Limit the Lats Razzi stress removal to once per turn. Should put her more in line with C3PO crew.

On 12/5/2016 at 9:18 PM, markcsoul said:

Good god would that be horrible to face. 4 dice at all 3 ranges?!?! AND 2 more health points? Dash would easily be the best ship in the game.

As I said before, I didn't mean to imply that all of those changes should be implemented, and that the Outrider title should allow you to count the HLC as a primary weapon for the purpose of upgrades and crew like HSCP and Gunner; but let's do the math anyway:

Rey has 3 more health, 1 more pilot skill, and with Finn, is throwing 4 dice at enemies in arc range 2-3 (5 at range 1) with only a slightly worse dial, for 50 points.

Dash with just HLC and the Outrider Title is 48, with a range 1 donut hole, and is in that weird limbo of PS7. Power creep much?

1 hour ago, StriderZessei said:

As I said before, I didn't mean to imply that all of those changes should be implemented, and that the Outrider title should allow you to count the HLC as a primary weapon for the purpose of upgrades and crew like HSCP and Gunner; but let's do the math anyway:

Rey has 3 more health, 1 more pilot skill, and with Finn, is throwing 4 dice at enemies in arc range 2-3 (5 at range 1) with only a slightly worse dial, for 50 points.

Dash with just HLC and the Outrider Title is 48, with a range 1 donut hole, and is in that weird limbo of PS7. Power creep much?

Dash can also go through asteroids, has the barrel roll action, and has an extra agility. Dash can just fly around in circles with no concern for arc or for asteroids. Rey takes a lot more skill to fly as she has to keep arc and she has to dodge asteroids. Power creep much? Don't think so.

11 minutes ago, TBot said:

Dash can also go through asteroids, has the barrel roll action, and has an extra agility. Dash can just fly around in circles with no concern for arc or for asteroids. Rey takes a lot more skill to fly as she has to keep arc and she has to dodge asteroids. Power creep much? Don't think so.

Hmm. I suppose I do take Dash's pilot ability for granted at times. And indeed, different ships are different.

That said, one could hardly argue their similarities, and I hardly think Dash would suddenly be overpowered if YT-2400s had one more hull, if only to set them apart from small ships like Quadjumpers and ARC-170s. And Dash still can't fire if he's parked on an asteroid, and enemies still get the obstructed fire bonus when defending from his attacks, so it's not like he can ignore them entirely.

I don't know, perhaps I'm just biased after some bad experiences and need to recognize gameplay and balance > lore.

Now that I've had a chance to watch the original video -- generally concur with the nerf list. Agree with your thoughts on the T-65 but I didn't want to get into it because there are threads full of that (so, so many threads).

Hadn't thought of B-Wings, agreed that I wouldn't mind a bit of love for them.

For bombs, I think the big thing that needs to come along is something analogous to Sabine for the other factions. The slam action is a big deal in making K-Wing lists good, but not having a Sabine makes for a bigger hill to climb when building a non-Rebel bombs list. If nothing else, she's going to make it hard to properly balance bombs because they'll be a lot more effective and consistent for one faction than for the other two. That's not really a buff thing, per se, as much as something I think is eventually going to have to come along.

Too bad the E-Wing gets no love. Always overlooked, poor little guy.

Why would you like to buff dash? There are tons, tons of stuff that need help if we count every pilot. (like, most of the pilots in the game actually) And dash isn't one of them. I get that you like to play him, but it's not a good enough reason.

I'm not sure starting up another avenue for the same few complaints is a good idea - unsurprisingly, we've already got votes for Palpatine (it's a single die mod a turn that costs 29pts and requires one to fly a Lambda shuttle well), Manaroo, Zuckuss (both complained about only because of one specific list), and TLT's (really? this is still a point of contention for some people?).

