Truth is, collectible is a garbage format for players, always has been. It benefits only the publisher by forcing players to buy product they don't need in order to (maybe) get the stuff they want. Yes, trading alleviates this somewhat but in order to build up decent trade stock you'll be buying a lot of stuff you don't need and can't trade off.

Destiny is the first collectible game I've bought into in over a decade. I hate the format, so the fact that I'm even willing to give it a chance speaks volumes for the quality of the game. However, the ugly reality of the collectible format is already rearing it's head. I've bought 2x Kylo and 1x Rey starters and 6x boosters, a total of $65, and don't have enough product to make anything close to a solidly competitive deck.

I hope that FFG at least a considers releasing more fixed-content packs in the future to offset the drawbacks of the purely collectible content. It boggles my mind that after pioneering the tremendously successful and all-around superior LCG format that they chose to return to CCG.

I call BS on this, on a couple of points. You are blaming the collectible format for your failure to get what you wanted/needed to play "a solidly competitive deck." Truth be told - and I apologize for the harsh tone here - the mistake you made was spending money on boosters off the shelf. You can just as easily - and more effectively - get what you need by purchasing the cards on the secondary market, or by buying a booster box where the distribution patterns are far less random and you know you are getting 6 legendaries. Buying random packs was dumb in Magic and it's dumb in this game too. Save your money and buy a box for $90-100 instead.

Secondly, the LCG format is a collectible format in its own right, it's just that FFG has managed to fool many people into believing it is not. I play X-Wing, and I know you have to buy everything to keep up. I have had to buy several ships in multiples to get cards that I need to keep my fleet competitive even though I know I will never use those particular ships. And those ships cost a helluva lot more than $2.99!

Truth is, collectible is a garbage format for players, always has been. It benefits only the publisher by forcing players to buy product they don't need in order to (maybe) get the stuff they want. Yes, trading alleviates this somewhat but in order to build up decent trade stock you'll be buying a lot of stuff you don't need and can't trade off.

Destiny is the first collectible game I've bought into in over a decade. I hate the format, so the fact that I'm even willing to give it a chance speaks volumes for the quality of the game. However, the ugly reality of the collectible format is already rearing it's head. I've bought 2x Kylo and 1x Rey starters and 6x boosters, a total of $65, and don't have enough product to make anything close to a solidly competitive deck.

I hope that FFG at least a considers releasing more fixed-content packs in the future to offset the drawbacks of the purely collectible content. It boggles my mind that after pioneering the tremendously successful and all-around superior LCG format that they chose to return to CCG.

I call BS on this, on a couple of points. You are blaming the collectible format for your failure to get what you wanted/needed to play "a solidly competitive deck." Truth be told - and I apologize for the harsh tone here - the mistake you made was spending money on boosters off the shelf. You can just as easily - and more effectively - get what you need by purchasing the cards on the secondary market, or by buying a booster box where the distribution patterns are far less random and you know you are getting 6 legendaries. Buying random packs was dumb in Magic and it's dumb in this game too. Save your money and buy a box for $90-100 instead.

Secondly, the LCG format is a collectible format in its own right, it's just that FFG has managed to fool many people into believing it is not. I play X-Wing, and I know you have to buy everything to keep up. I have had to buy several ships in multiples to get cards that I need to keep my fleet competitive even though I know I will never use those particular ships. And those ships cost a helluva lot more than $2.99!

I was NOT gonna play Destiny due to TCG/CCG but it was so much fun that I broke down and am addicted.

1 - Boosters are like eating potato chips... there must be a science to how they are made to optimize the addiction. I don't mind buying a few packs (like 3 or 4) at my FLGS when I visit. That way, I'm pleasantly happy if I pull a Legendary. If not, I did not statistically do poorly. LOL

2 - FACT: This is cheaper than playing MtG.

Heck, I'm pretty confident that somebody is gonna win a Regional with a "weenie" deck... maybe 4x First Order Trooper rush vs. eVader. Jango looks pretty good and he's rare.

3 - My theory is that FFG is making more money off the CCG model then if they lost player base due to CCG. I'm sure they did analyses and were OK with acceptable losses. I mean, they did go with CCG model.

4 - Now, if your goal is to play every possible deck... well, your wallet is gonna cry even more.

