Opening dozens of booster packs of a CCG in one sitting is therapeutic and makes you a better person. You are a savior to dozens of cards who have been doomed to exist in a foil wrapped prison. Be a better person. Free the cards.

If I could save more cards today, I would. I'm selfless in that way.

LOL

Starting with the Rey starter set, that gives you a 25 point army that is blue/yellow hero with 1 battlefield and 20 cards out of a needed 30 card (the rules do not say you can play with less for a full game). Given this, to build a legal deck from here, you only need 10 blue or yellow hero cards or grey cards that are not the third copies of ones already included in the starter to have a fully legal deck list. You have a legal set of characters with no room to add another character (but yes, you do have enough points to add another die by upgrading Finn to elite, but he is not pullable in boosters so to do that you either need a second starter or you just accept the 25 point army which is reasonable given that the minimum hero army that can't add more dice is 23 points). You have a battlefield.

Every pack gives you 1 rare or legendary, 1 uncommon, and 3 commons. These cards could be grey (I'll include battlefield here), red villain, blue villain, yellow villain, red hero, blue hero, or yellow hero. In the abstract, that is 7 card types, leaving 3/7 of pullable cards meeting the initial criteria of color/alignment to fit your deck. Beyond that, the grey cards could be battlefield, upgrade, support, or event (or in theory in the future character?), which leaves 3/4 (3/5) of these types actually able to fill out that deck in the abstract before analyzing any specific set. For blue hero or yellow hero cards, they could be character, upgrade, support, or event, which leaves 3/4 able to add to your deck in the abstract. This leaves in the abstract 1/7*3/4 (or 3/5) + 2/7*3/4 = 9/28 (or 33/140) of cards as useful for filling out this deck, or about 30% of cards. Meaning to build a legal deck you would need a little over 30 packs from any sets at least to finish this deck.

If we look at specifically the awakenings set, our numbers change slightly. There are 3 grey commons, of which they give you one copy each of 2 of them in the starter. There are 7 blue hero commons, they gave you zero. There are 6 yellow hero commons, they gave you one copy each of 2 of them. There are 53 commons in total. There are 4 grey uncommons, they gave one copy each of 2 of them. There are 4 blue hero uncommons, they gave you zero. There are 47 uncommons in total. There are 5 yellow uncommons and they gave you 1. There are 7 grey rares, they gave you 1 copy each of 2 of them. There are 2 blue non-character hero rares and 3 yellow non-character rares. There are 47 rares in total and 5 out of 6 packs gives you 1 rare. There are 2 blue non-character hero legendaries and 1 yellow non-character hero legendary. There are 17 legendaries in total and only 1 in every 6 packs.

Roughly 1 in any 4 commons could be a common (3 commons per booster) that can fit into this deck, 1 in any 4 uncommon can fit into this deck, 1 in any 4 rare (.83 rated per booster pack) can fit, and roughly 1 in 6 legendaries (.17 legendary per booster pack) can fit (and every time you open a card you can use it reduces the odds of you opening a future card you can use). So the very rough estimate is needing to buy roughly 9 booster packs.

You forgot red blue yellow and grey neutrals. They go both ways. That reduces the number of packs needed.

Really? Most Legendary Characters I'm seeing are priced either the same as a Starter Set or higher.

Why are we talking about legendaries when all of the non-unique characters are $3 a piece, and almost everything else is only slightly more than that?

Why are we talking about legendaries when all of the non-unique characters are $3 a piece, and almost everything else is only slightly more than that?

I figured that "any combination of characters that you want" would include some of those, what with them all being fan favourites and all.

Really? Most Legendary Characters I'm seeing are priced either the same as a Starter Set or higher.

Some of the prices may be influenced by fans and collectors. There could be people buying dice just because it is Star Wars that have no intention of ever playing the game. Especially Vader, Han, and Luke. However, I would think this would be more of a temporary bump than a permanent price increase.

The prices are primarily driven by supply and demand. If you are patient you can expect many to drop in price when supply is greater than demand. Some like Vader may always demand a premium price.

Why are we talking about legendaries when all of the non-unique characters are $3 a piece, and almost everything else is only slightly more than that?

