I have a question about the timing of Lightweight frameworks. According to FAQ 4.2.2, rolling for defense works the following way:

4. "Roll defense dice" step

i. Identify number of defense dice (from Ship card)

ii. Resolve abilities that increase or decrease that number of defense dice (including Range Combat Bonus)

5. "Modify defense dice" step

* These abilities include adding, changing, and rerolling dice results. Dice can be modified multiple times, but each die can be rerolled only once.

i. Attacker resolves abilties that modify defense dice.

ii. Defender resolves abilities that modify defense dice.

So, here's the question: when does Lightweight frameworks additional die enter?

The card states that it activates after the defender rolls his defense dice, but this could mean it either activates in step 4.ii - because we are adding an additional die to the throw if there are more attack dice than defense dice; or step 5.ii. - because adding a die to the throw could also be considered to be a modification of the original throw.

Can anybody provide any clarification about this card?

Thanks!

Do what the card says until it gets an errat or FAQ. Card says roll the additional die after other dice were rolled.

@jmswood the question is if this new dice can be modified by the attacker, for example with Zuckuss. I think this dice is roll before the modify dice step.

4 II clearly. Adding a dice to roll is not a modification.

4 II clearly. Adding a dice to roll is not a modification.

Correct. The interesting thing about the wording, "after rolling defense dice," is it means Lightened Frame adds a die after abilities like Wedge Antilles, Intimidation and Tail Gunner.

Same timing as Vessery's ability. You rolled dice, but before ANYTHING else happens it goes off.

4 II clearly. Adding a dice to roll is not a modification.

Correct. The interesting thing about the wording, "after rolling defense dice," is it means Lightened Frame adds a die after abilities like Wedge Antilles, Intimidation and Tail Gunner.

I would be more interested how it interacts with Range 3 shooting.

Both are added the same time or what?

Definitely not at the same time as range bonus. Range bonus is part of the initial roll; nothing in the rules or card text suggests a Range Bonus is applied any other time. Lightened Frame is after the initial roll. Again, do what the card says.

The interesting thing about the wording, "after rolling defense dice," is it means Lightened Frame adds a die after abilities like Wedge Antilles, Intimidation and Tail Gunner.

No; it adds a die despite those abilities because those abilities reduce agility , not the number of dice rolled. It would add that die even if it was worded "when rolling defense dice you may roll 1 additional die".

The interesting thing about the wording, "after rolling defense dice," is it means Lightened Frame adds a die after abilities like Wedge Antilles, Intimidation and Tail Gunner.

No; it adds a die despite those abilities because those abilities reduce agility , not the number of dice rolled. It would add that die even if it was worded "when rolling defense dice you may roll 1 additional die".

Think about your statement. Reducing agility value reduces the number of defense dice rolled.

Think about your statement. Reducing agility value reduces the number of defense dice rolled.

Think about yours.

If you have 0 agility, those cards do not give you -1 agility and you do not roll -1 defense dice. If you have "add 1 defense die" from another source, those cards do not cancel it out.

If you have 1+ agility, those cards make you roll 1 less die, whether or not you later add more dice.

Think about your statement. Reducing agility value reduces the number of defense dice rolled.

Think about yours.

If you have 0 agility, those cards do not give you -1 agility and you do not roll -1 defense dice. If you have "add 1 defense die" from another source, those cards do not cancel it out.

If you have 1+ agility, those cards make you roll 1 less die, whether or not you later add more dice.

You're math is fine, except for a complete lack of in-game context. Apply Lightened Frame to a realistic scenario. An ARC-170 with Tail Gunner is attacking a TIE Striker with Lightened Frame. The attack is range 3 in the ARC-170's rear arc. The ARC rolls 2 attack dice. The TIE striker rolls 2 defense dice (agility is -1 per Tail Gunner, so the Striker gets 1 die for agility and 1 for range.) Lightened Frame does not trigger, because there are an equal number of attack and defense dice. Same scenario, except at range 2: Lightened Frame would trigger because the TIE Striker initially rolls only 1 die (agility 2 minus 1 for Tail Gunner, no range bonus.)

Your math is fine, except for a complete lack of in-game context. Apply Lightened Frame to a realistic scenario. An ARC-170 with Tail Gunner is attacking a TIE Striker with Lightened Frame. The attack is range 3 in the ARC-170's rear arc. The ARC rolls 2 attack dice. The TIE striker rolls 2 defense dice (agility is -1 per Tail Gunner, so the Striker gets 1 die for agility and 1 for range.) Lightened Frame does not trigger, because there are an equal number of attack and defense dice. Same scenario, except at range 2: Lightened Frame would trigger because the TIE Striker initially rolls only 1 die (agility 2 minus 1 for Tail Gunner, no range bonus.)

And in none of those cases would it be any different if LF said "When defending, if you are rolling fewer defense dice then there are attack dice, roll one additional die". "after rolling defense dice," is not magic.