And as for suggesting 'nerfs' to TIE/x7...seriously, back the [Expletive Deleted] off. Do people remember how long the Defender was laughably overpriced? Do people have any idea how difficult it is to actually fly Defenders well because of their peculiar dial and the obvious predictability of the high-speed moves and k-turn? Do people just plum forget all the things in the game that ruin Defenders? Bombs, Autoblasters (because auto damage doesn't care about an evade) Tractor Beams (an evade token is a lot less useful when the agility isn't there to back it up), Stress (a single Evade without anything else is rarely enough to stop concentrated firepower), Ion (no free evades from ion moves), token removal/theft (of which there are tons of examples - Wes Janson, Old Teroch, Palob Godalhi, to name but three...). The Defender is finally where it should always have been, so leave it the [Expletive Deleted] alone.

15 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

Hmm. I suppose I do take Dash's pilot ability for granted at times. And indeed, different ships are different.

That said, one could hardly argue their similarities, and I hardly think Dash would suddenly be overpowered if YT-2400s had one more hull, if only to set them apart from small ships like Quadjumpers and ARC-170s. And Dash still can't fire if he's parked on an asteroid, and enemies still get the obstructed fire bonus when defending from his attacks, so it's not like he can ignore them entirely.

I don't know, perhaps I'm just biased after some bad experiences and need to recognize gameplay and balance > lore.

Fair point, they are similar. I am biased as well. When I was learning the game and trying to get better at flying I played against a fat dash and he just flew around in circles lobbing 4 red dice. It felt cheap and unskilled. I'm in the corner that believes PWT's were a mistake and a 4 dice PWT at range 3 seems too heighten this. I do appreciate that they gave Dash a donut hole for some balance. I like that they tried to get away from PWTs with the shadowcasters mobile arc and at least sort of get away from it with Rey/Finn considering she is fairly useless without getting arc.

2 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

I'm not sure starting up another avenue for the same few complaints is a good idea - unsurprisingly, we've already got votes for Palpatine (it's a single die mod a turn that costs 29pts and requires one to fly a Lambda shuttle well), Manaroo, Zuckuss (both complained about only because of one specific list), and TLT's (really? this is still a point of contention for some people?).

And as for suggesting 'nerfs' to TIE/x7...seriously, back the [Expletive Deleted] off. Do people remember how long the Defender was laughably overpriced? Do people have any idea how difficult it is to actually fly Defenders well because of their peculiar dial and the obvious predictability of the high-speed moves and k-turn? Do people just plum forget all the things in the game that ruin Defenders? Bombs, Autoblasters (because auto damage doesn't care about an evade) Tractor Beams (an evade token is a lot less useful when the agility isn't there to back it up), Stress (a single Evade without anything else is rarely enough to stop concentrated firepower), Ion (no free evades from ion moves), token removal/theft (of which there are tons of examples - Wes Janson, Old Teroch, Palob Godalhi, to name but three...). The Defender is finally where it should always have been, so leave it the [Expletive Deleted] alone.

Yeah, it was too weak, now it's too strong. We haven't forgot. Defenders are 50% of all the ships we see (look at regionals data) and are totally dominating. Double focus + evade on 3 hull soontir used to be a "token stack". It came with the price of stress token. Defenders have 3 hull, 3 shield and 3 agi, backed up by focus AND evade every turn, even when they k-turn, no stress. They're not THAT bad, but they definietely need a small nerf. Since defenders hit, most of other imperial ships became obsolete. I don't know why people are so blind to say defenders are alright. And tractor beam doesn't do anything against defenders (you won't hit then). And with all the counters you bring, many of them are good against defenders, but even better against everything else/similar to them.

2 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

And as for suggesting 'nerfs' to TIE/x7...seriously, back the [Expletive Deleted] off. Do people remember how long the Defender was laughably overpriced?

This is always my favorite argument.

"You all need to [Expletive Deleted] off and enjoy Johnny's dictatorship. Johnny was really poor when he was little! Don't you all remember? Therefore, any level of atrocities he commits now are acceptable because he once was very poor!"

3 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

Do people have any idea how difficult it is to actually fly Defenders well because of their peculiar dial and the obvious predictability of the high-speed moves and k-turn?

It really isn't difficult to fly them. Being predictable doesn't mean difficult. Neither does high speed maneuvers (See- Shadowcaster). You know what happens when you put x7 Defenders in the hands of a high level player? Those "difficulties" become strengths, because they are smart enough to know how to push their opponent into falling for the trap of blocking the "predictable" maneuvers. And even when they are predictable, blocking them does little for you anyways. That just means you have one less gun on them and they have one less token on a 3 agility, 6 health ship. Or you can not block them and have fun chewing through the token stack. Lose-lose for you.

