Someone said I need to roll the additional dice separately due to probability? is this right or just BS

28 minutes ago, pitchfork06 said:

Someone said I need to roll the additional dice separately due to probability? is this right or just BS

No, you need to do it because the rules tell you to.

1 hour ago, pitchfork06 said:

Someone said I need to roll the additional dice separately due to probability? is this right or just BS

No, it's because it's a separate roll in the rules

• it's good practice; saying "agility 2 [roll] plus lightweight frame [roll]" makes it clear what you're doing.
• There will be niche cases where it matters to the rules; I believe there's an interaction, for example between Palpatine and Lightweight Frame in the FAQ:

"After a ship rolls defense dice and before it resolves the effect of Lightweight Frame to roll an additional defense die, Palpatine can be used on the separate, additional defense die. Note that if Palpatine is used for the initial roll, he cannot affect the separate, additional defense die"

If a putative future upgrade said "whenever you roll defence dice", Lightweight Frame would let you trigger it twice. There's no way to put Lightweight Frame on Sunny Bounder, for example, but that's a good example if the Empire ever got a similar pilot.

• It is specifically an extra defence die, not agility, so if (for example) your Striker gets tractored to heck and has agility 0, nothing they can do can take away the lightweight frame die.

• A more interesting interaction in the latest wave is Test Pilot Blackout:

"When attacking, if the attack is obstructed, the defender rolls 2 fewer defense dice (to a minimum of 0). "

Given, for the sake of argument, Outmanoeuvre:

"When attacking a ship inside your firing arc, if you are not inside that ship's firing arc, reduce its agility value by 1 (to a minimum of 0)."

And a tractor token from a friendly tractor beam, he could reduce the TIE striker's agility to zero and still have his "-2 defence dice" in his pocket.

One of those is inevitably going to eliminate the bonus defence die from an obstructed attack, which results in the defender rolling a total of zero green dice.

At this point, lightweight frame should trigger - does the fact that it's a 'separate roll' protect this bonus die from Blackout's pilot ability?

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

A more interesting interaction in the latest wave is Test Pilot Blackout:

"When attacking, if the attack is obstructed, the defender rolls 2 fewer defense dice (to a minimum of 0). "

Given, for the sake of argument, Outmanoeuvre:

"When attacking a ship inside your firing arc, if you are not inside that ship's firing arc, reduce its agility value by 1 (to a minimum of 0)."

And a tractor token from a friendly tractor beam, he could reduce the TIE striker's agility to zero and still have his "-2 defence dice" in his pocket.

One of those is inevitably going to eliminate the bonus defence die from an obstructed attack, which results in the defender rolling a total of zero green dice.

At this point, lightweight frame should trigger - does the fact that it's a 'separate roll' protect this bonus die from Blackout's pilot ability?

I would argue that you add the Lightweight Frame die. My sense is that TPBO refers to the initial dice roll, and mandates that it must have two fewer dice in it. As such, I think TPBO would have already triggered before you even check for LWF's additional die. Basically, I don't think there's a way to "save" TPBO's ability in case your opponent rolls more dice in the future. I think that along with agility reduction, TPBO's ability is applied to the big stack of dice pool additions and subtractions before the roll--whether or not it keeps bumping at the zero dice floor.

4 hours ago, pitchfork06 said:

Someone said I need to roll the additional dice separately due to probability? is this right or just BS

LOL What !?!? It change absolutly nothing with the probability !??!??!

41 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I would argue that you add the Lightweight Frame die. My sense is that TPBO refers to the initial dice roll, and mandates that it must have two fewer dice in it. As such, I think TPBO would have already triggered before you even check for LWF's additional die. Basically, I don't think there's a way to "save" TPBO's ability in case your opponent rolls more dice in the future. I think that along with agility reduction, TPBO's ability is applied to the big stack of dice pool additions and subtractions before the roll--whether or not it keeps bumping at the zero dice floor.

Personally, I would agree. Again; comparing with the ruling on Palpatine, Lightweight Frame is considered "a separate roll", so Test Pilot Blackout's ability has 'expired' by the time you get to it.

There might be a different argument that if it's a separate roll it might trigger again (and hence remove up to 2 dice from that roll as well), though.

Let's say Test Pilot "Blackout" is attacking Backdraft, with Lightweight Frame, at Range 2 through an asteroid. No other shenanigans (cards or abilities) are active or can effect this situation.

1. Test Pilot "Blackout" rolls 3 attack dice.
2. Test Pilot "Blackout" rolls three blank results.
3. Backdraft collects his 2 defense dice (agility value of 2) and an additional die for the obstruction. Then he removes 2 of them to satisfy Test Pilot "Blackout"'s pilot ability for a total of 1 defense die.
4. Backdraft rolls 1 defense die.
5. Backdraft rolls 1 evade result.
6. Backdraft then triggers Lightweight Frame, there are more attack dice (three blank results) than defense dice (one evade result).
7. Backdraft rolls 1 additional defense die per Lightweight Frame's instructions.

By the end of this exchange Test Pilot "Blackout" is fully satisfied in the resolution of his ability as, when he was attacking, the defender rolled 2 less defense dice (to a minimum of 0). The "minimum of 0" is important incase there was a series of effects (Structural Damage, Intimidation, and/or Outmaneuver) in play that caused Backdraft to start with zero agility. In this case Test Pilot "Blackout" is still fully satisfied in the resolution of his ability before the introduction of additional defense die granted by Lightweight Frame as the defender did roll 2 fewer defense dice (to a minimum of 0). Even if the initial roll was exactly zero defense dice, Test Pilot "Blackout"'s ability is triggered and resolved before Lightweight Frame even enters the scenario.

I have a lightweight frame question.

During a game tonight on vassal, I had a range 3 butt shot from kath against QD with LWF. I assumed my opponent would get 4 agility dice, but he was adamant it should be 3. I don't remember his exact rationale for why, but I know it was very confusing.

The way I saw it, it would be 2 dice agility, plus one more for range 3, and then one more because I'm still rolling more attack dice than he has defensive dice.

So who is correct?

45 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

I have a lightweight frame question.

During a game tonight on vassal, I had a range 3 butt shot from kath against QD with LWF. I assumed my opponent would get 4 agility dice, but he was adamant it should be 3. I don't remember his exact rationale for why, but I know it was very confusing.

The way I saw it, it would be 2 dice agility, plus one more for range 3, and then one more because I'm still rolling more attack dice than he has defensive dice.

So who is correct?

With the caveat that he rolls the first three before the fourth, you are.

48 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

I have a lightweight frame question.

During a game tonight on vassal, I had a range 3 butt shot from kath against QD with LWF. I assumed my opponent would get 4 agility dice, but he was adamant it should be 3. I don't remember his exact rationale for why, but I know it was very confusing.

The way I saw it, it would be 2 dice agility, plus one more for range 3, and then one more because I'm still rolling more attack dice than he has defensive dice.

So who is correct?

Imperial Kath rolls 3 dice (assuming no other mods), Quickdraw rolls 2, +1 for range = 3. Kath isn't rolling more dice.

Scum Kath rolls 3 dice, +1 for ability, Quickdraw rolls 2, +1 for range = 3. Kath is rolling more dice, so Quickdraw gain an extra die from LWF.

Did he have Tail Gunner equipped?

15 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Did he have Tail Gunner equipped?

Is Kath a "he" now?

No, but there's about a 99.99% chance the player was, and that's who I was referring to.

No tail gunner, and yes it was scum kath. Thanks for the answer. I guess I was correct afterall.