I figured that "any combination of characters that you want" would include some of those, what with them all being fan favourites and all.

You keep leaving out one very important word...

trading only works if players get something worth trading. if you dodge all the characters in your store's boxes who exactly will want to trade for a non character rare for a character rare.

Ummm...some of THE best and MOST valuable cards are not characters themselves. But that's in general. Bik and Scout aren't the most sought after like Qui-Gon and Flamethrower, but they're still great cards.

Destiny is the first collectible game I've bought into in over a decade. I hate the format, so the fact that I'm even willing to give it a chance speaks volumes for the quality of the game. However, the ugly reality of the collectible format is already rearing it's head. I've bought 2x Kylo and 1x Rey starters and 6x boosters, a total of $65, and don't have enough product to make anything close to a solidly competitive deck.

Not sure what you're trying to accomplish, but I can easily make a solid competitive deck with what you have in just 3 starters, let alone adding 6 boosters.

Trading should not be required as a bare minimum for playing the game. People should be trading to complete collections, or build something they actually want, rather than as a requirement to play their first real game.

I can get on board with this. One of the things I think they should have done with starters is for $20 make it a complete 27-30 point elite characters, a solid 30 card deck, and 1 booster for randomness.

2) Cards found in the Starters SHOULD NOT be found in boosters. Include 2 of each non-unique card and characters should be packaged with maximum amount of dice that the card can play.

This is the only gripe I agree with. Either make them ALL included or NONE at all. If I'm going to end up with a Rey's Staff or BB-8 extras, I should be able to end up with Force Throw/Mind Probe/Finn as extras.

~D

You keep leaving out one very important word...

Jeez, I was just curious as to whether things were cheap around you for some reason.

Really? Most Legendary Characters I'm seeing are priced either the same as a Starter Set or higher.

Yep, starter = $15. Legendary is 1 out of 6 packs (factor in random when buying individual packs, but I bought a case and got 36 legendaries in total so it works) = $18. So sounds about right. Most Legendaries are going to cost you $15+. But again, what do you want to do, buy $15 in packs (so umm 5 packs) with a random chance or just buy the legendary?

---------------------------------------------

Heck, I opened 108 packs (plus some random packs I've won) and I got 4 Vaders but not a single Force Choke. WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF RANDOM!

If you don't like the idea of random, then don't buy random.

~D

I'm betting they don't. This game's release methodology reminds me too much of Dreamblade and, to a lesser extent, Monsterpocalypse. Dreamblade was a huge hit and had local tourneys offering tens of thousands of dollars in prizes. And the one night it was just gone. That's because both games "target audience" was the rich collector and not the gamer. A casual gamer isn't going to ignore the rules just so he can use what he has; he's going to drop the game like dog poo and get something else. Games don't succeed by treating the casual gamer like crap. When collecting becomes more important than playing, your on the road of failure - that's what Dreamblade did. Sure, Magic makes enough money just from its professional circuit to cover everything. But you can't duplicate that kind of thing anymore; the gaming world is just too different.

I bought both starters and two complete booster boxes. Including Kylo Ren, I have three named Villain characters none of whom are yellow. If I spent over $200 on Magic or Dicemasters I'd be doing pretty well. For Destiny? Barely passable.The game revolves around characters; there needs to be an easier way to get them. In Magic, if basic lands were Mythic Rares then the game would fail and deservedly so.

CCG's are not even remotely based on trading. That's because 95% of a collectible game's content (at least) has no trade value. Neither FFG, nor any company, makes moneys off of sales of its product on any secondary market. Making the use of a secondary market a requirement for play is asinine. There aren't enough rich collector gamers to make that strategy succeed just like it hasn't worked for any game in the last decade that's attempted it. It's one thing to open a Magic booster, get a Red rare and sigh as I'm not playing a deck with red in it. It's another to open a Destiny booster and get a legendary that I can't even play with, no matter what my playstyle is, and even after spending another $100, still can't use it. This is most definitely not how CCG's work (not the ones that have succeeded anyway).