They are easy to fly.

3 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

Do people just plum forget all the things in the game that ruin Defenders? Bombs, Autoblasters (because auto damage doesn't care about an evade) Tractor Beams (an evade token is a lot less useful when the agility isn't there to back it up), Stress (a single Evade without anything else is rarely enough to stop concentrated firepower), Ion (no free evades from ion moves), token removal/theft (of which there are tons of examples - Wes Janson, Old Teroch, Palob Godalhi, to name but three...).

Bombs- Yes, they work. One can argue they only came into the meta because of x7. Wouldn't be surprised if x7 players start finding ways to fortress against Bombing lists though.

Autoblasters- Nice. Those are gonna do you real good in those match ups against 0 and 1 agility ships. Not an awful choice, but does struggle in a lot of potential match ups. Also, remember you are getting 4 dice right back at you almost for certain if you are getting a shot off with these.

Tractor beams- And you're getting through the token stack to hit them with this how again? Now Ketsu, Shadowcaster and Space tug array on the other hand can do some stuff, but again, run into double Ghost running those things and you are wasting points.

Stress- Ya, it can do something , but with a way to turnaround still and a free token still in tow, it isn't a cut and dry match up by any means. Maybe 50/50 if you are especially good with the stresshog.

Ion- Good with bombs especially. Ion cannons and turrets have the same issue as tractor beams though- punching through the stack. If you can though, it's a solid option. Ions aren't doing much for you in other match ups though.

token removal/theft- Those pilots you listed just aren't scary enough though. Teroch does a bit for you, and Palob is ok. Wes just isn't going to cut it in most scenarios. If you are bringing them for the match up, even if their ability is good, their chassis puts them back on level footing with the Defenders. The only pilots I would say truly neuter x7 is a) Carnor Jax, and b) Hotshot RAC . So yes, if you run 2-5 specific pilots out of hundreds, you are taking it right to the x7s! Nice! I'm so glad they give me so many options!

But these reasons are hardly the reason x7 is a problem. Players can git gud or whatever and learn to deal with them for all I care. The problem is they are so much better than everything else in the Imperial faction that Imperial players are basically forced into flying at least 1 x7 in their list no matter what. Yes, there are exceptions, and as players are getting bored with x7 we are seeing more players branch out to different ships (thankfully), but I would strongly prefer less than 50% of imperial ships flown to be x7s (as currently they constitute about 50% of the Imperial faction competitively). Not sure we are there yet, and not sure we ever will unless a change is made. I've been wrong before though, and I trust FFG can make things right.

21 hours ago, Kdubb said:

This is always my favorite argument.

"You all need to [Expletive Deleted] off and enjoy Johnny's dictatorship. Johnny was really poor when he was little! Don't you all remember? Therefore, any level of atrocities he commits now are acceptable because he once was very poor!

That's not the argument I was making with that point, actually - more that as little as 2 points and an evade were the difference between the Defender being a joke ship that you never seriously put on the table and it's current position, and so even small changes to it now risk veering too close back to the former. But good on you for assuming, so you could get your comedy bit in.

21 hours ago, Kdubb said:

It really isn't difficult to fly them. Being predictable doesn't mean difficult. Neither does high speed maneuvers (See- Shadowcaster).

It is difficult to fly them well (as I emphasised in my original post), because contrary to popular belief you can't just fly straight at your enemy and then 'Defender Special' 4K your way through the rest of the game. The Lancer has the advantage of a mobile arc that greatly mitigates the need to be concerned with ship facing, meaning it's far easier to use high-speed moves and keep guns on target than for a small base, single-arc ship.

21 hours ago, Kdubb said:

You know what happens when you put x7 Defenders in the hands of a high level player? Those "difficulties" become strengths, because they are smart enough to know how to push their opponent into falling for the trap of blocking the "predictable" maneuvers.

And presumably their opponent, at the same high level of skill, will be able to avoid those traps, or create situations where it's nigh impossible for the Defender to escape being blocked. If you're going to make that assumption, it has to go both ways.