Without knowing what is down the pipeline, I think the Starters serve their exact purpose. Offer an inexpensive option to try the game out. Now, ideally, you and a friend will buy a copy of each starter and play the game. If you decide that you enjoy what Destiny has to offer, you can buy into the game after that and after doing your research.

Will there be sealed decks later on? Maybe. But I can't blame FF for putting out a product that encourages the player to go out and buy and trade to make a 30 card deck. I think most people who are not mainstream CCG'ers would buy these sealed decks and not ever buy boosters, being content with their premade 30 card decks. There is no profit in that for asmodee, and how many times do you want to play against the same bland decks over and over again?!

If you bought the starter decks/packs, you have a jumpstart to build a deck. so if your friend and yourself purchase 8-10 booster packs each, just under 40 bucks each, you should have plenty of cards to build, and trade back and forth to build 2 fun decks. I assume this is the situation because if you are the only one in your area to play the game...you might want to look at something else to play that other people actually play.

To me, this game could not survive as a LCG. If were just cards? sure. But with Cards AND dice, a LCG starter with 200 cards and 100 dice would cost significantly more to the point that awakenings would have to have a smaller set list, or expect the starter box to be over $100 retail, in my opinion. Then, to get access to playsets of all cards (because we all know FFG and their distribution model for LCG's), you would have to buy two starter boxes, and you are already approaching the cost of 2 booster boxes. So do you want a $30 entry point (both starters), or a $100 entry point? IMO, the game would fail in an instant due to the entry barrier if it was a LCG.

Also...why the heck would FFG put out TWO LCG's for star wars? that does not make any business sense to me. I think its great that Star Wars fans have so many options to pick from FFG. There's just about every game format available now that has the Star Wars official name all over it. It a great time to be a fan.

Now, if you decide to leap into the Collectability of Destiny, You SHOULD know that you cannot just buy a handful of packs and have a high-tier deck. It's just not going to happen. Either you clearly did not do enough research, or you have Bantha Poodoo between your ears. You should expect to buy anywhere from 2-3 boxes (and a little bit of trading) to get what you want, and to build multiple decks. You should also expect to have countless number of hours of fun deck building and testing your decks. For me personally, I spend probably 70% of my time with destiny studying the cards and deck building, and the rest playing.

Fantasy Flight is very clear on what market it is going after, and I think they are hitting the nail on the head with this one. Is there stuff they could do better? heck yeah! but overall I think the game has tons of promise and I trust FFG way more than WizKids and UpperDeck, to support the product correctly. After Star Wars Pocket Models, I never bought a WIZKIDS game ever again, and UpperDeck is getting there real quickly with how bad they are supporting VS 2PCG.

Truth is, collectible is a garbage format for players, always has been. It benefits only the publisher by forcing players to buy product they don't need in order to (maybe) get the stuff they want. Yes, trading alleviates this somewhat but in order to build up decent trade stock you'll be buying a lot of stuff you don't need and can't trade off.

Destiny is the first collectible game I've bought into in over a decade. I hate the format, so the fact that I'm even willing to give it a chance speaks volumes for the quality of the game. However, the ugly reality of the collectible format is already rearing it's head. I've bought 2x Kylo and 1x Rey starters and 6x boosters, a total of $65, and don't have enough product to make anything close to a solidly competitive deck.

I hope that FFG at least a considers releasing more fixed-content packs in the future to offset the drawbacks of the purely collectible content. It boggles my mind that after pioneering the tremendously successful and all-around superior LCG format that they chose to return to CCG.

I call BS on this, on a couple of points. You are blaming the collectible format for your failure to get what you wanted/needed to play "a solidly competitive deck." Truth be told - and I apologize for the harsh tone here - the mistake you made was spending money on boosters off the shelf. You can just as easily - and more effectively - get what you need by purchasing the cards on the secondary market, or by buying a booster box where the distribution patterns are far less random and you know you are getting 6 legendaries. Buying random packs was dumb in Magic and it's dumb in this game too. Save your money and buy a box for $90-100 instead.

Secondly, the LCG format is a collectible format in its own right, it's just that FFG has managed to fool many people into believing it is not. I play X-Wing, and I know you have to buy everything to keep up. I have had to buy several ships in multiples to get cards that I need to keep my fleet competitive even though I know I will never use those particular ships. And those ships cost a helluva lot more than $2.99!

