I swore off CCGs nearly a decade ago due to format complaints, and now here I am buying boosters. Any injury from this point onward is self inflicted.

We have a brave one here. Welcome back, friend; you've been sorely missed.

My wife only supports it because she didn't know me in the M:TG days.

We'll leave aside for the moment what people should expect or know, because it's honestly irrelevant.

What we're talking about here is the new player experience. Simply put, does someone who makes a small initial purchase of Destiny feel compelled to keep playing it? If someone drops $65, do they walk away from the game feeling like it's a good value, or frustrated that half the stuff they pulled is completely useless?

All the "They're playing the wrong game" arguments are missing the point. The point of the OP, and that several of us are trying to make, is that we want people playing Destiny . Arguing that frustrated players should just leave the game, or aren't working hard enough to deserve to play, are stupid. They do nothing but constrain the player base.

I know a large number of players who won't touch the game because it's collectible. I know more who might have, but looked at the collectability (Legendaries especially) and decided not to bother. Pretty much everyone I do know who's playing is holding their nose about the distribution model in order to do so. That's not good, because it means that we get fewer players overall, and those players are more fragile - if a release gets the balance out of whack I'll abandon the game far faster than I would with an LCG.

But even then, I'm not really saying it has to go full LCG - I don't think that would be realistic, though whether that's because of production costs or our new Asmodee overlords I'm not sure. But there are a number of things they could easily do that would leave the rest of the system in place while smoothing the new player experience. Several were mentioned previously - get rid of the overlap between starters and boosters. Make the starters full size, rather than reduced. I think a 2 player starter would have been a good thing. Make at least some characters available in fixed packs, with both dice for them so that people have an easier time building to the deck/theme they want.

I'm honestly not sure why anyone would think this is a bad idea, other than just being a **** to new players. Smoothing the experience so it's as easy as possible to get into the game is a win for everyone.

All the "They're playing the wrong game" arguments are missing the point. The point of the OP, and that several of us are trying to make, is that we want people playing Destiny . Arguing that frustrated players should just leave the game, or aren't working hard enough to deserve to play, are stupid. They do nothing but constrain the player base.

I don't think we (I) are (am).

The CCG model requires and expects certain things.

The *expectation* is that you have other local players, not just to play with, but to trade your cards with. This requires a pool of players to interact with. Admittedly it's hard to get one started at the moment mostly due to lack of product rather than product design, however, IF YOU LACK THIS, you SHOULD ABSOLUTELY CONSIDER playing another game. Community based collectible gaming with trading as a major component and random boosters are NOT friendly to solo gamers or inactive/passive gaming communities.

This isn't saying "off to LCG land you filthy card peasant", this is saying "Hey, here's a format that fits your needs/wants better".

I in no way disagree that getting players into the game is ideal for everyone, but I *do* disagree that the starters need to be modified. As it is, they are ideally suited to grow into a more personalized deck with a minimum addition of cards.

As for why packs of specific cards is a bad idea... it skews the trading market. Locally we have a very active Destiny community considering the limited supply. Force Throw is a fantastic card, but nobody trades them. Nobody trades them because you only buy as many as you need, and you can always get the one more you need. Why would I trade a card I basically spent $15 on? I'm going to point you at the Rey starter and say "Hey, at least you get another Lightsaber out of it!"

Including specific cards, particularly powerful ones, in specific packs results in a weird skewing of the trading value which, for myself and many others, is one of the primary attractions to the game format in the first place. It also leaves you in the position of having way more commons than you know what to do with.

I'd like to see more decks like the current starters in the future. A couple of specific characters, one or two good but not game breaking cards, some solid common/uncommon necessities, and room to grow. The strongest cards should all have an element of randomization and risk associated with acquiring them.

You know, unless you skip the format and just buy from the secondary market, but I don't even look at that, myself.

We'll leave aside for the moment what people should expect or know, because it's honestly irrelevant.

What we're talking about here is the new player experience. Simply put, does someone who makes a small initial purchase of Destiny feel compelled to keep playing it? If someone drops $65, do they walk away from the game feeling like it's a good value, or frustrated that half the stuff they pulled is completely useless?

All the "They're playing the wrong game" arguments are missing the point. The point of the OP, and that several of us are trying to make, is that we want people playing Destiny . Arguing that frustrated players should just leave the game, or aren't working hard enough to deserve to play, are stupid. They do nothing but constrain the player base.