Your math is fine, except for a complete lack of in-game context. Apply Lightened Frame to a realistic scenario. An ARC-170 with Tail Gunner is attacking a TIE Striker with Lightened Frame. The attack is range 3 in the ARC-170's rear arc. The ARC rolls 2 attack dice. The TIE striker rolls 2 defense dice (agility is -1 per Tail Gunner, so the Striker gets 1 die for agility and 1 for range.) Lightened Frame does not trigger, because there are an equal number of attack and defense dice. Same scenario, except at range 2: Lightened Frame would trigger because the TIE Striker initially rolls only 1 die (agility 2 minus 1 for Tail Gunner, no range bonus.)

And in none of those cases would it be any different if LF said "When defending, if you are rolling fewer defense dice then there are attack dice, roll one additional die". "after rolling defense dice," is not magic.

jmswood is right. If you're at range 3 vs 3 attack dice, then Lightweight frame wouldn't trigger as it states that you only roll one additional defense die if there are less defense dice than attack dice. Since at range 3 it would be 3 atk dice vs 3 def dice, then no additional die from LF would be added.

In the case of Wedge or Tailgunner, the die would get added as you roll 1 less defense die (going from 2 to 1) and then you would add the additional die from LF to your roll, resulting in 4 atk vs 2 def at R1, 3 atk vs 2 def at R2, and 3 atk vs 3 def at R3 (same goes for Tailgunner).

jmswood is right. If you're at range 3 vs 3 attack dice, then Lightweight frame wouldn't trigger as it states that you only roll one additional defense die if there are less defense dice than attack dice. Since at range 3 it would be 3 atk dice vs 3 def dice, then no additional die from LF would be added.

In the case of Wedge or Tailgunner, the die would get added as you roll 1 less defense die (going from 2 to 1) and then you would add the additional die from LF to your roll, resulting in 4 atk vs 2 def at R1, 3 atk vs 2 def at R2, and 3 atk vs 3 def at R3 (same goes for Tailgunner).

Yes, it triggers in those cases. I still fail to see how that's due to the "after rolling defense dice" wording. "When rolling" would work exactly the same. It would have to be something ridiculous like "unless you would have as many defense dice ignoring agility modifications caused by enemy abilities" in order to not work

jmswood is right. If you're at range 3 vs 3 attack dice, then Lightweight frame wouldn't trigger as it states that you only roll one additional defense die if there are less defense dice than attack dice. Since at range 3 it would be 3 atk dice vs 3 def dice, then no additional die from LF would be added.

In the case of Wedge or Tailgunner, the die would get added as you roll 1 less defense die (going from 2 to 1) and then you would add the additional die from LF to your roll, resulting in 4 atk vs 2 def at R1, 3 atk vs 2 def at R2, and 3 atk vs 3 def at R3 (same goes for Tailgunner).

Yes, it triggers in those cases. I still fail to see how that's due to the "after rolling defense dice" wording. "When rolling" would work exactly the same. It would have to be something ridiculous like "unless you would have as many defense dice ignoring agility modifications caused by enemy abilities" in order to not work

Well, the timing of the card says you roll after you roll defense dice - I think it's implicit that you roll your initial agility plus/minus range bonus and other effects but FFG would have to clear that up. As I see it, you would determine the amount of dice to be rolled due to effects from other cards and/or range, roll those dice, and then, if applicable, roll the additional die from LF.

Your math is fine, except for a complete lack of in-game context. Apply Lightened Frame to a realistic scenario. An ARC-170 with Tail Gunner is attacking a TIE Striker with Lightened Frame. The attack is range 3 in the ARC-170's rear arc. The ARC rolls 2 attack dice. The TIE striker rolls 2 defense dice (agility is -1 per Tail Gunner, so the Striker gets 1 die for agility and 1 for range.) Lightened Frame does not trigger, because there are an equal number of attack and defense dice. Same scenario, except at range 2: Lightened Frame would trigger because the TIE Striker initially rolls only 1 die (agility 2 minus 1 for Tail Gunner, no range bonus.)

And in none of those cases would it be any different if LF said "When defending, if you are rolling fewer defense dice then there are attack dice, roll one additional die". "after rolling defense dice," is not magic.

You're right, no magic here. Lightened Frame's "after" is relevant because it creates a unique timing window. The alternate wording you suggested would make Lightened Frame trigger simultaneously with other add/reduce die abilities; in which case initiative becomes a factor.

Well, the timing of the card says you roll after you roll defense dice - I think it's implicit that you roll your initial agility plus/minus range bonus and other effects but FFG would have to clear that up. As I see it, you would determine the amount of dice to be rolled due to effects from other cards and/or range, roll those dice, and then, if applicable, roll the additional die from LF.

According to the wording on the card, I think this is exactly how Lightweight Frame works. I really don't think there's much that needs clearing up, if anything at all.

In Step 4, you figure out how many dice you need to roll and apply anything that change the number of dice, then roll that many. If it's still less than the number of attack dice, trigger Lightweight Frame and roll 1 more die.

jmswood is right. If you're at range 3 vs 3 attack dice, then Lightweight frame wouldn't trigger as it states that you only roll one additional defense die if there are less defense dice than attack dice. Since at range 3 it would be 3 atk dice vs 3 def dice, then no additional die from LF would be added.