So your defense of the CCG model is "don't give FFG your money, it's dumb to buy boosters, just buy what you want from the secondary market."

Thanks for making my point about what a terrible model CCG is better than I did

Look, when the best workaround to a distribution model is to bypass it completely and make use of a secondhand market that is more cost-effective and consumer-friendly, there is a problem with that model.

The CCG model doesn't need defending; the proof, as they say, is in the pudding.

I guess those that don't like the CCG model are either really old, too young, or poor.

NOTHING beats the excitement of opening packs of randomness with the chance of scoring that BIG card.

And yes, it's gambling...without actually "gambling" I guess hahaha. But the 90's OWNED CCGs and nothing was more exciting than going to your local card shop and opening a pack of cards with the excitement of what was wrapped in the pack you either just grabbed from the top or shuffled through the stacks to get something near the bottom.

Everyone now just wants everything and instant.

PATIENCE YOUNG ONES!!

~D

Truth is, collectible is a garbage format for players, always has been. It benefits only the publisher by forcing players to buy product they don't need in order to (maybe) get the stuff they want. Yes, trading alleviates this somewhat but in order to build up decent trade stock you'll be buying a lot of stuff you don't need and can't trade off.

Destiny is the first collectible game I've bought into in over a decade. I hate the format, so the fact that I'm even willing to give it a chance speaks volumes for the quality of the game. However, the ugly reality of the collectible format is already rearing it's head. I've bought 2x Kylo and 1x Rey starters and 6x boosters, a total of $65, and don't have enough product to make anything close to a solidly competitive deck.

I hope that FFG at least a considers releasing more fixed-content packs in the future to offset the drawbacks of the purely collectible content. It boggles my mind that after pioneering the tremendously successful and all-around superior LCG format that they chose to return to CCG.

I call BS on this, on a couple of points. You are blaming the collectible format for your failure to get what you wanted/needed to play "a solidly competitive deck." Truth be told - and I apologize for the harsh tone here - the mistake you made was spending money on boosters off the shelf. You can just as easily - and more effectively - get what you need by purchasing the cards on the secondary market, or by buying a booster box where the distribution patterns are far less random and you know you are getting 6 legendaries. Buying random packs was dumb in Magic and it's dumb in this game too. Save your money and buy a box for $90-100 instead.

Secondly, the LCG format is a collectible format in its own right, it's just that FFG has managed to fool many people into believing it is not. I play X-Wing, and I know you have to buy everything to keep up. I have had to buy several ships in multiples to get cards that I need to keep my fleet competitive even though I know I will never use those particular ships. And those ships cost a helluva lot more than $2.99!

So your defense of the CCG model is "don't give FFG your money, it's dumb to buy boosters, just buy what you want from the secondary market."

Thanks for making my point about what a terrible model CCG is better than I did

Look, when the best workaround to a distribution model is to bypass it completely and make use of a secondhand market that is more cost-effective and consumer-friendly, there is a problem with that model.

There is no problem. Magic has been operating with this same model for years. It's all about understanding printing and distribution (ie 6 legendaries per box). In other games - and the only reason I don't know if this is the exact same case in this game - each box is one cut sheet of cards. Each sheet generally has a full set of commons and uncommons and a set number of rares and super-rares/mythics/legendaries. It has to be done this way so that packs sort correctly on the feeder.

It's not "dumb" to buy boosters. It's dumb to buy them randomly off the shelf where you don't know what the distribution pattern is. Buy a box. Get the guaranteed number of legends. Don't treat it like a lottery ticket. We used to call Magic packs "booster scratch-offs," because that is basically what they are.

Really? Most Legendary Characters I'm seeing are priced either the same as a Starter Set or higher.

Yep, starter = $15. Legendary is 1 out of 6 packs (factor in random when buying individual packs, but I bought a case and got 36 legendaries in total so it works) = $18. So sounds about right. Most Legendaries are going to cost you $15+. But again, what do you want to do, buy $15 in packs (so umm 5 packs) with a random chance or just buy the legendary?

---------------------------------------------

Heck, I opened 108 packs (plus some random packs I've won) and I got 4 Vaders but not a single Force Choke. WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF RANDOM!

If you don't like the idea of random, then don't buy random.

