The biggest hurdle to saying a knight level character is a fully trained Jedi is probably the Reflect and Parry ranks it takes to be close to how the Jedi in the movies and shows behave. They flat out step in front of their allies to deflect incoming fire back at the enemies with high precision while wearing robes, and even Padawans are capable of doing this. You'd pretty much need several trees worth of lightsaber training to be that good.

But they don't always reflect the dmage back, often they just block the bolt and send it somehwere else. I think at least some of those deflections can be cleverly narrated misses by the shooters. It makes more sense given the game rules on parry and reflect. But they sure do have quite some parry/reflects ranks (more reflect probably) and a high strain. (To be honest we mostly see the better combat trained padawans and jedi, remember how many jedi failed their reflects on Geonosis)

You all have some crazy XP thresholds, and part of it is from the films focusing on extraordinary people and not the average denizen. Knight level XP can get you in the ballpark of Phantom Menace Obi-wan, a padawan ready for his trials.

I wouldn't even call "Knight Level" Xp ready for the trials. More like just elevated from an initiate to a Padawan.

Padawans typically start at what, twelve years old? What does Phantom Menace Obi-wan do that can't be obtained at Knight level?

Enhance leap maxed out; Sense defense committed and turned on, and possibly offence commit as well as tossing the odd B1...which means at least FR2.

Plus, I think it doesn't do the SW universe justice to try and define the characters by only what we see them directly do. There are many abilities simply implied by their position: fixing the hyperdrive (mechanics), finding a place to take the queen (politics, astrogation), never mind many years of intensive training.

Any direct evidence for Sense? Curious about trying to build him as a Knight level pc

How could there be direct evidence for Sense? It's invisible. It just seems obvious if they're deflecting the kind of barrage they handled in the first few minutes of the film, it wasn't just a rank of Reflect... all just MHO of course.

You all have some crazy XP thresholds, and part of it is from the films focusing on extraordinary people and not the average denizen. Knight level XP can get you in the ballpark of Phantom Menace Obi-wan, a padawan ready for his trials.

I wouldn't even call "Knight Level" Xp ready for the trials. More like just elevated from an initiate to a Padawan.

Padawans typically start at what, twelve years old? What does Phantom Menace Obi-wan do that can't be obtained at Knight level?

Weeeeell....

In the Clone Wars movie, there's this exchange:

Captain Rex : Who's the youngling?

Ahsoka Tano : I'm Master Skywalker's Padawan. The name's Ahsoka Tano.

Captain Rex : Sir, I thought you said you'd never have a Padawan.

Anakin Skywalker : There's been a mix-up. The youngling isn't with me.

Ahsoka Tano : Stop calling me that! You're stuck with me, Skyguy.

Anakin Skywalker : [ Rex bursts out laughing ] What did you just call me? Don't get snippy with me, little one. You know, I don't even think you're old enough to be a Padawan.

Ahsoka Tano : Well maybe I'm not, but Master Yoda thinks I am...

Which makes me think that Ahsoka, with her 14 years, was on the young side for a Padawan.

Any direct evidence for Sense? Curious about trying to build him as a Knight level pc

How could there be direct evidence for Sense? It's invisible. It just seems obvious if they're deflecting the kind of barrage they handled in the first few minutes of the film, it wasn't just a rank of Reflect... all just MHO of course.

"I'm one with the force the force is with me" -Chirrut Imwe

Any direct evidence for Sense? Curious about trying to build him as a Knight level pc

How could there be direct evidence for Sense? It's invisible. It just seems obvious if they're deflecting the kind of barrage they handled in the first few minutes of the film, it wasn't just a rank of Reflect... all just MHO of course.

Enhance leap maxed out; Sense defense committed and turned on, and possibly offence commit as well as tossing the odd B1...which means at least FR2.

Plus, I think it doesn't do the SW universe justice to try and define the characters by only what we see them directly do. There are many abilities simply implied by their position: fixing the hyperdrive (mechanics), finding a place to take the queen (politics, astrogation), never mind many years of intensive training.