In the case of Wedge or Tailgunner, the die would get added as you roll 1 less defense die (going from 2 to 1) and then you would add the additional die from LF to your roll, resulting in 4 atk vs 2 def at R1, 3 atk vs 2 def at R2, and 3 atk vs 3 def at R3 (same goes for Tailgunner).

Yes, it triggers in those cases. I still fail to see how that's due to the "after rolling defense dice" wording. "When rolling" would work exactly the same. It would have to be something ridiculous like "unless you would have as many defense dice ignoring agility modifications caused by enemy abilities" in order to not work

No it don't.

All "number of dice rolled" modifications happens during 4ii, then you proceed to rolling the dice then to modification.

Frame creates unique substep after 4ii and after rolling. It does not care (as i stand corrected here) about sources of the number of dice range: wedge, tail gunner etc. It just looks how many dice are there in the pool.

The interesting thing about the wording, "after rolling defense dice," is it means Lightened Frame adds a die after abilities like Wedge Antilles, Intimidation and Tail Gunner.

No; it adds a die despite those abilities because those abilities reduce agility , not the number of dice rolled. It would add that die even if it was worded "when rolling defense dice you may roll 1 additional die".

Think about your statement. Reducing agility value reduces the number of defense dice rolled.

Rawling is correct here. You're confusing a direct cause with a causality chain.

Reducing agility does not explicitly reduce the defence dice rolled, but it will implicitly affect the number of dice when agility is referenced for a defence roll. The result may be the same, but the mechanic is different, and such mechanics are often important when understanding rules interactions. reducing agility is fundamentally different to rolling one less dice, even if the result is the same number of dice in most cases.

As for how the effect of Lightweight Frame: effects with timing triggers happen in the same window as the trigger. Since Lightweight Frame says to add a dice after defence dice are rolled, then you are still in the 'roll defence dice' step when it happens. This is really no different than physically rolling your defence dice one at a time; that doesn't screw up the timing windows either.

What's important here is that, as the only after-the-fact addition of rolled dice, you cannot combine it with other effects that add defence dice, since those would have to have all been triggered already – range bonus included. You cannot fudge the use of timing windows to add the Lightweight Frame dice and then add another (sans additional cards being added later with similar timing). I assume this is the intent of the card: that you can never use it while ending up rolling more than three dice.

The interesting thing about the wording, "after rolling defense dice," is it means Lightened Frame adds a die after abilities like Wedge Antilles, Intimidation and Tail Gunner.

No; it adds a die despite those abilities because those abilities reduce agility , not the number of dice rolled. It would add that die even if it was worded "when rolling defense dice you may roll 1 additional die".

Think about your statement. Reducing agility value reduces the number of defense dice rolled.

Rawling is correct here. You're confusing a direct cause with a causality chain.

Reducing agility does not explicitly reduce the defence dice rolled, but it will implicitly affect the number of dice when agility is referenced for a defence roll. The result may be the same, but the mechanic is different, and such mechanics are often important when understanding rules interactions. reducing agility is fundamentally different to rolling one less dice, even if the result is the same number of dice in most cases.

As for how the effect of Lightweight Frame: effects with timing triggers happen in the same window as the trigger. Since Lightweight Frame says to add a dice after defence dice are rolled, then you are still in the 'roll defence dice' step when it happens. This is really no different than physically rolling your defence dice one at a time; that doesn't screw up the timing windows either.

What's important here is that, as the only after-the-fact addition of rolled dice, you cannot combine it with other effects that add defence dice, since those would have to have all been triggered already – range bonus included. You cannot fudge the use of timing windows to add the Lightweight Frame dice and then add another (sans additional cards being added later with similar timing). I assume this is the intent of the card: that you can never use it while ending up rolling more than three dice.

Not quite.

You can never use it to end up rolling more dice than your opponent.

If you had Frame and a range bonus against a Ghost's primary attack you'd get both, for instance.

Someone already said the exact reason why it is after... but this is lost between other statement.

If it was before rolling, it would trigger with other add / remove dice trigger, then you could order your trigger to add the dice from Lightweight before other defense die and end up with more defense than attack.

They made it after roll because they wanted to rule out any meddling people could find out.

Also, there is the potential benefit of looking at the roll before adding it or not. Is it relevant, not now, because I'm not aware of missing on purpose defense roll, but who knows in the future.

Yeah I think that whenever you actually add the die, it's clear that the intent is you can't roll an extra die from LF and then add another die due to range or other effects.

So, is LW frame a modification? Does it bypass Zuckuss crew?

Finn crew adds a dice after rolling and is a mod, correct? Does OL shutdown Finn crew?

If LW frame is not a modification, then it works on OL at range 1 vs Bombers, Strikers, etc.

Lightweight Frame is not a dice modification.

It does not bypass Zuckuss crew, because the additional die will be around for Zuckuss to reroll by the time Attacker Modifies Defense Dice comes around.

Finn adds a die result, and is a dice modification, which does get shut down by Omega Leader.

Yes, Lightweight Frame on a 2AGI TIE at Range 1 of Omega Leader would work despite OL's ability.