RE: Warp Lighting Cannon

So it's my understanding that I could play this card onto one of my opponents. It's a great tactict, especially in a chaos deck where first one could use the warp lightning cannon to corrupt an enemy unit, then when your opponent used that unit to attack you, you pull out the "Blood for the Blood God" card.

My question is this however, the first line of the card says "Destruction only." Does that mean it can only be played on other destruction cards or does that mean that it can only be included in destruction based deck? I.e. the above tactic would work against an orc / chaos / de opponent but not a dwarf / human / he opponent?

-z-

Can only be included in a Destruction Deck.

You can attach the card to any unit irregardless of their affinity for good or evil.

FiendishDevil said:

is this a true confirmed statement or opinion?

cards that say "quest zone only" are pretty clear that they are played only in the quest zone. Destruction only could mean either it can only be played in destruction decks or that it can only be played on destruction cards...

Youre probably right but who knows...

rules page 16 defines the keywords "Destruction only" as "These cards cannot be used in an Order deck". It says nothing about the targets.

then that answers the question

GooberVA said:

But surely as soon as the card is attached it is then being "used" by the Order player?

pixelgeek said:

But the attached card still isn't in the Order deck. Using it in play has nothing to do with it as far as the rules go, only including it your deck is prohibited. Or at least that's how I read the quoted part from the rules.

Has someone sent this to Nate? Certainly needs an official response

There is no reason to think you can not play the card on "Order" units, since the rule simply states that it cant be used in an order deck.

There is no reason to add additional meaning or rules to the term "Destruction only". Playing the card on an "order" unit does not add the card to the Order deck.

If you need confirmation, just email rule support.

The card is not being used by the Order player. The order player does not own, nor control, the Warp Lightning Cannon. The fact that it has a beneficial ability granted to an attached unit does not make it a card the Order Player is using, or one which he can even necessarily gain any benefit out of (considering once that unit is corrupted it may never get a chance to be restored). If the card could only be played on your own units it would say so (like the Chaos mutation supports).

The rules are clear about what "Destruction Only" and "Order Only" mean, but if you need more official confirmation send it to Nate.

dormouse said:

He controls it in exactly the same way that a Destruction player does once it is played. Your point isn't really meaningful in the context of the game.

I'm more than willing to conceed that the intent might very well be what you guys are saying but it does still need to be clarified and its entirely consistent with the way the rule is written that it can't be attached to an Order unit. The rule does include the word "use" and its not a big stretch to argue that this precludes the attachment being put on an Order unit.

If someone can come up with a good explanation as to why a Skaven Warp Lighting gun crew would suddenly start working for some Empire Pistoliers I'm ready to listen to it :-)

My main reason for wanting to get this clarified is that the negative effect of the card, which players want to assign to enemy units, is there to balance to card in Destruction decks. So it makes no sense that there was an intention that it be added to Order units.

Its always amusing to see debates rage here as people are always willing to bend the meaning of words or phrases but not really will to listen to other people do it :-)

PixelGeek,

I hear what you are saying, however:

1) The reason that the words "Destruction Only" or "Order Only" are put on the Neutral Cards is so that they don't go in the wrong deck, not because they cannot be played on another races cards

2) The "why should a Warp Lightning crew work for a group of Pistoliers" - again, while I see your point, However, there is nothing precluding me from playing "Blessing of Isha" on a unit of Chaos Knights so that they can never be corrupted and Valkia the Bloody cannot transfer her damage from her to them, and why would Isha bless a unit of Chaos Knights?

While I think that the card is very versatile, and quite useful, I don't think that the intent is that "Destruction Only" has any other meaning than what was stated on page 16 in the rulebook - which does not state that Order cards may not be their target.

Send it to Nate. I already explained that a card you played is controlled by you at all times unless there is a card effect that transfers the control to another player. This is just a fact of the game. You cannot ever use a card you do not control, in any fashion, no matter how beneficial or negative its effects are, unless there is a card effect that says otherwise. This is also a fact of the game. The rule on page 16 reads, "Some neutral cards have the keyword Destruction Only. These cards cannot be used in an Order (Empire, Dwarf, or High Elf) deck " (emphasis mine). How is the card being on one of their units argued to be used in their deck ? Until a logical argument can be made that shows on character = in deck there is little merit to the expansion of the rule about this keyword.