No game has ever succeed more than briefly by treating the casual gamer like crap. There is nothing in Destiny that's going to entice the casual gamer to stick around.

lolwut

Magic doesn't succeed because of the pro tour, you silly goose. It succeeds because people buy boosters. Some things really are that simple, but hey, you know what? I'm actually okay with people who don't know the first thing about Magic telling me how things are, even if they're apt to complain. That means I get to laugh and educate, so it's a double win. Now please, someone tell me more about how the most suceessful business model on the market is doing it wrong.

You clearly didn't read my post as you just made my point for me.

Right now, Magic makes enough money from the "pro's" that, even if everyone else stopped buying, it would still be financially viable. People don't buy individual boosters; they buy booster boxes. Even casual players rarely buy individual boosters as they typically only collect for a couple of sets and get enough cards from Intro and premade decks to cover how often they play. When I order 10 boxes of Magic boosters for the store, I open one for individual booster sales. That box will still be a third full by the time the other 9 boxes have sold out.

Magic is hugely successful but not for the reasons it was back in '93. There was so little faith in the idea of a collectible game that asked Steve Jackson Games for investment money (which he didn't give). At GenCon '93, we were trading Mox's and Black Lotus cards like candy because no one had really grasped how the model would work. That quickly changed. But the gaming market in 2016 bears little resemblance to the gaming market of 1993.

Your entire "arguement" is based on a point that I never made while ignoring the ones that I did. Destiny is not following the Magic example; it's following the Dreamblade example. And that has never worked (unless you consider being a cash cow for 6 months before epic failing into oblivion a success).

Really? Most Legendary Characters I'm seeing are priced either the same as a Starter Set or higher.

Yep, starter = $15. Legendary is 1 out of 6 packs (factor in random when buying individual packs, but I bought a case and got 36 legendaries in total so it works) = $18. So sounds about right. Most Legendaries are going to cost you $15+. But again, what do you want to do, buy $15 in packs (so umm 5 packs) with a random chance or just buy the legendary?

---------------------------------------------

Heck, I opened 108 packs (plus some random packs I've won) and I got 4 Vaders but not a single Force Choke. WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF RANDOM!

If you don't like the idea of random, then don't buy random.

~D

But FFG needs people to buy random in order for the game to succeed. FFG makes no money off of individual sales on eBay. But people are only going to buy random if it's a worthwhile investment.

You keep leaving out one very important word...

Jeez, I was just curious as to whether things were cheap around you for some reason.

Ah, my mistake. No, I buy online just like everyone else. People should be keeping their eyes peeled for vendors to start selling Destiny on TCG Player, that'll really speed up market saturation.

I'm betting they don't. This game's release methodology reminds me too much of Dreamblade and, to a lesser extent, Monsterpocalypse. Dreamblade was a huge hit and had local tourneys offering tens of thousands of dollars in prizes. And the one night it was just gone. That's because both games "target audience" was the rich collector and not the gamer. A casual gamer isn't going to ignore the rules just so he can use what he has; he's going to drop the game like dog poo and get something else. Games don't succeed by treating the casual gamer like crap. When collecting becomes more important than playing, your on the road of failure - that's what Dreamblade did. Sure, Magic makes enough money just from its professional circuit to cover everything. But you can't duplicate that kind of thing anymore; the gaming world is just too different.

I bought both starters and two complete booster boxes. Including Kylo Ren, I have three named Villain characters none of whom are yellow. If I spent over $200 on Magic or Dicemasters I'd be doing pretty well. For Destiny? Barely passable.The game revolves around characters; there needs to be an easier way to get them. In Magic, if basic lands were Mythic Rares then the game would fail and deservedly so.

CCG's are not even remotely based on trading. That's because 95% of a collectible game's content (at least) has no trade value. Neither FFG, nor any company, makes moneys off of sales of its product on any secondary market. Making the use of a secondary market a requirement for play is asinine. There aren't enough rich collector gamers to make that strategy succeed just like it hasn't worked for any game in the last decade that's attempted it. It's one thing to open a Magic booster, get a Red rare and sigh as I'm not playing a deck with red in it. It's another to open a Destiny booster and get a legendary that I can't even play with, no matter what my playstyle is, and even after spending another $100, still can't use it. This is most definitely not how CCG's work (not the ones that have succeeded anyway).