~D

But FFG needs people to buy random in order for the game to succeed. FFG makes no money off of individual sales on eBay. But people are only going to buy random if it's a worthwhile investment.

FFG made its money when it sold the product to the distributor.

I guess those that don't like the CCG model are either really old, too young, or poor.

NOTHING beats the excitement of opening packs of randomness with the chance of scoring that BIG card.

And yes, it's gambling...without actually "gambling" I guess hahaha. But the 90's OWNED CCGs and nothing was more exciting than going to your local card shop and opening a pack of cards with the excitement of what was wrapped in the pack you either just grabbed from the top or shuffled through the stacks to get something near the bottom.

Everyone now just wants everything and instant.

PATIENCE YOUNG ONES!!

~D

And even that wasn't entirely a new concept at the time, just maybe a little new for the gaming industry.

It's just taking the same distribution model that Topps, etc. were using for baseball cards for years and years before that. Buy a pack or two hoping for that highly touted rookie card that's really popular.

I guess those that don't like the CCG model are either really old, too young, or poor.

NOTHING beats the excitement of opening packs of randomness with the chance of scoring that BIG card.

Apparently, we're also not gambling addicts.

I guess those that don't like the CCG model are either really old, too young, or poor.

NOTHING beats the excitement of opening packs of randomness with the chance of scoring that BIG card.

Apparently, we're also not gambling addicts.

Or savvy investors.

My feelings and feedback are I love this game and I love the model. Being part of an active community is awesome. My local shop did a midnight release on the 1st because of how successful the launch event was. Just had the first tournament on the 7th with 22 people. I purchased 1 Kylo and Rey starter at the launch event to test the game and see if I would like it. I placed an order for a box on the spot after playing my 1st game. At the release event I made over 25 trades and put an bought another box. So my investment is about 250 bucks, However, I sold a bunch of my cards for around 300 bucks. At this time I do not have 2 of every single card, I am missing 1 of 8 different cards to have a complete set. I know this is not everyones experience but things are what you make them. When I opened a Luke from my 1st box I opted not to lock it away like it was my precious and traded it. When i got home and looked over my cards I came to the conclusion I didn't like force choke and I decided to sell it. This entire experience is why I like TCG model.

There has been so much back and forth in this thread I am not going to jump in the middle of it. You can take my experience as you will, I am looking forward to the next wave of product so the community can grow even more.

I guess those that don't like the CCG model are either really old, too young, or poor.

NOTHING beats the excitement of opening packs of randomness with the chance of scoring that BIG card.

Apparently, we're also not gambling addicts.

Or savvy investors.

I guess being a "savvy investor" isn't really a quality I'm interested in when it comes to my dice and card games based on space wizards from a galaxy far, far away.

Some people enjoy the random element of a sealed booster.

Some people don't, and thus choose to circumvent the entire distribution model of a game.

Whatever. S'cool.

Right. It's the people who are neither of those things that we're addressing in this thread. They don't like the distribution model, but also can't be bothered to navigate the market for some reason.

We'll leave aside for the moment what people should expect or know, because it's honestly irrelevant.

What we're talking about here is the new player experience. Simply put, does someone who makes a small initial purchase of Destiny feel compelled to keep playing it? If someone drops $65, do they walk away from the game feeling like it's a good value, or frustrated that half the stuff they pulled is completely useless?

All the "They're playing the wrong game" arguments are missing the point. The point of the OP, and that several of us are trying to make, is that we want people playing Destiny . Arguing that frustrated players should just leave the game, or aren't working hard enough to deserve to play, are stupid. They do nothing but constrain the player base.

I know a large number of players who won't touch the game because it's collectible. I know more who might have, but looked at the collectability (Legendaries especially) and decided not to bother. Pretty much everyone I do know who's playing is holding their nose about the distribution model in order to do so. That's not good, because it means that we get fewer players overall, and those players are more fragile - if a release gets the balance out of whack I'll abandon the game far faster than I would with an LCG.

But even then, I'm not really saying it has to go full LCG - I don't think that would be realistic, though whether that's because of production costs or our new Asmodee overlords I'm not sure. But there are a number of things they could easily do that would leave the rest of the system in place while smoothing the new player experience. Several were mentioned previously - get rid of the overlap between starters and boosters. Make the starters full size, rather than reduced. I think a 2 player starter would have been a good thing. Make at least some characters available in fixed packs, with both dice for them so that people have an easier time building to the deck/theme they want.

