In the Legendsverse, yes - but they weren't "in ROTJ" though.

1) as others have said A-wing was top 4 at worlds.

2)at the last regional I was at there was 3bxz, Biggs and bombs, y-wing bombers, and Biggs with arcs in the top 16 all the way up to top table.. There have been similar resurgences in other regional results I have seen

3) the next wave is adding a lot of tools that actually might help out some of these very ships you're discussing.

A) raging A-wings can be a thing due to inspired recruits

B) there is a new tie only card that may help tie fighters

C) we Just got a new falcon ffs

All in all, I see this as extremely alarmist and frankly wrong. Yes, in any game certain ships go out of style and are left by the way side. But, the developers of this one have shown that they WILL fix ships ala defenders.

Biggs has been, and always shall be, the best X-wing (barring some ridiculous new pilot). The thing with x-wings is that if you're a better pilot than you're opponent you'll win, but if you're only their equal, you'll lose, because there's no margin for error.

So far, the only T-65 fix - the Integrated Astromech - has buffed the T-70 just as much, thereby keeping the T-65 behind the power curve.

Its statistically unimportant to see what's in the top 2, 4, 8, or 16 alone. This only tells you what the top players are winning with, not what is broken for an average Joe. The two useful data points for judging whether a ship is 'competitive' are:

1. The total number of match wins involving a ship (thus giving a representation of the 'unskilled' player group), and its win-loss ratio.

2. The total number of top 16 players at regionals - worlds (thus giving a representation of the 'skilled' player group), and its win-loss ratio.

Combining these gives you useful information about a ship. For instance, Echo is a great Phantom pilot, but incredibly difficult to fly well. Because of this, you'd expect to see average Joes losing more games than winning, and Elite players winning at a higher rate, due to that learning curve.

Taking the T-65, you don't see either skilled or unskilled players (generally) having a great win streak. There are the odd champions for the cause, and good for them, but they are irrelevant when considering the future of the game as they are outliers.

Overall, I believe FFG won't reboot the game, but it might consider removing certain cards from tournament play. Note that they've essentially already done this with deadeye by making it small ship only. Notables include:

Zuckuss

Palpatine

Zuckuss

Palpatine

Zuckuss

Palpatine

You get the idea. These two cards are absurdly under-costed, as we know. Not only that, but their effects are neither passive nor gentle. Their abilities are based on perfect fore-knowledge, letting you use them perfectly, every single time. by removing these two cards from the game - the Scum and Imperial list pillars respectively - the Rebellion can regain its ground.

In actual fact, the T-65 x-wing has some of the best pilot abilities in the game. Wedge Antilles and Luke in particular. Their frame is garbage, but could you imagine Wedge's ability on a Falcon, or Luke's on an A-wing? Absurdly powerful.

Zuckuss is strong only on 1 or 2 particular builds. Put him on normal ships, like G1A, he is effective, but certainly absolutely NOT overpowered. And that is not Zuckuss'fail but the fact that suddenly stress is no longer that negative for certain ships. Partly this is probably even dial creep (just look at the Uwing, that dial is insane).

And dial creep even moreso makes life difficult for the generalists T65 and Kihraxz.

I always find it funny that people say that turrets in later waves destroyed the dog fighting. PEOPLE, the MF AND EU came out in the same box in wave two. Next, the conditions arguement, oh lordie, my sweet summer child. What do you think agent kallus and critical hit cards are? Third, someone that doesn't net list will always have their list mocked and said it was just their flying/dice/match ups that made them able to get where they were in the cut. Truly a back handed complement.

Take the rose colored glasses off and get off my lawn.

...but is that merely a corner case - an example of superb flying and practice overcoming the shortcomings of the ships?

...so when someone does well with a T-65, a TIE/ln, the original Falcons, A-Wings, B-Wings, Z-95, TIE Interceptors or - God forbid - the Kihraxz, they're handwaved as a one off, as an exception, rather than the norm.

So much this! Look at the Tie Defender. Oh, they suck! They are the worst! Biophysical does really really well with them. Oh, that's an "outlier". It's not the norm. Or..."no one else can do it. He's just the "Defender-whisperer". Then, before the fix, other people start doing well at Regionals with them in their list.

Or you look at Kinetic Operator who always pulls out unorthodox lists and does well. I hear: Well, no one else can do the same thing with that list. So...no one bothers to try.

*reads the OP....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

The only thing wrong with this game is no freaking GUNBOAT yet. And then that 2 attack-dial-slightly-better-than-a-Y-wing-ship comes out you will all see the GUNBOAT META SUPREME!