I know a large number of players who won't touch the game because it's collectible. I know more who might have, but looked at the collectability (Legendaries especially) and decided not to bother. Pretty much everyone I do know who's playing is holding their nose about the distribution model in order to do so. That's not good, because it means that we get fewer players overall, and those players are more fragile - if a release gets the balance out of whack I'll abandon the game far faster than I would with an LCG.

But even then, I'm not really saying it has to go full LCG - I don't think that would be realistic, though whether that's because of production costs or our new Asmodee overlords I'm not sure. But there are a number of things they could easily do that would leave the rest of the system in place while smoothing the new player experience. Several were mentioned previously - get rid of the overlap between starters and boosters. Make the starters full size, rather than reduced. I think a 2 player starter would have been a good thing. Make at least some characters available in fixed packs, with both dice for them so that people have an easier time building to the deck/theme they want.

I'm honestly not sure why anyone would think this is a bad idea, other than just being a **** to new players. Smoothing the experience so it's as easy as possible to get into the game is a win for everyone.

I have to admit, I made a huge purchase today (I heard about the game months ago, but just today remembered to ask LGS if it was out). I purchased 2 starters, and a whole CASE of boosters. It was a lot of money. For other collectible games, you would expect to make dozens or even a hundred unique teams for playing the game (Star Wars Miniatures would be a case, with like 60 miniatures, Heroclix would be 50 miniatures, Dice Masters would be 180 dice with matching cards). I am still at work, and have just finished reading all of the directions and the Card list, and I have to admit, I am REALLY disappointed that with only ~20 playable characters, the likelihood that I will have 2 Luke Skywalker dice in my packs is close to zero. Now, I understand what the rarity is, but truthfully, there is no reason they couldn't have had multiple versions of the big 12 characters (Luke, Darth, Han, Leia, Rey, Yoda, Kylo, Finn, Poe, Chewie, Padme, Palpatine).

If they made the packs playable (at least 1 character per pack), with three dice and a guaranteed character in the pack (maybe even a guaranteed legendary, making the rarity 1-3 instead of 1-6) and making the packs $9 or whatever, people would not be as unhappy with the unplayable $20 that they just spent to get into a game.

Example: a sealed could be 2 boosters - Play the characters (you will have at least 2) all your cards (you will have at most 28), and you would have a few extra dice to use with your characters.

If you add on top of that card restrictions (cannot use villain cards with heroes and vice versa, cannot use blue cards with yellow, yellow cards with blue, et cetera) you have a problematic cost point to get into the game as well as a very limited play possibility even if you own every single resource in the game.

I think that releases of starters with desired characters would alleviate this by a heck of a lot.

We'll leave aside for the moment what people should expect or know, because it's honestly irrelevant.

What we're talking about here is the new player experience. Simply put, does someone who makes a small initial purchase of Destiny feel compelled to keep playing it? If someone drops $65, do they walk away from the game feeling like it's a good value, or frustrated that half the stuff they pulled is completely useless?

All the "They're playing the wrong game" arguments are missing the point. The point of the OP, and that several of us are trying to make, is that we want people playing Destiny . Arguing that frustrated players should just leave the game, or aren't working hard enough to deserve to play, are stupid. They do nothing but constrain the player base.

I know a large number of players who won't touch the game because it's collectible. I know more who might have, but looked at the collectability (Legendaries especially) and decided not to bother. Pretty much everyone I do know who's playing is holding their nose about the distribution model in order to do so. That's not good, because it means that we get fewer players overall, and those players are more fragile - if a release gets the balance out of whack I'll abandon the game far faster than I would with an LCG.

But even then, I'm not really saying it has to go full LCG - I don't think that would be realistic, though whether that's because of production costs or our new Asmodee overlords I'm not sure. But there are a number of things they could easily do that would leave the rest of the system in place while smoothing the new player experience. Several were mentioned previously - get rid of the overlap between starters and boosters. Make the starters full size, rather than reduced. I think a 2 player starter would have been a good thing. Make at least some characters available in fixed packs, with both dice for them so that people have an easier time building to the deck/theme they want.

I'm honestly not sure why anyone would think this is a bad idea, other than just being a **** to new players. Smoothing the experience so it's as easy as possible to get into the game is a win for everyone.

You're doing a poor job of managing new player expectations if you're allowing them to come here and see all this "gimme gimme gimme" attitude. Is that what you want to do, foster more entitlement in this world? Because people who don't know any better, people who don't care about being the most competitive , are probably a lot better off than you think they are. The reason why games like Magic succeed is because casual players actually like buying random packs, so why would you deprive new Destiny players of that joy by lifting the veil from their eyes and telling them that they need more rares and legendaries to be successful, when all they really need to do is have fun and roll some dice?