As to how a Dwarf would come into possession of a Warp Lightning Cannon, first, that is a level of thinking beyond game terms and rules and entering the real world, usually not a sound argument to make to justify something when there is no rule to support it, second, through every known bit of military history, forces have purposefully sacrificed ground, falling back to lure their foes into seizing territory that could not be adequately defended. They have allowed opposing forces to seize wells, food stores, and even equipment that has been poisoned, spoiled, or otherwise sabotaged. This is a favorite tactic of guerrilla forces the world over. My playing a Warp Lightning Cannon on your character to corrupt it and then trigger some sort of combo which wipes it out before you can take advantage of the boost easily falls into that 2500 year history of known warfare.

pixelgeek said:

Guys, theres an entirely different problem with the cannon, which so far each of you has missed. The fact that it is destruction only, only affects deckbuilding, this really doesnt need any confirmation or clarification. The problem lies in the first sentence of the CAPITAL PHASE paragraph. You are allowed to play unit, support and quest cards ONLY into one of your three zones! However, why I still consider this card a bit unclear is that, many other atachments include the line "attach to a target unit you control". Thus there is a distinction between attachments. My wild guess is, that this might be in preparation for multiplayer rules, where you might have friendly player's units in your zones (pure speculation) There are many other cards, which use language that takes into account several opponents, so multiplayer rules will probably be added (there is quite some speculation about this allready)

If you think about the Warhammer Universe, i can easily make sense of the Canon being placed on the Pistoliers. Chaos preys upon the weaknesses of the non destruction races (and probably the other destruction forces as well). So as the Pistolier unit is galavanting around the Empire they stumble across the ancient but powerful weapon that will give them great power in future battles. There is a beguiling, nay, "seductive quality" to this ancient weapon. The Pistolier unit ends up stopping and spending their time and efforts protecting their new found totem of power.

Feel better about the card interaction now?

Ranhothep said:

certainly a good point... the rules are clear that the Support card cannot be played into another players zone. So attaching the "Destruction Only" support card onto a unit in another players zone (regardless of race) is pretty clearly not allowed by the rulebook rules. Except of course the "Golden Rule" , which would seem to overule the rulebook, and the target in another players zone certainly seems allowed since the card says "target" and not "target you control"

Simply stating "target unit" doesnt look to me as overruling the rule about where to play the card, but nevertheless, one more interesting point of view to justify a clarification of this card.

is an "attachment" a "support card"?

mateooo said:

Yes, their card type is "Support" and they have "Attachment" as a trait.

well then we have a great discussion.

I imagine that they have not created any "curse" type cards that get played on your opponents cards to minimize the chance to losing one of your cards. This might definitely be the case with Warp Lightning Cannon.

Nate for confirmation.

mateooo said:

After looking at all Attachments I don't think this discussion is necessary. So far all Attachments specify to which units they can be attached. "Attach to target unit in your Battlefield", "Attach to target unit you control" and "Attach to target unit" are all pretty common. So I would say that the Warp Lightning Cannon can in fact be attached to enemy units because the card text says "Attach to target unit".

Aykenger said:

What makes you think you can ignore the rule about playing support cards only into one of your 3 zones?

Ranhothep said:

The Golden Rule states that card text always takes precedence over rules. Since the card specifies where it can be played, the rule on page 11 ("When a unit, support, or quest card is played in this manner, the controller of the card chooses where (amongst his three zones) the card is placed.") is overwritten. And the designers differentiation between "Attach to target unit you control" and "Attach to target unit" supports this, because it would be unnecessary to differentiate when you can only attach support cards to your own units.

Both ways of playing the card seem to be understable. Until we get an official answer I will keep on playing this card the way is only playable on your own cards, following the more restrictive rule of "the controller of the card chooses where (amongst his three zones) the card is placed". The text "target unit" and not "target unit you control" does not override the book rule about where a card can be placed, imo. I hope we get an official answer soon, tho.

Regards.