A Pelta spends a squadron token at the beginning of the ship phase to activate All Fighters, Follow Me!

Does that special rule allowing fighters to get a speed boost for future squadron commands (that turn) stay in effect if the Pelta is destroyed after the first enemy activation?

The same goes for Entrapment Formation and Shields to Maximum .

I think yes the effect is still active. Other upgrade cards don't operate like this one. When Motti is destroyed, all your ships lose the buff because he must be in play to get it. The Fleet Commands don't really act like that because they don't reference themselves in the text. You just get the bonus for the entire round.

This can easily go both ways and I think FFG will state how it works when it is released.

I don't think there's a distinction between this and Motti. The effect comes from the card; when the card is removed from play, there is no source for the effect, so it stops applying.

I get your position, Ghoul, but I think it will go away with the Pelta. Also, though, FFG will surely clarify it.

But if you discard it, the card is considered no longer in play and you still get the effect for the entire round.

Per the RRG about Effects and Timing:

"When a card is discarded or flipped facedown, its effect is no longer active in the game."

So following the RRG, when you discard any FC to get the buff, you actually don't get anything because the card no longer has any effect. Kind of a silly thing FFG did here.

As soon as an upgrade leaves the table, it is no longer in play and no longer applies. Same here.

As soon as an upgrade leaves the table, it is no longer in play and no longer applies. Same here.

But all the FC upgrades say you can discard it for the effect.

As soon as an upgrade leaves the table, it is no longer in play and no longer applies. Same here.

But all the FC upgrades say you can discard it for the effect.

Interesting point. I would point out though that discarded upgrades are still nominally attached to the ship they came on. For example, if you discard Lando on your admonition, but then I kill admonition, I still get the 4 points for Lando.

As soon as an upgrade leaves the table, it is no longer in play and no longer applies. Same here.

But all the FC upgrades say you can discard it for the effect.

Interesting point. I would point out though that discarded upgrades are still nominally attached to the ship they came on. For example, if you discard Lando on your admonition, but then I kill admonition, I still get the 4 points for Lando.

This. "Discarded" isn't the same as "leaving play", so I don't think there's a logic issue here.

As soon as an upgrade leaves the table, it is no longer in play and no longer applies. Same here.

But all the FC upgrades say you can discard it for the effect.

Interesting point. I would point out though that discarded upgrades are still nominally attached to the ship they came on. For example, if you discard Lando on your admonition, but then I kill admonition, I still get the 4 points for Lando.

Well yes. But the RRG states that a discarded card is no longer in effect, not that you don't score points for it.

As soon as an upgrade leaves the table, it is no longer in play and no longer applies. Same here.

But all the FC upgrades say you can discard it for the effect.

Interesting point. I would point out though that discarded upgrades are still nominally attached to the ship they came on. For example, if you discard Lando on your admonition, but then I kill admonition, I still get the 4 points for Lando.

This. "Discarded" isn't the same as "leaving play", so I don't think there's a logic issue here.

The RRG still states the effect is no longer active in the game. So when you discard AFFM to get the speed boost, the card is considered discarded and would have no effect. It's a loop and I don't know how else to explain it to you.

You discard it for the effect, RRG says there is no effect because it is discarded.

This is why I believe FFG will have something with the Pelta saying once the effect is triggered, regardless of what happens to the ship or upgrade, you get to keep the effect.

GOLDEN RULES

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets.

In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

GOLDEN RULES

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets.

In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

So when the Pelta dies, do you lose the effect or does it stay? An argument can be made so the component, AFFM, overrules the loss of the ship, or since the ship is gone you lose the buff.

Where does it say that upgrade card effects are not in play when the ship is destroyed.

- The RRG.

What is ignored when a Card is providing a Contradictory effect? (Once activated at the start of the ship phase, its until end of round...)

- The RRG.

If you get it off, you get it off, and it applies to the end of the Round. The card is contradicting the Rulebook in saying that its not in play.

Ergo, you must disregard the RRG on the matter, due to the Golden Rules.

...

Ship Destroyed, Upgrade Card Discarded - doesn't matter. Both Mechanics are provided under the RRG, and they are Contradicted (until end of round) by the Card, and thus, the Card takes precedence.

...

Do I agree with it? Not entirely. But that seems about as cut and dry as I can make it... Trying to justify another stance makes my head hurt as I am starting to mentally re-write rules. Or rather, add rules exceptions where none exist at the moment... So I'm applying Occam's and going to go find some more IRN BRU...

GOLDEN RULES

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets.

In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

So when the Pelta dies, do you lose the effect or does it stay? An argument can be made so the component, AFFM, overrules the loss of the ship, or since the ship is gone you lose the buff.

I think you're making a logic jump there.

The card's having a discard effect doesn't prevent it from losing its effects in all cases when it leaves play. Just when it is discarded.

GOLDEN RULES

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets.

In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

So when the Pelta dies, do you lose the effect or does it stay? An argument can be made so the component, AFFM, overrules the loss of the ship, or since the ship is gone you lose the buff.