The *expectation* is that you have other local players, not just to play with, but to trade your cards with. This requires a pool of players to interact with. Admittedly it's hard to get one started at the moment mostly due to lack of product rather than product design, however, IF YOU LACK THIS, you SHOULD ABSOLUTELY CONSIDER playing another game. Community based collectible gaming with trading as a major component and random boosters are NOT friendly to solo gamers or inactive/passive gaming communities.

And this is, again, not the point anyone is making. The point we're trying to make is that requiring this just to make your first legal deck is a serious barrier to entry for players, and will undoubtedly discourage players. A majority of players making their first purchase aren't going to coincidentally have people standing around to trade with. Someone who makes their first purchase, goes home to read the rules, opens their packs and realizes they can't even build a deck with what their $60 got them... yeah, you probably just lost that player.

Including specific cards, particularly powerful ones, in specific packs results in a weird skewing of the trading value which, for myself and many others, is one of the primary attractions to the game format in the first place. It also leaves you in the position of having way more commons than you know what to do with.

There is no "skewed" trading value for fixed cards - there basically isn't one. Or at the very least, it's fixed and constrained. Not every card in the set needs one. I actually think that's a good thing, ESPECIALLY if they're some decently powerful cards. I look at the prices for Vader and think it's disgusting. A system that toned that down by providing comparable cards in a reliable and cheap manner would be welcome.

At least for me, the problem isn't just that it's a collectible game. It's that the collectability aspect is SERIOUSLY brutal. Character requirements, a 6-way split for card usability, legendaries, multiple categories of rare cards, low counts in packs... Honestly, it's like they went out of their way to make putting a collection together as hard as possible. Most of this isn't required for the collectible model, which is where I think you're going wrong - you're defending the collectible model generally, while we're raising concerns with THIS model. They could lighten it up a few steps without going to a full LCG.

Not that they will, because the initial sales are basically printing money. But it's nice to imagine a world where FFG weren't quite such jerks about the whole thing.

I'd like to respond to some of the most common responses when people talk about their dislike for the CCG format.

1) If you don't like it, don't play it.

That's a perfectly acceptable decision, and I imagine that there are a lot of gamers out there who are interested in Destiny but who are choosing to stay away because of the CCG format. Nothing wrong with that at all. Myself, I am choosing to play Destiny despite the format. It doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing argument. There's nothing at all wrong with saying, as I have, that Destiny is a fantastic game although I hate the CCG format and fully believe that fixed content games are objectively better.

2) It's not like FFG didn't tell you that it was going to be a CCG up front, so don't act all surprised about it.

FFG was absolutely transparent about the format of the game, I don't think that anyone who was familiar with the game going in is making the argument that it came as a surprise. I'm certainly not - I'm all too familiar with the format, having played several CCGs in the past including Magic and the Decipher Star Wars game, as well as sinking so much money into various Clix games that I'm embarrassed to think about it.

3) There's a secondary market so it's actually good for the player.

Sure, the ability to buy cards you want from the secondary markets IS a good thing. However, you're going to pay high prices for the best/most sought after cards because of the rarity schemes inherent to the CCG format. Want two copies of Darth Vader? You'd better either get extremely lucky with blind buys, or pull something equally rare/sought after and then find someone with copies of Vader who wants to trade for it, or be willing to spend $60-$80 (at current rates) for two cards and two dice. I'd still argue that fixed content is objectively better - who wouldn't pay $10 for a Vader card with two dice and maybe another couple of thematic cards?

4) If you like the LCG model so much then play the Star Wars LCG instead.

Okay, is it exactly the same game as Destiny? Of course not, and it's Destiny we're talking about here. If I wanted to play the LCG I'd certainly do that.

5) Oh, you want to build a competitive deck? Well then you'd better stop whining and get ready to shell out the big bucks to do it.

This is the nature of CCGs, I fully understand it. Again, it doesn't mean that I need to like it. And when I say that I'd like to build a competitive deck I'm not talking about wanting to go play in regional and national level tournaments. I'm talking about being able to put together 30 points of heroes and a solid 30 card deck. At $65 spent so far I can't do that yet. I'm still stuck with elite Rey and standard Finn from the starter, and in order to fill out my deck to 30 cards I have to throw in basically every legal card I have regardless of how well (or even if) it works with those characters. It seems to me that in order to have enough content to really get nice deck-building options Destiny is, at minimum, a $100 proposition. Which is fine if you're willing to pay that much for mostly random content, and take the extra step of scooping up cards you want but didn't get on the secondary market. Again, it's the nature of CCGs.