OTOH, characters can also do a lot of stuff with just decent starting stats, instead of needing hundreds of XP in skills and talents to do it. An Obiwan padawan with 3 INT is going to do okay on some mechanics, astrogation, knowledges, etc. It doesn't really seem like he's pulling a triumph on any of those things, you know.

The biggest hurdle to saying a knight level character is a fully trained Jedi is probably the Reflect and Parry ranks it takes to be close to how the Jedi in the movies and shows behave. They flat out step in front of their allies to deflect incoming fire back at the enemies with high precision while wearing robes, and even Padawans are capable of doing this. You'd pretty much need several trees worth of lightsaber training to be that good.

But they don't always reflect the dmage back, often they just block the bolt and send it somehwere else. I think at least some of those deflections can be cleverly narrated misses by the shooters. It makes more sense given the game rules on parry and reflect. But they sure do have quite some parry/reflects ranks (more reflect probably) and a high strain. (To be honest we mostly see the better combat trained padawans and jedi, remember how many jedi failed their reflects on Geonosis)

What you are saying is true, but its also heavily reliant on goodwill and skill rather than mechanics. You can describe the results you call out in the narrative. This is, after all, a narrative system, but that also requires both the player and game-master be creative, skilled, and eloquent. 36 years of RPG gaming tells me that is not always the case. Some people can be literal minded or read more into titles / descriptors than is really correct. Not everyone has the gifts of nuance an prosy narrative. My experience with this game is that its runs better when you make the kinds of assumptions you describe - and when everyone is well-rested and well-caffeinated. It takes mental energy to do this system justice. You have to be "on the jazz."

That said, I'm not enthused about how parry and reflect are priced / positioned / purchased. The mechanics work quite well , especially if you have minions attack in groups, but you do need to be deep into 2+ lightsaber to get consistent movie results with parry and reflect (and to have sufficient strain). That is a very long road and very great many experience to walk down even before you factor purchasing force powers into the mix. And, unless you take Niman as one of those specs, those two force trees won't give you a force rating that can get consistent force power results. This may be balanced with non FAD careers and specs, but 2 saber specs and a modest array of force powers and skills will still cost you 700+ points.

In theory, you could take sage or seer and a saber spec to get to FR 3 (4 if the spec is Niman), but your parry-reflect will be weak enough that you will be reliant on your game-master being a good egg for it to work. Makashi and Shi-Cho will get you to parry 4 or 5 (starting to be effective), but have no reflect! You therefore often end up needing three specs to simulate a mid-range "Jedi." That can run 1000+ points. I'm not talking about a min-maxed monster. I'm talking about a Jedi with 4 attributes at 3, Lightsaber 3, Cool-Discipline-Vigilance 3, FR 3-4, some mid-range force powers, and parry and reflect at 5.

That's a huge amount of experience. Unless you play regularly over a not insignificant amount of time, you won't get there. Non-saber-monkeys will reach peak effectiveness much sooner, especially if they aren't force users. If parry and reflect weren't ranked (I admit I don't know how to change that without introducing unintended negative consequences) then most Jedi Knight level characters could be made with a single saber spec and a force spec. Aside from stacking parry and reflect, I would seldom consider buying into two saber specs. But, as the system currently stands, I generally feel I need two in order to consistently use parry and reflect during play.

Its not a power-gamer thing, its a consistent enough to be competent thing. Yes, lots of padawans died on Geonosis and the protagonists are special. But, who wants to play the guy who died in the arena? People want to play the protagonists? That doesn't mean they have to be invincible, but they do have to be the protagonists of their own story.

Niman disciple (from consular) and sentry (from sentinel) is the shortest path to a well rounded jedi. Just 2 specs will get you force rating 3, at least 5 ranks of reflect, 2 dedications, reflect improved, saber throw, and a whole bunch of nifty force talents. Granted it's the only way I know of to do that but it is a way for jedi characters to reach peak effectiveness about the same time as everyone else. With move, enhance, sense, and maybe influence, you can do just about everything a movie protagonist jedi can do.