Seriously, I can't stand these threads. The wave one/two ships will always have to play catch-up and be upgraded because, hey, they were the first designed, they couldn't take into account the changes this game would have several years down the road.

Speaking as a 'new guy' (having started last Christmas), X-Wing isn't a complicated game.

Same! I think I knew what most of the commonly used cards did within a month of picking up the game. This is primarily due to a welcoming and helpful community, as well as the many excellent podcasts. I don't have much of a miniatures gaming background, but even still I've been surprised by how little errata actually is in the FAQ. Most of it contains clarifications, many of which just reflect certain rules of thumb (who "you" is, what "assign" means). The timing chart is just another case of clarification, and to make certain card text more clear in the future.

So with the OT firmly behind us and Disney releasing new movies every year I think it is safe to say that those cinematic battles from Episodes IV through VI are gone.

Except that every second movie will be set in the OT period.

Okay so short of a Disney Special Edition can you show me a scene with an U-wing or a TIE Striker in Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, or Return of the Jedi? Not eve G. Lucas put them in the OT.

The point is X-wing and the expansion wave business model is very vulnerable to accretion. Actually that is probably putting it in the wrong term. Accretion is more of a necessity than a liability but in being such a necessity it brings liabilities of its own. FFG has to continuously add new stuff on top of the old stuff and just let the old stuff get buried into oblivion.

Soooo... you don't want new ships. Do you just want rereleases of all the old ships? Do you want FFG to just stop making ships? Because both of these decisions would absolutely kill the growth of the game. Star Wars isn't just the OT movies anymore, hasn't been for a long time. There's plenty of people who want to see stuff from Episode VII-IX, the anthology films, and *gasp* even the prequels.

I still see x-wings every now and again but only named pilots - I think this is the larger issue with the meta right now. Check out the worlds top 16. The ratio named/generic pilots was heavily skewed towards named. The top table was Dengar/Manaroo v. Corran/Miranda for example.

I AM HAPPY THAT I AM HAPPY!

LAUGHING ACTUALLY!

May you never be bothered by the Me-taa-Yar-Blers evers againes... daa-at glor-eeeeeeeeeeee!

Xwings were in top 4 of North American championship this year.

Please don't use my performance to argue that t65 aren't gimpy ships. That is ridiculous.

...but is that merely a corner case - an example of superb flying and practice overcoming the shortcomings of the ships?

...so when someone does well with a T-65, a TIE/ln, the original Falcons, A-Wings, B-Wings, Z-95, TIE Interceptors or - God forbid - the Kihraxz, they're handwaved as a one off, as an exception, rather than the norm.

So much this! Look at the Tie Defender. Oh, they suck! They are the worst! Biophysical does really really well with them. Oh, that's an "outlier". It's not the norm. Or..."no one else can do it. He's just the "Defender-whisperer". Then, before the fix, other people start doing well at Regionals with them in their list.

Or you look at Kinetic Operator who always pulls out unorthodox lists and does well. I hear: Well, no one else can do the same thing with that list. So...no one bothers to try.

an, but from the complaints arose imp vets

But thats maybe a false causation

Still, fun to believe such negative reactions can result in positive additions to the game

Regardless of how good or bad X ship is, it can be quite nice to just get more options for them

Fingers crossed for scum aces!

Reseting for xwing 2.0 Would be a Big mistake at this point. The game is super, super good right now. A big variety of builds across multiple paltforms are viable. The level of complexion stemming from a growing number of upgrades is not at all critical. It's all really good right now and problems should just be dealt with through erattta and faqs. In t Her words; All is good.

Your are simply wrong and did not paid enough attention to the video. X-Wing TMG brings constant iteration to old content, meaning that the developers do not follow the path of accretion. You just sound salty and looking for reasons to justify it. Not worth even discussion to be honest.

So with the OT firmly behind us and Disney releasing new movies every year I think it is safe to say that those cinematic battles from Episodes IV through VI are gone.

Except that every second movie will be set in the OT period.

Okay so short of a Disney Special Edition can you show me a scene with an U-wing or a TIE Striker in Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, or Return of the Jedi? Not eve G. Lucas put them in the OT.

No, but I've seen scenes with X-wings and Y-wings in Rogue One trailers, I guarantee that at least the X-wing will get a Rogue One rererelease, if it isn't SWX58 we will get in within a year, like the HotR.

I would like re-releases every third wave or so... As card packs! It would keep ships fresh and freshen up some stinkers. The T-65, Kfighter, and Firespray all need a new treatment.

The mass of "competitively useful" cards is fairly small and expensive to collect as a new player. Again, card packs could help.