21 hours ago, Kdubb said:

And even when they are predictable, blocking them does little for you anyways. That just means you have one less gun on them and they have one less token on a 3 agility, 6 health ship. Or you can not block them and have fun chewing through the token stack. Lose-lose for you.

That 'one less token' is 50% of their potential defences, which can and will have a serious impact on their survivability if it can be denied - a single evade and three agility dice is far from impenetrable, particularly against multiple shots. There's also the obvious positional advantage you can gain, particularly if it's the k-turn that you block, and if a dedicated blocker like a cheap A-Wing or TIE Fighter is able to catch them, the loss of the gun isn't so big a problem.
That's not even getting into the negative impact it will have on their shots at you - being able to evade everything means very little if you can't put damage onto your opponent either.

21 hours ago, Kdubb said:

They are easy to fly.

I have been flying Defenders since I started playing (Wave 5), and I completely and categorically reject your stance. I'll be damned if I'll let all the time I put in to learning it be disregarded so easily - getting the hang of the Defender requires patience and practice. It becomes very difficult (particularly after the initial engagement) for an x/7 to keep arc on it's target, avoid being blocked and get the evade, and knowing which one(s) to sacrifice (and when) is key.

21 hours ago, Kdubb said:

Bombs- Yes, they work. One can argue they only came into the meta because of x7. Wouldn't be surprised if x7 players start finding ways to fortress against Bombing lists though.

I'd say the only ones who would argue that are those who came into the game only recently. Bombs have been a credible and present threat since Wave 7 at least (doubly so once Sabine arrived) as a commonly understood counter to token-stacking aces.

Fortressing is daft and I seriously doubt it's viability as a strategy against even a remotely competent player.

21 hours ago, Kdubb said:

Autoblasters- Nice. Those are gonna do you real good in those match ups against 0 and 1 agility ships. Not an awful choice, but does struggle in a lot of potential match ups. Also, remember you are getting 4 dice right back at you almost for certain if you are getting a shot off with these.

I was mainly referring to the Autoblaster Turret (since the Cannon variant is rarely if ever seen, I included it under the catch-all for completeness), which should be getting unanswered, out-of-arc shots the majority of the time it is used. If a Defender flies into an Autoblaster bubble, they are far from nimble enough to easily dart out of it, and if you can force them to roll in order to avoid it then you severly comprimise their offence and defence. At 2pts it's cheap enough to not matter a huge amount if you don't fire it during a game, or fire at low agility targets.

21 hours ago, Kdubb said:

Tractor beams- And you're getting through the token stack to hit them with this how again? Now Ketsu, Shadowcaster and Space tug array on the other hand can do some stuff, but again, run into double Ghost running those things and you are wasting points.

Ketsu and Quadjumpers are the main enablers for such a strategy, certainly - even one of those auto-applied tractor beams can open the door for more on the same target (through the Tractor Beam cannon or Shadow Caster title), and one tractor movement may well be all you need to screw up a round for an x/7 - slinging it onto a rock or forcing it into a position where it does not have arc. The potential for low agility ships to largely ignore tractors is why you don't build too heavily into them: one or two Gunrunners (at 19/20pts each) will probably be enough.

21 hours ago, Kdubb said:

Stress- Ya, it can do something , but with a way to turnaround still and a free token still in tow, it isn't a cut and dry match up by any means. Maybe 50/50 if you are especially good with the stresshog.

A way to turn around that is entirely linear (leading to fixed approach angles), easily blocked, and does not allow actions (cutting their defence by 50% and hampering their offence) - with the added bonus that non-MkII engine Defenders will have to go straight at some point to clear it, making an already quite predictable ship even moreso. Stress control is quite prevalent in the game right now, mostly owing to Ventress but also the new Stressbot carrier, Braylen Stramm (who is both better at it and much harder to avoid), and Rigged Cargo Chutes. Let's also not forget Latts Razzi crew and BMST, both of which punish stressed targets.

21 hours ago, Kdubb said:

Ion- Good with bombs especially. Ion cannons and turrets have the same issue as tractor beams though- punching through the stack. If you can though, it's a solid option. Ions aren't doing much for you in other match ups though.