I think you're making a logic jump there.

The card's having a discard effect doesn't prevent it from losing its effects in all cases when it leaves play. Just when it is discarded.

And I think you've made one too...

The card says, once activated in the Ship Phase, it applies until end of Round.

In what circumstances does it say otherwise?

This is different to say, Motti, who has no defined timing on his effect, so obviously, it is lost when he's gone... I feel its that distinction that makes it different...

and as I mentioned above, I don't like it ... But I'm willing to live with it.

... and abuse the crap out of it, in some people's eyes.

Of course, I also havn't looked through all of my Cards to see if we have an existing precedence in opposition to my "ruling", of course... There probably is one. I've been so wrong recently...

GOLDEN RULES

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets.

In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

So when the Pelta dies, do you lose the effect or does it stay? An argument can be made so the component, AFFM, overrules the loss of the ship, or since the ship is gone you lose the buff.

I think you're making a logic jump there.

The card's having a discard effect doesn't prevent it from losing its effects in all cases when it leaves play. Just when it is discarded.

And I think you've made one too...

The card says, once activated in the Ship Phase, it applies until end of Round.

In what circumstances does it say otherwise?

It's a fair point. I think I just don't feel comfortable having an ongoing effect in play that's not documented anywhere on a card that's in play. Off the top of my head I think that there is no other case where a card is discarded to trigger an effect that is not resolved immediately.

GOLDEN RULES

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets.

In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

So when the Pelta dies, do you lose the effect or does it stay? An argument can be made so the component, AFFM, overrules the loss of the ship, or since the ship is gone you lose the buff.

I think you're making a logic jump there.

The card's having a discard effect doesn't prevent it from losing its effects in all cases when it leaves play. Just when it is discarded.

And I think you've made one too...

The card says, once activated in the Ship Phase, it applies until end of Round.

In what circumstances does it say otherwise?

It's a fair point. I think I just don't feel comfortable having an ongoing effect in play that's not documented anywhere on a card that's in play. Off the top of my head I think that there is no other case where a card is discarded to trigger an effect that is not resolved immediately.

That's why I think FFG will have a little card insert saying how the FC upgrades will work, just like they did for the flotillas. Seems easier than having to FAQ it and having all the confusion in the mean time.

It's a fair point. I think I just don't feel comfortable having an ongoing effect in play that's not documented anywhere on a card that's in play. Off the top of my head I think that there is no other case where a card is discarded to trigger an effect that is not resolved immediately.

This is also the core of my consternation and my refusal to "be happy" with the ruling, but that still seems to be.

I mean, if we look at Fleet Support as an incidence, then the Rules card is likely to just say "The following Symbol means Fleet command.' and leave it at that.

BUT

Mr. Gernes did relate in an email semi-recently that they were looking at having an FAQ out very quickly after release this time...

It's a fair point. I think I just don't feel comfortable having an ongoing effect in play that's not documented anywhere on a card that's in play. Off the top of my head I think that there is no other case where a card is discarded to trigger an effect that is not resolved immediately.

This is also the core of my consternation and my refusal to "be happy" with the ruling, but that still seems to be.

I mean, if we look at Fleet Support as an incidence, then the Rules card is likely to just say "The following Symbol means Fleet command.' and leave it at that.

Yeah, this is really the extent of my expectation if the do end up including an insert.

Mr. Gernes did relate in an email semi-recently that they were looking at having an FAQ out very quickly after release this time...

I super hope so, but I've been burned before...

I was under the impression that every card has its effect as long as it is in the game. Hence if the Pelta is destroyed, it is no longer in the game (unless Rieekan) nor are its upgrade card, so the effect should vanish.

I was under the impression that every card has its effect as long as it is in the game. Hence if the Pelta is destroyed, it is no longer in the game (unless Rieekan) nor are its upgrade card, so the effect should vanish.

The trick is, if you apply that universally, then what's the point of having the card say "or discard this card to do it...." - because if you discard it, its no longer in the game...

The only way it resolves in such a way that 1) the card is useable, and 2) the game is playable, is to remember the Golden Rule, and tell the RRG to suck it.

Hera is going to give us the same issue.

... Give 2 Squadrons Rogue.

Activate her First.

Go Shoot someone.

Die to counter.

...

Still have 2 Rogue Squadrons, as it is "until end of Phase."

I was under the impression that every card has its effect as long as it is in the game. Hence if the Pelta is destroyed, it is no longer in the game (unless Rieekan) nor are its upgrade card, so the effect should vanish.

If you went with Pelta first and kicked off the upgrade card AFFM (either with squad token or discarded the card) you still have kicked off the AFFM ability that stays in effect until the end of the round, doesn't matter is Pelta is destroyed or flies off the board (which is the same thing). the thing about all "other" cards up to this point is that those cards never said those cards last "until the end of the round" . go back to Dras's previous comments about Golden Rule etc...