Now, after all of that I will say that Destiny, for a CCG, certainly has a much higher value for cost ratio than a whole lot of other collectible games out there. Every card I've seen has been interesting, and most of them seem highly playable in a wide variety of decks. I am not the target customer for the CCG model, though. I will spend that $100 or so, and buy some cards and make some trades until I have a decent selection from which to build fun decks, and then I'll be done. FFG would have, in the long run, gotten a lot more money out of me had Destiny been a fixed-content game. And to that end, I will wholeheartedly support any future fixed-content expansions that may be released for the game.

We'll leave aside for the moment what people should expect or know, because it's honestly irrelevant.

What we're talking about here is the new player experience. Simply put, does someone who makes a small initial purchase of Destiny feel compelled to keep playing it? If someone drops $65, do they walk away from the game feeling like it's a good value, or frustrated that half the stuff they pulled is completely useless?

All the "They're playing the wrong game" arguments are missing the point. The point of the OP, and that several of us are trying to make, is that we want people playing Destiny . Arguing that frustrated players should just leave the game, or aren't working hard enough to deserve to play, are stupid. They do nothing but constrain the player base.

I know a large number of players who won't touch the game because it's collectible. I know more who might have, but looked at the collectability (Legendaries especially) and decided not to bother. Pretty much everyone I do know who's playing is holding their nose about the distribution model in order to do so. That's not good, because it means that we get fewer players overall, and those players are more fragile - if a release gets the balance out of whack I'll abandon the game far faster than I would with an LCG.

But even then, I'm not really saying it has to go full LCG - I don't think that would be realistic, though whether that's because of production costs or our new Asmodee overlords I'm not sure. But there are a number of things they could easily do that would leave the rest of the system in place while smoothing the new player experience. Several were mentioned previously - get rid of the overlap between starters and boosters. Make the starters full size, rather than reduced. I think a 2 player starter would have been a good thing. Make at least some characters available in fixed packs, with both dice for them so that people have an easier time building to the deck/theme they want.

I'm honestly not sure why anyone would think this is a bad idea, other than just being a **** to new players. Smoothing the experience so it's as easy as possible to get into the game is a win for everyone.

So, you and everybody you know doesn't like the distribution model of this game. Fair enough, that is a perfectly legitimate point of view, but don't assume that means everyone feels the same way or even a majority of us do. Magic has been thriving on this model. Why can't Destiny?

What if in a couple of years at the 2018 championships Destiny is FFG's second best selling product behind x-wing and has more people participating in its tournament than the LCG's do? Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Destiny becomes more successful with a larger player base for FFG than any of its LCG's. Then again maybe it flops. In a year or so, regardless of what any of us think of the model we'll all know if FFG made the right decision.

The repeat of rares in the starters, which you pushed towards buying multiple of, isn't a new player problem. It's just a player problem.

New players will notice the least. They may have only bought a single starter. An extra BB8 or Staff could be very useful to them at that point. It isn't until they move past being a new player and actually dive in that they let out a sigh everytime they open what is essentially unneeded untradeable rares. It's certain not going to encourage impulse buy from players that have a comfortable collection. I see starter rares as an issue but not a new player one.

Additionally while it is entirely possible to buy a starter and a few packs and not have a legal deck, nobody is dropping $60 and not having a legal deck to play.

I'm not talking about LCG format Vs CCG format. this game would be impossible to make without the kind of money people spend on collectables.

I'm providing very specific feedback on how this particular game is handling it and specific pain points I'm encountering. like buying boosters and getting no characters for the faction that you want to play.

FFG has a long record of doing the thing that is best for the game because ultimately that is best for business.

Right now only very specific character combo's get into the right area of 28-30 character points. small point adjustments are locked behind finding dupe's of specific characters.

Additionally while it is entirely possible to buy a starter and a few packs and not have a legal deck, nobody is dropping $60 and not having a legal deck to play.

There's a difference between "legal" deck and "playable" deck. Is a 20-point Kylo/Tropper legal? Yes. Is it playable at full level? I'd argue that it's not. And it is very possible, after 10-12 packs, to still be stuck in that position.

Magic has been thriving on this model. Why can't Destiny?