I'm honestly not sure why anyone would think this is a bad idea, other than just being a **** to new players. Smoothing the experience so it's as easy as possible to get into the game is a win for everyone.

I have to admit, I made a huge purchase today (I heard about the game months ago, but just today remembered to ask LGS if it was out). I purchased 2 starters, and a whole CASE of boosters. It was a lot of money. For other collectible games, you would expect to make dozens or even a hundred unique teams for playing the game (Star Wars Miniatures would be a case, with like 60 miniatures, Heroclix would be 50 miniatures, Dice Masters would be 180 dice with matching cards). I am still at work, and have just finished reading all of the directions and the Card list, and I have to admit, I am REALLY disappointed that with only ~20 playable characters, the likelihood that I will have 2 Luke Skywalker dice in my packs is close to zero. Now, I understand what the rarity is, but truthfully, there is no reason they couldn't have had multiple versions of the big 12 characters (Luke, Darth, Han, Leia, Rey, Yoda, Kylo, Finn, Poe, Chewie, Padme, Palpatine).

If they made the packs playable (at least 1 character per pack), with three dice and a guaranteed character in the pack (maybe even a guaranteed legendary, making the rarity 1-3 instead of 1-6) and making the packs $9 or whatever, people would not be as unhappy with the unplayable $20 that they just spent to get into a game.

Example: a sealed could be 2 boosters - Play the characters (you will have at least 2) all your cards (you will have at most 28), and you would have a few extra dice to use with your characters.

If you add on top of that card restrictions (cannot use villain cards with heroes and vice versa, cannot use blue cards with yellow, yellow cards with blue, et cetera) you have a problematic cost point to get into the game as well as a very limited play possibility even if you own every single resource in the game.

I think that releases of starters with desired characters would alleviate this by a heck of a lot.

So, I have opened my boosters and gotten my 6 legendary dice, and however many rare dice, and I fortunately could make 4 more or less "Good" decks of cards.

4 decks with $120. Not a lot of options for what I was expecting to be able to customize and change with dozens of variations.

It truly is my belief that if nothing changes, people like me will say "****, that's a lot of money for not much" and walk away from the game.

The worst part is, though I purchased enough product to get 5-12 non-character dice that are usable for each deck, there will be somebody who could spend $60 on this game (let's say Rey starter and 8 boosters) and get so many villain and red cards that they wouldn't be able to actually play the game.

It really makes me angry when the game isn't playable out of the box like that.

Also, if you are going to say "Well, you can play the starter by itself to enjoy the game", I will remind you that there are directions for playing the game, and those are "30 cards in your deck, 30 points of characters, 1 Battlefield." If there were options for the game like "Play 15 points of characters with 20 cards, play 20 points of characters with 25 cards, play 30 points of characters with 30 cards, or play 40 points of characters with 40 cards," then I would be fine with this game right now as it is.

Play your games of 15 points of characters with 20 cards (you can switch out cards/dice from the starter set with whatever you got from your packs that is playable).

Unfortunately, I am pretty darn certain that this game has only been play-tested and balanced with the 30 point/30 card play in mind (hence, the RULE saying that is the only deck size option).

Good lord.... why do threads like this exsist... if you aren't happy with the game, walk away. This game will go on. It is going to survive despite your bad feelings. It is a collectible card game. The players who are enjoying it understand what they have bought into.

I have purchased 1 booster box and two starters, plus ten packs. After trading most of the contents in my box, I have built two solid, competitive decks. One of which when 2-1 in our local store tourney on Wednesday night with 20 players. Yes, 20 players on a Wednesday night. I am content. The decks are fun and the group is growing. Already designing deck #3 so I know what to trade for.

So, I had an amazing idea, rather than coming on this thread and posting your sorrows as to what you did not get out of this game, please post what you expected to get from you booster box. Post What you were expecting to pull from a box containing 36 random rares out 67? What were you expecting to do with your 36 random rares?

Not to mention, the gameplay is absolutely brilliant. The character designs are genius. The balance of control and aggro is stunning. This game is here to stay. Love it, enjoy it, play it...

So, I have opened my boosters and gotten my 6 legendary dice, and however many rare dice, and I fortunately could make 4 more or less "Good" decks of cards.