No game has ever succeed more than briefly by treating the casual gamer like crap. There is nothing in Destiny that's going to entice the casual gamer to stick around.

lolwut

Magic doesn't succeed because of the pro tour, you silly goose. It succeeds because people buy boosters. Some things really are that simple, but hey, you know what? I'm actually okay with people who don't know the first thing about Magic telling me how things are, even if they're apt to complain. That means I get to laugh and educate, so it's a double win. Now please, someone tell me more about how the most suceessful business model on the market is doing it wrong.

You clearly didn't read my post as you just made my point for me.

Right now, Magic makes enough money from the "pro's" that, even if everyone else stopped buying, it would still be financially viable. People don't buy individual boosters; they buy booster boxes. Even casual players rarely buy individual boosters as they typically only collect for a couple of sets and get enough cards from Intro and premade decks to cover how often they play. When I order 10 boxes of Magic boosters for the store, I open one for individual booster sales. That box will still be a third full by the time the other 9 boxes have sold out.

Magic is hugely successful but not for the reasons it was back in '93. There was so little faith in the idea of a collectible game that asked Steve Jackson Games for investment money (which he didn't give). At GenCon '93, we were trading Mox's and Black Lotus cards like candy because no one had really grasped how the model would work. That quickly changed. But the gaming market in 2016 bears little resemblance to the gaming market of 1993.

Your entire "arguement" is based on a point that I never made while ignoring the ones that I did. Destiny is not following the Magic example; it's following the Dreamblade example. And that has never worked (unless you consider being a cash cow for 6 months before epic failing into oblivion a success).

Elucidate me. How does Wizards make money off of the pro tour, how much do they make, and how does that number compare to their sales figures for sealed product? While you're at it, I wouldn't mind an explanation on how you'd be doing "pretty well" in Magic with less than two booster boxes worth of product. Fifteen mythics a set, an average of four per box... you're not even guaranteed one of a specific card, let alone a set of four.

you're not even guaranteed one of a specific card, let alone a set of four.

I think that will help Destiny too. You can only use TWO cards in a deck and the deck is ONLY 30 cards. It's not 60 or any size. You also only need to get that dice character TWO times to get it to Elite status (if you even want elite status). Magic and so many other games have a limit of 4 or no limit at all. Even though Vader and Han are highly sought after, you only need to get TWO of them. That's super cheap compared to what MtG or other CCGs required.

~D

I think all of these conversations on comparisons to other games is great, but don't forget to include the "Star Wars Factor". This game will do well for at least the first couple years based on movie (Sequel Trilogy and stand-alone) craze alone.

Admittedly the starter packs need the most work. They need to be tournie ready on their own. Maybe allow people to add a couple boosters to it, but the core starter should be enough to play the base game. Most other collectible games are like that.

Really? Most Legendary Characters I'm seeing are priced either the same as a Starter Set or higher.

Yep, starter = $15. Legendary is 1 out of 6 packs (factor in random when buying individual packs, but I bought a case and got 36 legendaries in total so it works) = $18. So sounds about right. Most Legendaries are going to cost you $15+. But again, what do you want to do, buy $15 in packs (so umm 5 packs) with a random chance or just buy the legendary?

---------------------------------------------

Heck, I opened 108 packs (plus some random packs I've won) and I got 4 Vaders but not a single Force Choke. WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF RANDOM!

If you don't like the idea of random, then don't buy random.

~D

But FFG needs people to buy random in order for the game to succeed. FFG makes no money off of individual sales on eBay. But people are only going to buy random if it's a worthwhile investment.

You forgot red blue yellow and grey neutrals. They go both ways. That reduces the number of packs needed.

You are correct, I did forget those, and I forgot that Finn allows the use of a couple villain cards. So Rey/Finn will need even less packs to become a legal deck.

Admittedly the starter packs need the most work. They need to be tournie ready on their own. Maybe allow people to add a couple boosters to it, but the core starter should be enough to play the base game. Most other collectible games are like that.

This is FFG's standard core set model for most of their "installment" game (X-Wing, LCGs). One core set/starter gives you a taste of the game in an abbreviated format, but you need to buy two if you want the full experience. Two Rey or Kylo starters gives you the content you need to put together a pretty decent deck and get close to 30 points worth of characters, as well as two copies of a lot of solid cards/dice. It's not a bad model (it does keep the pricing of single core sets relatively low).