The Destiny model is not the Magic model. Magic gives you 1 rare, 3 uncommon, 10 commons in a pack. Destiny gives you one dice rare, one non-dice rare (a.k.a. "uncommon"), and 3 uncommons (a.k.a. "commons"). Magic doesn't appear to have a legendary rarity that I can find, the only chase cards there seem to be foils, but I could be wrong there. Magic also makes basic lands - the fundamental piece to any deck - ubiquitously available, unlike characters, which are equally fundamental but sitting at not only rares or legendaries put requiring you to get a pair of them.

I think if you look at the concerns most people have you'll find that while they dislike the collectible model, it's these differences that really drive the frustration. Destiny isn't just a collectible game - it's a collectible game that goes out of its way to be as painful as possible for the player.

The thing that I see many people missing about the distribution model is this:

You can't make a legal Destiny deck without rares, and you can't make a functional Destiny deck without (relatively) quite many rares.

This is why it's not the same random distribution problem as with all the other CCGs. In most, if not all other CCGs, you can build a legal and functional deck without any rare cards. Sure, it'll probably be extremely janky, but you at least can play and enjoy the game with it. Heck, many games even have extremely fun tournament formats centred around doing that.

No such thing in Destiny. You can't build an all-common deck. You can't even build a common + uncommon deck. You need at least some rares for the dice. And given what we've seen so far, to play on any kind of reasonable level, you need at least something like a dozen rares minimum to play a real game. Not even a competitive game. You need that just to enjoy the game the way it was designed to be enjoyed.

This compounds the random distribution issue beyond anything that is present in other CCGs, you can't just shrug and say "That's collectible for ya" because it's a different type of issue than other collectible games. I can certainly see it being a problem going forward - it will simply scare people off in the long run.

Then there's the fact that the uncommons, while not as crucial to deck construction, are almost as rare as actual rares...

Additionally while it is entirely possible to buy a starter and a few packs and not have a legal deck, nobody is dropping $60 and not having a legal deck to play.

There's a difference between "legal" deck and "playable" deck. Is a 20-point Kylo/Tropper legal? Yes. Is it playable at full level? I'd argue that it's not. And it is very possible, after 10-12 packs, to still be stuck in that position.

Magic has been thriving on this model. Why can't Destiny?

The Destiny model is not the Magic model. Magic gives you 1 rare, 3 uncommon, 10 commons in a pack. Destiny gives you one dice rare, one non-dice rare (a.k.a. "uncommon"), and 3 uncommons (a.k.a. "commons"). Magic doesn't appear to have a legendary rarity that I can find, the only chase cards there seem to be foils, but I could be wrong there.

For the sake of completeness, Magic has had 'Mythic Rares' since 2008. They replace the usual Rare card in a booster, just like in Destiny. The odds of hitting one are roughly 1 in 8.

TBH, I think every collectible game has a 'More Rare than Rare' rarity tier by now. Mythic in Magic, Epic in WoW, Super Rare in Dice Masters, Legendary in Destiny... By now I guess that's a given in a CCG that you have four rarity tiers instead of the three of yesteryear.

Just wanted to point out -- there seems to be a weird double standard for our hypothetical players. They're casual enough that they don't want to trade, investigate the singles market, or invest more than ~$60 in the game; but they're also serious enough that they're going to strictly adhere to the "standard" format and rules of deck construction (30 points, 30 cards, 10-20 dice, color requirements, hero/villain distinction, etc). But casual players have no reason to care about the "standard" format -- they'll make due with what they have. Maybe that means Rey and Finn hire Jango Fett for a mission, or Admiral Ackbar has turned to the Dark Side and now helps Kylo. They don't care that Flamethrower is a Yellow villain card, and will throw it into whatever deck they want to. They're not going to lock themselves into 30 point, 30 card decks. When my friend and I played after the prerelease event, we each only got one extra character... he was stuck at either 26 or 32 points. He just played at 32 points, while I played my 30 point deck and didn't really care. Casual players aren't bound to these arbitrary rules, since they're eschewing competitive tournament play. Once they start frequenting an LGS or a group that does adhere to the Standard format, they'll also find themselves in a community that's able to trade with them or even give them cards (because the hardcore players who bought 4 boxes will simply have extra) to help them get started. I know that's actually been the case in one of the Texas metas.