Niman disciple (from consular) and sentry (from sentinel) is the shortest path to a well rounded jedi. Just 2 specs will get you force rating 3, at least 5 ranks of reflect, 2 dedications, reflect improved, saber throw, and a whole bunch of nifty force talents. Granted it's the only way I know of to do that but it is a way for jedi characters to reach peak effectiveness about the same time as everyone else. With move, enhance, sense, and maybe influence, you can do just about everything a movie protagonist jedi can do.

Out of interest, how much XP would that cost, including the Force Powers you'd suggest buying?

Uhm isn't that build too combat centric? I always had the impression than to properly emulate a jedi you needed a ligthsaber spec and a non-lightsaber spec, to get both the FR and some useful non combat talents.

Niman+Sentry however is a very good way to build a combat centered jedi or a jedi in the middle fo the clone wars.

It really does seem like "high level" is a lot higher in Force and Destiny than it is in EotE and AoR. There's no real way around the fact that critical stuff like defence dice and parry and reflect ranks are pretty thin on the ground, meaning that you need a *lot* of talents to make full use of your Lightsaber. I kinda feel like the formula for calculating how much your parry and reflect talents reduce incoming damage should have been something like Ranks + Lightsaber Skill, rather than Ranks +2. Perhaps we'll see some kind of "Mastery" talent for Parry and Reflect if FFG ever publishes something analogous to D&D epic levels.

All that said, Jedi (and Sith, for that matter) are the most elite fighters in the setting and they train constantly throughout their lives, so it makes sense for them to need more talents/trees to reach their potential.

Just hope your Storytellers are kind enough with the XP...

Niman disciple (from consular) and sentry (from sentinel) is the shortest path to a well rounded jedi. Just 2 specs will get you force rating 3, at least 5 ranks of reflect, 2 dedications, reflect improved, saber throw, and a whole bunch of nifty force talents. Granted it's the only way I know of to do that but it is a way for jedi characters to reach peak effectiveness about the same time as everyone else. With move, enhance, sense, and maybe influence, you can do just about everything a movie protagonist jedi can do.

I rec'd Endless Vigil yesterday and only discovered Sentry last night on my first read through. Its a great spec. This thread was still fresh in my mind and the Niman-Senty combo immediately struck me as a potential solution to the "problem" we are discussing for the reasons you summarize. The combo does allow for an effective two spec Jedi who can do movie fu and I'll probably try one. My only criticism would be that it is the only way to reach peak effectiveness "on schedule" with non-Jedi characters, and only came to exist after the core books were produced. Its not the end of the world, but it does present a hard choice: slow-burn variety vs. a single efficient path. I still really like the game, but it is an occasional point of frustration.

Uhm isn't that build too combat centric? I always had the impression than to properly emulate a jedi you needed a ligthsaber spec and a non-lightsaber spec, to get both the FR and some useful non combat talents.

Niman+Sentry however is a very good way to build a combat centered jedi or a jedi in the middle fo the clone wars.

Too combat centric is purely a matter of subjective preference. The only reason non-saber specs are absolutely essential is bumping your force rating to drive powers. They do flesh out a character and give you more breadth, but a few non-combat skills and a well-developed personality can also make for an interesting character who has something to contribute outside of combat . The source material that inspires people to play Jedi showcases iconic lightsaber-fu and ninja-flip-out leaping. I don't think there is anything wrong with players aspiring to a character who can emulate that. The system does emulate that, but most roads to that is 1,000+ experience. I would suggest all roads should require no more than two (full specs).

Uhm isn't that build too combat centric? I always had the impression than to properly emulate a jedi you needed a ligthsaber spec and a non-lightsaber spec, to get both the FR and some useful non combat talents.

Niman+Sentry however is a very good way to build a combat centered jedi or a jedi in the middle fo the clone wars.