Xwings were in top 4 of North American championship this year.

Please don't use my performance to argue that t65 aren't gimpy ships. That is ridiculous.

Oh absolutely, not my intention. Just disputing the statement that "no xwings made top 4 at nationals"

I agree that xwings could use a fix, but I dislike when people don't recognize the fact that they have seen competitive play.

BBBXZ just made the final match in the Maryland regionals. Most people wont put in the effort to master a list. They want to play it three times, then take it to tournaments and get top8. That is why Dengaroo and Palp Fenders are so popular. Its a plug and play list you dont need to spend time practicing to put in a good showing. Good piloting separates the men from the boys, but a gun in a childs hand can still kill.

The T-65, as it is now, is justs overcosted nowadays. A 2pt adjustment would do wonders for the ship.

I would also recommend m9g8 Tarn

really not bad; holds his own against x7s with Miranda and Biggs

TLTs with m9g8 on them are really accurate

The trouble with this is that it's actually quite wrong. FFG's business model isn't to bury old ships under new ships, it's actually to release new ships that are in most cases underpowered, while older ships are recycled up from obscurity by upgrades/titles.

As /x7 proves we're only one upgrade card away from a wall-to-wall T-65 dominated metagame and a dozen threads about how Wedge is broken and needs to be nerfed.

I would also recommend m9g8 Tarn

really not bad; holds his own against x7s with Miranda and Biggs

TLTs with m9g8 on them are really accurate

I just flew a rookie with M9G8 along with Poe and Snap vs Dash and a Cassian proxy. Basically acted like a cheaper Biggs. Dash did not want that guy TL-ing him and making dash reroll a dice everytime. By the time Dash killed the Rookie, I had Cassian down to just hull left. Killed Cassian then it was Dash vs two regening T70s. Not a good outcome for him. Tarn woulda been awesome in this match. Giving PS9 Poe a reroll, then TL Dash and making him reroll.

The problem with T-65s or any other ship in X-wing is the fixation on competitive gaming; i.e., the problem is with the players, not with the game. I have played in the tournament environment, and while I thought the community was awesome, the game simply wasn't as fun in that format; theme and fluff take a back seat to WINNING in a competitive game.

This is not to say that tournaments or competition are bad, but rather that I think it is bad for the game to see them as the only valid approach to the game. Even the competitive player may find some useful maneuvering practice as well as just FUN in playing out thematic and/or narratively based missions. If the two worlds of X-wing can be separated and we can let each run according to its own rules, then we can appreciate in the casual side that we have such wide variety to pick from. If we want to play a classic battle of T-65s against a swarm of TIEs, then we set it up and play. We pick the kind of fight we want before choosing squad lists, and then play for the simple joy of Star Wars on the tabletop.

When we look ahead to the tournaments, then we change focus: craft a carefully designed, high synergy and efficient 100 point list and practice with it to learn the nuances, then do the best we can at whatever tourney we might play in. The above noted casual games may have revealed some interesting configuration ideas that may have never occurred to us in a purely competitive mindset, yet ultimately became incredibly and shockingly effective, such that as a result of gaming for fun, we can show up to tourneys with effective, powerful lists that the meta has never heard of.

Not every ship needs a place in competitive play if we can accept that there are formats for this game other than competition. What falls flat on the table at Worlds can be very fun at home, and YES, it can also WIN in scenarios at home. In casual games, the hyper-efficient lists take a back seat to a fun game experience for all parties, after all,

My opinion:

1. X-wing 2.0 is utterly unnecessary.

2. X-wing is a game of both competitive and casual play; the same playstyles and lists should not be used in both arenas, though.

3. If you are not enjoying the game as the meta is currently shaping it, you should either a.) design new, non-meta lists that you'll enjoy flying, or b.) focus more on casual games and build your local community's enjoyment of casual and epic play. In other words, instead of letting the meta frustrate you, play what you enjoy and let the meta go f*** itself.

One of my two big FLGSs just stopped stocking X-Wing and is no longer reserving tables for its play one day a week. =(

I still have the other FLGS, which recently doubled its number of tables, so not all is lost. It's pretty shocking, but this area never had Armada take root - as in I never saw anyone playing it ever. That has to say something about the city's population, not just the games, right?

Maybe an X-Wing 2.0 with a simplified timing scheme and revised balance can inject new life and bring new players to the game.

One of my two big FLGSs just stopped stocking X-Wing and is no longer reserving tables for its play one day a week. =(

Just had something similar happen at my LGS. No more stocking X-Wing merch. I mean it's never been the biggest thing here, but they always had a small stock until a couple months ago.