I'm as apprehensive about barriers to entry as the next guy -- I want people, myself included, to be able to make a meaningful-yet-modest investment in the game and enjoy it. I would love to see FFG take a different approach to the starters next year -- make them full decks, guarantee one character of each color per faction, and/or handle the Starter/rarity issue better (make all rare cards starter only, to avoid booster pack draws; follow the LCG model and give players the full playset in one box, etc.). I think a better approach to starters is the way to do it. But I think the booster packs are fine as is, and I don't think this hypothetical casual player is going to care enough about the Standard rules to not slot his shiny new Jetpack into his Red/Blue villain starter deck. Bad booster draws are not a barrier to entry, especially because casual players won't often *know* what constitutes a bad booster draw! Bad booster draws only bother people who know enough about the game, and what constitutes a competitive deck. And if someone realizes the investment for a competitive deck and is turned off by it, that's fine -- they don't cash into the competitive scene. But nothing prevents you from picking up the two starter sets and a pack or two every time you go to the LGS (or Target!) and just playing with your family on the kitchen table. Some folks will only invest $50 in the game, and they will still enjoy it and still play it. The people who drop $50, get bad booster pulls, throw their hands up in the air and quit the game are people who want to play competitively and are unwilling to commit to it. And that's totally fine! But that's not a reflection on whether the game is fun or not, or whether they could still play the game with the cards they opened by altering the format of the game. Also consider: for everyone who opens six booster packs to get no characters, you get the person who opens six booster packs and pulls Han Solo and General Grievous, two of their favorite characters. Both players may have been on the fence -- the first player might now quit, but the second one may now be all-in. The randomness can cut both ways, when it comes to player retention.

Additionally while it is entirely possible to buy a starter and a few packs and not have a legal deck, nobody is dropping $60 and not having a legal deck to play.

There's a difference between "legal" deck and "playable" deck. Is a 20-point Kylo/Tropper legal? Yes. Is it playable at full level? I'd argue that it's not. And it is very possible, after 10-12 packs, to still be stuck in that position.

Magic has been thriving on this model. Why can't Destiny?

The Destiny model is not the Magic model. Magic gives you 1 rare, 3 uncommon, 10 commons in a pack. Destiny gives you one dice rare, one non-dice rare (a.k.a. "uncommon"), and 3 uncommons (a.k.a. "commons"). Magic doesn't appear to have a legendary rarity that I can find, the only chase cards there seem to be foils, but I could be wrong there. Magic also makes basic lands - the fundamental piece to any deck - ubiquitously available, unlike characters, which are equally fundamental but sitting at not only rares or legendaries put requiring you to get a pair of them.

I think if you look at the concerns most people have you'll find that while they dislike the collectible model, it's these differences that really drive the frustration. Destiny isn't just a collectible game - it's a collectible game that goes out of its way to be as painful as possible for the player.

Magic has mythic rares, which replace a regular rare approximately one in every 8 packs.

It's not a hypothetical person. It's actual folks. Buying product and feeling bad about it.

Team building is a point buy system but only one in three packs will have an option for, it's not a great situation.

I don't feed orks or trolls.

Additionally while it is entirely possible to buy a starter and a few packs and not have a legal deck, nobody is dropping $60 and not having a legal deck to play.

There's a difference between "legal" deck and "playable" deck. Is a 20-point Kylo/Tropper legal? Yes. Is it playable at full level? I'd argue that it's not. And it is very possible, after 10-12 packs, to still be stuck in that position.

Magic has been thriving on this model. Why can't Destiny?

The Destiny model is not the Magic model. Magic gives you 1 rare, 3 uncommon, 10 commons in a pack. Destiny gives you one dice rare, one non-dice rare (a.k.a. "uncommon"), and 3 uncommons (a.k.a. "commons"). Magic doesn't appear to have a legendary rarity that I can find, the only chase cards there seem to be foils, but I could be wrong there.

For the sake of completeness, Magic has had 'Mythic Rares' since 2008. They replace the usual Rare card in a booster, just like in Destiny. The odds of hitting one are roughly 1 in 8.

TBH, I think every collectible game has a 'More Rare than Rare' rarity tier by now. Mythic in Magic, Epic in WoW, Super Rare in Dice Masters, Legendary in Destiny... By now I guess that's a given in a CCG that you have four rarity tiers instead of the three of yesteryear.

That's fair - I couldn't find reference to one, so wasn't sure if they'd added it or not, but honestly wasn't that dedicated to finding out.

It's not a hypothetical person. It's actual folks. Buying product and feeling bad about it.

Team building is a point buy system but only one in three packs will have an option for, it's not a great situation.

I don't feed orks or trolls.