Bombs are certainly the easiest source, but Ion Cannons and Turrets can still worry Defenders (likewise Tractor Beams, to a lesser extent) because they cannot afford to be hit by them, and so will spend every token they have to in order to avoid even one hit. If your Ion weapon is firing early, you can use it to strip tokens off so your other ships have an easier time. If it is firing late, then you can expect your opponent to either save some tokens for it or they risk having nothing left for it when it comes.

I fail to see how ion 'doesn't do much in other matchups' - the potential to dictate the movement of any ship is a huge advantage.

21 hours ago, Kdubb said:

Token removal/theft- Those pilots you listed just aren't scary enough though. Teroch does a bit for you, and Palob is ok. Wes just isn't going to cut it in most scenarios. If you are bringing them for the match up, even if their ability is good, their chassis puts them back on level footing with the Defenders. The only pilots I would say truly neuter x7 is a) Carnor Jax, and b) Hotshot RAC . So yes, if you run 2-5 specific pilots out of hundreds, you are taking it right to the x7s! Nice! I'm so glad they give me so many options!

You downplay these pilots too much - Palob is far more than just 'ok' (against x/7's he's public enemy number 1), and Teroch can be horrifying - an esteemed member of the 186th flies Teroch at the moment. Perhaps Wes wouldn't 'cut it', but have you tried? I think a lot of folk are taking the 'internet wisdom' that the X-Wing is unusably bad too close to heart and arn't willing to even try it.

And yes, these abilities are generally limited to specific pilots, but said abilities are just one of the many anti-x/7 tools - and token denial can be as simple as blocking, in any case.

21 hours ago, Kdubb said:

The problem is they are so much better than everything else in the Imperial faction that Imperial players are basically forced into flying at least 1 x7 in their list no matter what. Yes, there are exceptions, and as players are getting bored with x7 we are seeing more players branch out to different ships (thankfully), but I would strongly prefer less than 50% of imperial ships flown to be x7s (as currently they constitute about 50% of the Imperial faction competitively).

I don't think anyone is 'forced' to include one - all it means is that the Defender can fit into a lot of lists (and clearly does), but it doesn't come close to warping the game as heavily as the pre-change Phantom or torpedo boat Jumpmasters did, hence my denial that it belongs on some kind of 'nerf list'.

Fortunately, though, we know that FFG are reluctant to alter card text or function in such substantial ways unless it is unavoidable (Scyk title, for example), and so I think any change to x/7 is incredibly unlikely. It's a fact I am thankful for, as folk clamouring for 'fixes' is already irksome enough without trying to 'unfix a fix' that already happened.

Nerfs:

Palp: range limit at least. Preferably cost: 1 epic point.

x7: append 'as a free action, unless you are touching a ship or obstacle' or words to that effect, so that it's not stressproof and blockproof.

Manaroo: range limit.

Attani Mindlink: append 'you cannot be assigned more than one of each token' (referring to stress and focus tokens).

Zuckuss crew: Append 'After executing a manoeuvre, if you are stressed and did not remove at least one stress token, take 1 damage and remove one stress token'. Or something like that.

Sabine crew: range limit.

Buffs:

StarViper: torpedo slot upgrade: cost reduction (not sure how much, probably at least 2 points) and text: 'when you reveal a bank manoeuvre, you may instead execute a straight or turn manoeuvre of the same speed and difficulty'. Green turns, super flexible dial to make up for Guri costing MORE than Fenn despite a worse dial, worse defences, worse pilot ability, and FOUR LESS PS.

Punisher: Title: 'after you make a primary weapon attack, you may immediately make an attack using an equipped missile or torpedo upgrade. When you drop a bomb, you may instead drop two identical bombs, 1 using the 1bank right template, 1 using the 1 bank left template'. Also make it give infinite ammunition. Make punishers SCARY. I prefer making them terrifying alphas which are still make of tissue paper to just making them cheaper or tougher.

K-Fighter: heck knows. SOmething interesting that makes them other than just 'scum x-wing'.