This is a great thread! Here is my perspective and I have never played or collected a CCG, unless you count Hearthstone (and I got bored with that and stopped playing 6 months ago).

I know of no one else who is going to be playing the game so I have purchased 4 starter packs, 2 hero and 2 villain, for myself, my two kids and my brother as Christmas presents. I have also ordered one booster box for us all to open and share on Christmas day, so we will get 9 booster packs each. We won't have awesome decks but we will only be playing each other and will swap what we can't use to each other. I expect that I will buy more packs over time but we will only ever be playing each other so I don't feel any rush.

Total cost so far AUD$232. That is a lot. I could have bought two expensive board games, but I have plenty of those so this is something new to try. Still, it is much more expensive than getting an LCG or any other gaming experience. Luckily I have used my pocket money so I don't need to disclose the full cost to my other half.

Only time will tell if I think it was worth getting into.

Thoughts after 3 games are that it is a blast to play. I've seen luck and skill be equal factors in the games I've played, especially the last one. Opponent rolled 5 specials on 6 of their die, and I had 4 blanks on 5 of mine...still managed to pull ahead through crafty maneuvering and win the game though.

This is a great thread! Here is my perspective and I have never played or collected a CCG, unless you count Hearthstone (and I got bored with that and stopped playing 6 months ago).

I know of no one else who is going to be playing the game so I have purchased 4 starter packs, 2 hero and 2 villain, for myself, my two kids and my brother as Christmas presents. I have also ordered one booster box for us all to open and share on Christmas day, so we will get 9 booster packs each. We won't have awesome decks but we will only be playing each other and will swap what we can't use to each other. I expect that I will buy more packs over time but we will only ever be playing each other so I don't feel any rush.

Total cost so far AUD$232. That is a lot. I could have bought two expensive board games, but I have plenty of those so this is something new to try. Still, it is much more expensive than getting an LCG or any other gaming experience. Luckily I have used my pocket money so I don't need to disclose the full cost to my other half.

Only time will tell if I think it was worth getting into.

Well, I hope you guys have a wonderful Christmas morning. Don't let anyone deprive you and yours of the joy of cracking packs!

I'm satisfied with the game and distribution model, just not the current supply.

However, I hVe been able to open a gravity feed & was happy with the pulls.

I bought one of each starter which I think is the way to maximize your chance of being able to use what you pull in boosters. Buying more starters, augment the risks of pulling cards you will not use as the second starter do not bring new colors and will increase the risks of having more than 2 copies of some cards.

After that I opened 7 boosters. Out of those 35 cards, I got 11 that I can use directly in Kilo and 11 that I can use directly in Rey. I got 2 battlefields that can also be used. So that's already 24 out of 35

So I am left with 11 cards that I cannot put directly in the starters.

But of those, 5 are red cards for heroes and 3 are heroes character which includes one red rebel trooper. So using this red character gives me access to all those 5 remaining heroes cards.

So I am left with 3 cards that I cannot use at all as they are yellow villain cards.

Basically with one of each starter you have a very good chance to be able to use most of the cards you drew except:

- heroes red cards if you have not drawn a hero red character. (That's 2 legendaries,2 rares, 5 uncommons and 6 commons = 15 cards)

- villains yellow cards if you have not drawn a villain yellow character (That's 1 legendary, 3 rares, 5 uncommpons and 6 commons = 15 cards)

- you have more than 2 copies of a deck card.

- you drew duplicates battlefields

- you drew more than 2 times a unique character

What is difficult to asses is the risk to draw a hero red character and a villain yellow character that you would like to use but which force you to remove one of the starter character to respect the 30 points limits and leave you in a situation where you do not have enough cards of the correct color to fill your deck.

From my own experience most of the cards in the starters are almost necessary to have 2 copies of, Lightsaber, Force Throw, Mind Probe, Use the Force, etc. These cards are much more valuable than playing a character you want but do not have the cards to build a deck for.

In my opinion the starter decks are just as balanced/capable as most of the decks i've been able to build with a whole booster box with good pulls.