Then it is possible that those folks aren't the target audience. I was unable to attend a prerelease tournament because of work. Happily, I was able to get 2 kylo starters the next day. I played the next couple of weeks with no boosters and very limited deck building options. I had a great time with the game. I had already preordered 3 booster boxes and a Rey starter. The games I played convinced me I would be happy with my order.

Folks need to understand what the game is and figure out if it's a good fit for them. How much they are willing to spend on it and if that will get them enough to satisfy them. This game isn't going to be a good fit for everyone and as I said in my previous post only time will tell if FFG made the right marketing decision for this game. I'm betting they have a huge hit on their hands.

I'm betting they don't. This game's release methodology reminds me too much of Dreamblade and, to a lesser extent, Monsterpocalypse. Dreamblade was a huge hit and had local tourneys offering tens of thousands of dollars in prizes. And the one night it was just gone. That's because both games "target audience" was the rich collector and not the gamer. A casual gamer isn't going to ignore the rules just so he can use what he has; he's going to drop the game like dog poo and get something else. Games don't succeed by treating the casual gamer like crap. When collecting becomes more important than playing, your on the road of failure - that's what Dreamblade did. Sure, Magic makes enough money just from its professional circuit to cover everything. But you can't duplicate that kind of thing anymore; the gaming world is just too different.

I bought both starters and two complete booster boxes. Including Kylo Ren, I have three named Villain characters none of whom are yellow. If I spent over $200 on Magic or Dicemasters I'd be doing pretty well. For Destiny? Barely passable.The game revolves around characters; there needs to be an easier way to get them. In Magic, if basic lands were Mythic Rares then the game would fail and deservedly so.

CCG's are not even remotely based on trading. That's because 95% of a collectible game's content (at least) has no trade value. Neither FFG, nor any company, makes moneys off of sales of its product on any secondary market. Making the use of a secondary market a requirement for play is asinine. There aren't enough rich collector gamers to make that strategy succeed just like it hasn't worked for any game in the last decade that's attempted it. It's one thing to open a Magic booster, get a Red rare and sigh as I'm not playing a deck with red in it. It's another to open a Destiny booster and get a legendary that I can't even play with, no matter what my playstyle is, and even after spending another $100, still can't use it. This is most definitely not how CCG's work (not the ones that have succeeded anyway).

No game has ever succeed more than briefly by treating the casual gamer like crap. There is nothing in Destiny that's going to entice the casual gamer to stick around.

I'm betting they don't. This game's release methodology reminds me too much of Dreamblade and, to a lesser extent, Monsterpocalypse. Dreamblade was a huge hit and had local tourneys offering tens of thousands of dollars in prizes. And the one night it was just gone. That's because both games "target audience" was the rich collector and not the gamer. A casual gamer isn't going to ignore the rules just so he can use what he has; he's going to drop the game like dog poo and get something else. Games don't succeed by treating the casual gamer like crap. When collecting becomes more important than playing, your on the road of failure - that's what Dreamblade did. Sure, Magic makes enough money just from its professional circuit to cover everything. But you can't duplicate that kind of thing anymore; the gaming world is just too different.

I bought both starters and two complete booster boxes. Including Kylo Ren, I have three named Villain characters none of whom are yellow. If I spent over $200 on Magic or Dicemasters I'd be doing pretty well. For Destiny? Barely passable.The game revolves around characters; there needs to be an easier way to get them. In Magic, if basic lands were Mythic Rares then the game would fail and deservedly so.

CCG's are not even remotely based on trading. That's because 95% of a collectible game's content (at least) has no trade value. Neither FFG, nor any company, makes moneys off of sales of its product on any secondary market. Making the use of a secondary market a requirement for play is asinine. There aren't enough rich collector gamers to make that strategy succeed just like it hasn't worked for any game in the last decade that's attempted it. It's one thing to open a Magic booster, get a Red rare and sigh as I'm not playing a deck with red in it. It's another to open a Destiny booster and get a legendary that I can't even play with, no matter what my playstyle is, and even after spending another $100, still can't use it. This is most definitely not how CCG's work (not the ones that have succeeded anyway).

No game has ever succeed more than briefly by treating the casual gamer like crap. There is nothing in Destiny that's going to entice the casual gamer to stick around.

lolwut

Magic doesn't succeed because of the pro tour, you silly goose. It succeeds because people buy boosters. Some things really are that simple, but hey, you know what? I'm actually okay with people who don't know the first thing about Magic telling me how things are, even if they're apt to complain. That means I get to laugh and educate, so it's a double win. Now please, someone tell me more about how the most suceessful business model on the market is doing it wrong.

bugger folks!