X-Wing. Dual card title related to the linked versus alternating fire modes from the Rogue Squadron games. Something like 'Quad lasers: linked: when you make a primary weapon attack, you may flip this card to turn all hit results into crit results/Quad lasers: stutter: when you make a primary weapon attack, you must turn all crit and blank results into eye results. During the end phase if you did not make a primary weapon attack this round, you may flip this card.' Giving a big reliability buff or a big critical damage spike. This one's probably not balanced as is, but something along those lines. Also: Incessantly Beeping Astromech: 0 points: all ships at range 1 must treat all eye results as blank results. He makes it hard to focus :V

Imperials need something like Sabine to improve the consistency and reliability of their ordnance. You could make it Punisher-specific and kill two birds with one stone.

1 hour ago, MalusCalibur said:

See 2 posts above

Your argument is much more palatable with some context. We have some obvious disagreements, but so these things go. I'll just return some soft rebuttals here with no expectation for much more discussion (I've obviously already pulled for more context from you than I reasonably should have, which you politely shared), so don't feel the need to "return fire". Your points are clear and valid from the post above, but feel free to reply again if you so desire.

-I would still contend that Defenders are easy to fly, and would place them probably in the top tier of "pick up and win" options in the game. The floor is low and the ceiling is high. Compare them with any ship that does not have a PWT and is out of boost/barrel roll (and the necessary high PS and elite in that case), and I'm taking the Defender dial. At the very least, the dial trumps every dial without a green turn, which I'm gonna guess is well over 50% of the dials in the game.

-I don't recall seeing bombs at any top tables in wave 7, or tables in general if I'm being honest, though some data on that would be fun to see. Surely Sabine is the main culprit for their massive growth in use, but as earlier stated, it sure doesn't hurt that Defenders are everywhere and don't like them either, and an argument can be made they are just as much, if not more so, the reason for bombs popularity boom.

- When I say ions aren't effective in other matchups, I should more appropriately say in some other match ups. Having to double ion large bases makes them much more difficult to utilize effectively, and considering a lot of large base lists can nuke a ship at range 3, ion turrets are gonna have real trouble doing much for you.

-The question with Palob and Wes isn't if they are effective, it's if they are effective enough . I think their abilities are fantastic, but x7s have such a massive leg up on them by being both cost effective and having an easy way to turn around vs their poor dials, that I think the abilities simply put them on even footing with, instead of countering, x7s. Sidenote: I have ran Wes a lot in the past alongside Opportunist Keyan. Unfortunately, the proliferation of token stacks has effectively neutralized all effectiveness of that combo. I might pick it up for casual night tonight though just to see how things shake out.

-While x7 may not be warping to the meta game as a whole as much as pre-nerf Phantoms did, I do believe it is having a similar effect on the Imperial faction. There is "being a good" option, and there is " always being a good" option. X7s and pre nerf Phantom are/were the latter, while everything else in the faction (outside of Palp shuttle perhaps) is lucky if it is the former. This is because most things other Imperial ships do, x7s just do better. I think a pull back of a point on the x7 title may even be enough to wrangle it in and put it back to the "good" category from the current "always good".

And apologies if the dictator Johnny joke felt like a low blow. Simply was a creative way to get a point across from my end, albeit a bit too snarky I'm certain.

Nerf

Manaroo loses ept

X7 costs 0 or free evade action after 3,4,5 speed manoeuvre

Other good solution IMHO, is to make X7 title unique.

I like the idea of a title for xwing... a dual card like Uwing:

-Wings in attack to get an attack dice or a mini-focus.

-And not attack mode to get more green maneuvers in the dial or a free evade.

Making /x7 unique would be a very solid solution I think. It would probably be balanced at that.

29 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Making /x7 unique would be a very solid solution I think. It would probably be balanced at that.

I would like to tone down x/7 overall. Making it unique means that you start making empire list with Ryad/Vessery as this 1 ship will still be overpowered with no real competition among Empire ranks.

My preferred solution would be to tone it down as well - but making it unique would probably be a functional fix. It would hardly be the first time the Empire's ship selection starts with a big glowing neon sign saying 'THIS ONE FIRST' - indeed, after the days of Soontir, it would be refreshing to have it be possible to choose between multiple ships for that sign to point to instead of just the one...