4 decks with $120. Not a lot of options for what I was expecting to be able to customize and change with dozens of variations.

Four decks from a single booster box is really good, actually. I don't know how much more you were expecting, but it simply isn't reasonable at this point to believe that you're owed anything else.

Hopefully this thread has helped to relieve some folks of their blindness, ignorance, naiveté, or whatever else you want to call it. Rest assured, the game is fine, and will continue to be fine, despite a handful of LCG apologists crying about the distribution model. But if you really want to storm off in a huff and proclaim that the game will die without your continued patronage, well... Godspeed to you.

I think you can buy a starter and maybe 10 ish packs and get a fun Star Wars experience, but it won't be a competitive or cut-throat deck. I'm not crazy about playing the "best" deck anyway.

Also, don't discount trading. I've been trading hard online through destiny shapers on facebook, with a lot of success so far. I am willing to trade big for the cards I want (I went three legendaries for my second Vader and was happy to do it). The way I see it, I am not looking to score points off of trading my starter-rares for someone else's great stuff, and know that a lot of people would probably think that my trades were in the other person's favor, and I'm ok with that, but when I pull 7 jetpacks and 5 holocrons from my 3 boxes I can spread some of that out for stuff I didn't pull like promotion.

I think you can buy a starter and maybe 10 ish packs and get a fun Star Wars experience, but it won't be a competitive or cut-throat deck. I'm not crazy about playing the "best" deck anyway.

Also, don't discount trading. I've been trading hard online through destiny shapers on facebook, with a lot of success so far. I am willing to trade big for the cards I want (I went three legendaries for my second Vader and was happy to do it). The way I see it, I am not looking to score points off of trading my starter-rares for someone else's great stuff, and know that a lot of people would probably think that my trades were in the other person's favor, and I'm ok with that, but when I pull 7 jetpacks and 5 holocrons from my 3 boxes I can spread some of that out for stuff I didn't pull like promotion.

I picked up a box and got all of about 2 legendaries that I might use. My total estimated value for what I pulled, based on current market prices, easily equals or exceeds what I paid (Force Choke alone is $35!). So now I'm going to trade Poe, the Falcon, and some other stuff for the things I actually want for my decks... like Jetpacks and holocrons.

See guys? See how this is supposed to work?

complaining that you didn't get what you wanted from random boosters seems foolish when you can go online and buy exactly what you want.

Maybe you guys don't care if I sell my stuff (and get out while this stuff is so valuable) and never come back, but I think Fantasy Flight might want to know what MY problem with the game is.

I love Fantasy Flight games.

I will give it a try, but sustainability of the game depends on people having options.

My suggestion to them is to get out a bunch of new starters as quickly as possible, or to get out a pack with grey heroes meant for sealed games as soon as possible. If you want to charge a premium for deck-building dice, that is your prerogative, but at least do something about the hero dice.

Imagine if they had come out with 4 starters instead of 2, with Anakin and a clone trooper, as well as Darth Maul and a Battle Droid. Or 6 starters adding in a Generic Rebel soldier squad, as well as Stormtrooper squad.

How hard would it have been to make the Tuskan Raider a neutral hero, or the Hired Gun?

I am just saying, they need to look at ease of introduction. It is my belief they need to do something about it, and they need to do it fast. Once people are disillusioned on a game, they are seldom likely to give it another try.

I think you can buy a starter and maybe 10 ish packs and get a fun Star Wars experience, but it won't be a competitive or cut-throat deck. I'm not crazy about playing the "best" deck anyway...

MSRP $45

$45 to "try" out a game.

I think you can buy a starter and maybe 10 ish packs and get a fun Star Wars experience, but it won't be a competitive or cut-throat deck. I'm not crazy about playing the "best" deck anyway...

MSRP $45

$45 to "try" out a game.

Nope $15 to try it. The other 30$ is enhancing

Try and keep some perspective, friend; don't you think FFG knew what they were doing when they got themselves into the CCG market? I have no doubt that they value your feedback, but losing you as a customer was a calculated risk that they were aware of from the beginning, and that's not liable to change now that you've voiced your concerns.

Look, I don't actually want anyone to leave. Chat with us, roll some dice, and enjoy the game for what it is. But if you're still not happy then you need to find a way to reconcile your expectations with reality, because this is exactly how collectible card games are supposed to work.