Too combat centric is purely a matter of subjective preference. The only reason non-saber specs are absolutely essential is bumping your force rating to drive powers. They do flesh out a character and give you more breadth, but a few non-combat skills and a well-developed personality can also make for an interesting character who has something to contribute outside of combat . The source material that inspires people to play Jedi showcases iconic lightsaber-fu and ninja-flip-out leaping. I don't think there is anything wrong with players aspiring to a character who can emulate that. The system does emulate that, but most roads to that is 1,000+ experience. I would suggest all roads should require no more than two (full specs).

I agree about that no more than 2 specs to fully flesh a character, but then Niman+sentry becomes the only road, because every other Lightsaber spec is hurt by the lack of force rating. Every jedi would end up looking the same.

Uhm isn't that build too combat centric? I always had the impression than to properly emulate a jedi you needed a ligthsaber spec and a non-lightsaber spec, to get both the FR and some useful non combat talents.

Niman+Sentry however is a very good way to build a combat centered jedi or a jedi in the middle fo the clone wars.

Too combat centric is purely a matter of subjective preference. The only reason non-saber specs are absolutely essential is bumping your force rating to drive powers. They do flesh out a character and give you more breadth, but a few non-combat skills and a well-developed personality can also make for an interesting character who has something to contribute outside of combat . The source material that inspires people to play Jedi showcases iconic lightsaber-fu and ninja-flip-out leaping. I don't think there is anything wrong with players aspiring to a character who can emulate that. The system does emulate that, but most roads to that is 1,000+ experience. I would suggest all roads should require no more than two (full specs).

I agree about that no more than 2 specs to fully flesh a character, but then Niman+sentry becomes the only road, because every other Lightsaber spec is hurt by the lack of force rating. Every jedi would end up looking the same.

We agree on all points.

Niman disciple (from consular) and sentry (from sentinel) is the shortest path to a well rounded jedi. Just 2 specs will get you force rating 3, at least 5 ranks of reflect, 2 dedications, reflect improved, saber throw, and a whole bunch of nifty force talents. Granted it's the only way I know of to do that but it is a way for jedi characters to reach peak effectiveness about the same time as everyone else. With move, enhance, sense, and maybe influence, you can do just about everything a movie protagonist jedi can do.

Out of interest, how much XP would that cost, including the Force Powers you'd suggest buying?

Uhm isn't that build too combat centric? I always had the impression than to properly emulate a jedi you needed a ligthsaber spec and a non-lightsaber spec, to get both the FR and some useful non combat talents.

Niman+Sentry however is a very good way to build a combat centered jedi or a jedi in the middle fo the clone wars.

I used OggDude's characater generator to put together an example build . Including force powers and skills he clocked in at 915 earned xp (a bit more than I was expecting).

I went Pantoran for the species (so I could start with 2 ranks each in discipline, leadership, and negotiation). I'm not sure that saved me anything over human because although I had 10 morality xp left over, I spent that on a rank of ranged light which I could have gotten for free with a human. I might have end up spending more xp because I went pantoran. But no biggy.

And Niman Disciple has talents good for negotiation etc. and sentry has talents good for sneaking. As a third spec I'd recommend Force Sensitive Emergent from AOR to get another dedication, another force rating, force of will, 2 toughened, 2 grit, 2 indistinguishable, 2 sleight of mind (bringing the total to 4) , 2 uncanny senses, 2 uncanny reactions (bringing the total to 4), I'd recommend putting the dedication into willpower to bring it to 6, and with force of will you can use willpower in place of another attribute once per session, crazy useful for crafting, etc. touch of fate is useful. And then I'd also recommend getting "steely nerves" as a scar talent (rules on the last 2 pages of forged in battle, the AoR soldier book) which would let you ignore the effect of critical injuries on will power and presence.

Niman disciple (from consular) and sentry (from sentinel) is the shortest path to a well rounded jedi. Just 2 specs will get you force rating 3, at least 5 ranks of reflect, 2 dedications, reflect improved, saber throw, and a whole bunch of nifty force talents. Granted it's the only way I know of to do that but it is a way for jedi characters to reach peak effectiveness about the same time as everyone else. With move, enhance, sense, and maybe influence, you can do just about everything a movie protagonist jedi can do.