What is wrong here? I bought a booster box got 12 characters no sweat that I can make a deck with that. Legal and competitive. I also bought both starters. I am set for fun and competition.

But here it is: IF I WANT A DIE I WILL TRADE ONE I DO NOT NEED! Do not be the collector here be the player. This comming saturday I will trade an AT ST for force training and a leia for a bal tik even leia for a hold out blaster will go. I want the hold out blaster in my deck and I have an idea for bala tik. I'll go for it.

All of the above is collector issues which are resolved with secondary market and trading.

and as for dropping $100 and being not able to play:

In my play group I am mr suitcase. I have both starters and a box my friends have from 6 to 10 boosters and one or both starters.

one of my friends which is a card wizard beats me 70-80% of the times with 2 starters and 6 boosters (a extra characters some upgrades from boosters or the other starter) he has made 2 decks that can beat me a fair deal (OK he asked if he could use my storm trooper or finn but for $15 he has got that down) of the time.

Tell me I'm a dope that can't make decks -> probably. but I have fun and I do not cling to collect ability thank you.

as Bruce Lee once said: It's not daily increase but daily decrease that makes us better. Hack away the unessential and you will grow.

The intro decks serve that exact purpose: they get you playing the game. Everything else boils down to "I'm not getting the toys I want," which players elevate in their minds to become a necessity. The distribution model in Destiny is no better or worse than any other game, collectible or otherwise. You just have to decide how much money is worth spending on the things that are important to you. Be thankful, at least, that there's a secondary market; I'd flip my lid if I relied on booster purchases to assemble my standard decks in Magic.

Yeah... No.

Intro decks are there to get you into the game. (You are correct.) They should not be madatory so I can play with 1/6th of the availabe cards! It's less "the toys I want" and more "the stuff I actually need."

From both starters, 1 box and 4 loose packs, you know wich blue character I have to use, to be able to play my blue hero cards? Rey. From the starter. That's it. I pulled 2 nightsisters from my box so for the villains I have a litle bit of options. (Night sis or Emo Ren.)

Now I'm miffed that I can't play a mill discard deck (that me not getting the toys I want) But that's ok, I'll play a gen Grievous melee deck or storm trooper swarm, fine. (sigh.) But It's a bit galling to note that if I hadn't picked up the Rey starter I would not be able to play any blue stuff from the hero faction (did get some blue dice, but that's all upgrades, no chars.)

That needs to be fixed in the expansion.

OK, as a long time Magic player I'm going to point out something here newer people into the CCG world may have missed.

We all know about the failings of the CCG model when you just can't seem to open what you want. I have personal experience of the general futility of trying to trade from Magic. Most of what you get has zero trade value so you can probably complete your set of unused or very common cards but you can't trade them all into a Vader, just not going to happen.

I've found for Magic that the best way is to not get sucked into the 'opening boosters' addiction at all and only buy what I want from the secondary market. Card prices may be high but you are getting what you want not just a chance at what you want.

Now here is the real 'trick' to making that stance work. When you play with your buddies on the kitchen table and are testing your deck ideas and builds just take that common that is worth nothing that you have 6 copies of and write VADER on it in big letters. Proxy what you want to test and only go to the secondary market to buy cards you know you need. The dice are six sided so just use some old dice you have lying around.

You only need the proper stuff when playing at a store or a sanctioned event and even then you may be able to borrow from people not attending rather than buying from the dealers.

CCG's are a huge money sink but if you use just a little common sense you can reduce the cost.

You guys do realize that for less than the price of two starters you can have almost any combination of characters that you want, right? I get that you haven't figured out how to work the CCG system, and that's fine. Just don't ignore your peers when they try to assist in your edification. If you want particular characters you have to go out and buy them. Boosters are for casual players and limited formats, that's it. Whenever a new Magic set comes out I typically buy a box for spits and giggles, to flesh out my commons/uncommons, and because let's face it, who doesn't like playing the lottery? But if what I really want to do is build a specific deck for standard with specific cards, I go out and buy them individually. I have no illusion that buying $100+ worth of boosters is going to get me anywhere close to where I want to be competitively. The sooner you guys figure that out for yourselves, the better off we'll all be.

And again, the starters come with everything you need to play the game. If you're bored with those after less than a week from the game's release, well, that sounds like a personal problem.

Really? Most Legendary Characters I'm seeing are priced either the same as a Starter Set or higher.