I rec'd Endless Vigil yesterday and only discovered Sentry last night on my first read through. Its a great spec. This thread was still fresh in my mind and the Niman-Senty combo immediately struck me as a potential solution to the "problem" we are discussing for the reasons you summarize. The combo does allow for an effective two spec Jedi who can do movie fu and I'll probably try one. My only criticism would be that it is the only way to reach peak effectiveness "on schedule" with non-Jedi characters, and only came to exist after the core books were produced. Its not the end of the world, but it does present a hard choice: slow-burn variety vs. a single efficient path. I still really like the game, but it is an occasional point of frustration.

actually you have 2 slightly different progression paths: you could go Sentinel:Sentry cross spec'd to Niman Disciple or Consular:Niman-Disciple cross spec'd to Sentry. Both paths work well and have very different early game flavor.

Really useful discussion here.

Elias, quick question: did you enter all the descriptions of the talents and force powers into the OggDude generator by hand, or is there an easy way to put them in all at once? (Like, is there a zip file with the edited talent and power tree files somewhere one the web?)

I enter the descriptions by hand as I need ones I haven't entered yet. I don't know if there is a faster way

I had a question about the Niman/Sentry build... couldn't you achieve a similarly well-rounded Jedi by using the Guardian's Protector spec instead of Sentry? Protector seems like a solid combat spec with both a Force Rating and a Dedication, and you'd end up with parry 6 reflect 6. No Lightsaber Throw, but throwing lightsabers isn't flavorful for a lot of Jedi anyway.

I had a question about the Niman/Sentry build... couldn't you achieve a similarly well-rounded Jedi by using the Guardian's Protector spec instead of Sentry? Protector seems like a solid combat spec with both a Force Rating and a Dedication, and you'd end up with parry 6 reflect 6. No Lightsaber Throw, but throwing lightsabers isn't flavorful for a lot of Jedi anyway.

As far as I know, soresu defender, siendo expert, and sentry are the only spec with reflect improved, being able to bounce blaster bolts back at a shooter is kind of essential to "protagonist jedi" in my opinion, but if it doesn't matter to you then protector is a very competitive choice

As far as I know, soresu defender, siendo expert, and sentry are the only spec with reflect improved, being able to bounce blaster bolts back at a shooter is kind of essential to "protagonist jedi" in my opinion, but if it doesn't matter to you then protector is a very competitive choice

I understand what you're driving at, but I'm perfectly comfortable using the narrative and the wounds caused by strain on minion groups to represent reflected blaster bolts. The precision provided by Improved Reflect represents a higher degree of skill in that paradigm, but I do wish that that particular talent weren't quite so rare.

As far as I know, soresu defender, siendo expert, and sentry are the only spec with reflect improved, being able to bounce blaster bolts back at a shooter is kind of essential to "protagonist jedi" in my opinion, but if it doesn't matter to you then protector is a very competitive choice

I understand what you're driving at, but I'm perfectly comfortable using the narrative and the wounds caused by strain on minion groups to represent reflected blaster bolts. The precision provided by Improved Reflect represents a higher degree of skill in that paradigm, but I do wish that that particular talent weren't quite so rare.

I have a tendency to interpret things very literally (for which I have a excuse from my doctor in the form of a diagnosis of a mild case [i.e. high functioning] of asperger syndrome, some meds I take help me partially compensate socially)

The point is minion strain -> wounds seems like a big stretch to me, a bigger one than I am personally willing to take, but if you're OK with it, more power to you.

I have a tendency to interpret things very literally (for which I have a excuse from my doctor in the form of a diagnosis of a mild case [i.e. high functioning] of asperger syndrome, some meds I take help me partially compensate socially)

They have meds for that? I had no idea….

I guess I do need to go in to my doctor to get the official diagnosis, and see if maybe this is something that I should have addressed years ago….

The point is minion strain -> wounds seems like a big stretch to me, a bigger one than I am personally willing to take, but if you're OK with it, more power to you.

Well, Minions don’t have a Strain Threshold. So, they have to take Strain as Wounds. Right?

I mean, that’s RAW. Right?