Argh! Can't wait to add the Pelta to my Rebs- I can even see a place for the Assault version, as I can see using it as a jousting version of the broadsiding Gladiator, probably paired with my Neb-B and Sato.

Anyone notice no mention of Q4. Should lay that to rest, right?

I think this wave will most likely be released in January or February, based off when it was updated as being on the boat and that I don't really see this coming out during Christmas. But hey if I'm wrong all the better.

So Saito is the new Ackbar, and Entrapment Formation prominently features star destroyers. When do imperials get these goodies? I WONDER?

It would make sense to include them in the ship that Admiral Piet comes with, a certain very large ship that is still a matter of debate. Well that or it will come with some ship with Thrawn, actually it might be interesting to see if they make another Corellian Conflict kind of box that includes Thrawn and a Chimera title for the ISD that gives it the new upgrade.

Three people mentioned the SSD thread, so it is called back to the first page.

(Besides, FFG is holding back the FAQ, CC & wave 5 articles as they compete the SSD & Epic scale rules.

The Epic Scale rules are a required part of CC, and the SSD will be the Empire's Fleet Command upgrade icon ship. What else do you think SWM20 is.)

You heard it here first!

Yep, still pushing this theory! And getting backing from Shields to Maximum & Entrapment Formation, BOTH of which feature the SSD in their art. I hear you all thinking, "we see the Corellian Gunship in one of the card arts, and we dont have that", but that is one card not two. Two different cards of the same upgrade type in the same expansion, an upgrade that would fit, thematically on the SSD!

Hm, I wonder why we are having these delays?!?!

"Caugh-SSD-caugh"

Scout frigate with spinal armament, with OE, for 80 something points...could be worth it for up to 5 rerollable black dice a turn at red range....or 10 rerollable black dice at close range (with CF).

You could also put APT or ACM on there for some gross long range black crit shenanigans.

• MC30c Scout Frigate - MC30c (69) - Ordnance Experts (4) - Assault Proton Torpedoes (5) - Admonition (8) • Total : 86

I consider that the baseline to build from.

Since you're firing sooner, there's a good argument that ACM's will do a lot more damage over time, especially if you can start double arcing from turn two...

Scout frigate with spinal armament, with OE, for 80 something points...could be worth it for up to 5 rerollable black dice a turn at red range....or 10 rerollable black dice at close range (with CF).

You could also put APT or ACM on there for some gross long range black crit shenanigans.

• MC30c Scout Frigate - MC30c (69) - Ordnance Experts (4) - Assault Proton Torpedoes (5) - Admonition (8) • Total : 86

I consider that the baseline to build from.

Since you're firing sooner, there's a good argument that ACM's will do a lot more damage over time, especially if you can start double arcing from turn two...

By the same account, APTs will get flipped damage on them sooner that might really hurt them.

Anyone notice no mention of Q4. Should lay that to rest, right?

I think this wave will most likely be released in January or February, based off when it was updated as being on the boat and that I don't really see this coming out during Christmas. But hey if I'm wrong all the better.

So Saito is the new Ackbar, and Entrapment Formation prominently features star destroyers. When do imperials get these goodies? I WONDER?

It would make sense to include them in the ship that Admiral Piet comes with, a certain very large ship that is still a matter of debate. Well that or it will come with some ship with Thrawn, actually it might be interesting to see if they make another Corellian Conflict kind of box that includes Thrawn and a Chimera title for the ISD that gives it the new upgrade.

Three people mentioned the SSD thread, so it is called back to the first page.

(Besides, FFG is holding back the FAQ, CC & wave 5 articles as they compete the SSD & Epic scale rules.

The Epic Scale rules are a required part of CC, and the SSD will be the Empire's Fleet Command upgrade icon ship. What else do you think SWM20 is.)

You heard it here first!

Yep, still pushing this theory! And getting backing from Shields to Maximum & Entrapment Formation, BOTH of which feature the SSD in their art. I hear you all thinking, "we see the Corellian Gunship in one of the card arts, and we dont have that", but that is one card not two. Two different cards of the same upgrade type in the same expansion, an upgrade that would fit, thematically on the SSD!

Hm, I wonder why we are having these delays?!?!

"Caugh-SSD-caugh"

Well, and not to be doing too much naysaying, but the art on Entrapment formation is from the LCG card "Moon Blockade".

To be fair though, that is the objective set that has Executor in it.

By the same account, APTs will get flipped damage on them sooner that might really hurt them.

The key word there is might - without Dodonna your chances of drawing a really good card are so-so. Whereas ACM's - if triggered repetitively - will guarantee damage and negate the redirect token completely. I didn't use them much as a rebel as my MC30's would typically get only one or two ACM shots off, which isn't really enough to consistently get damage through. APT's are better there.

But when you get three or more ACM triggerings on one hull zone (typically negating side shields), the damage really starts to pile up. It's why ACM's were the default loadout for Demolisher (way, way back when that was a "thing"). Triple tap ACM's were not to be laughed at.

True, triple tap APT's will hurt too - but I'm going to try banking on an extra 2 unbraceable damage with each triggering.

I just realized the Assault Pelta and Sato have some good synergy with Ordinance Experts. With Concentrate Fire, you can roll 3 re-rollable black dice at red range (assuming you have squads in range of the target). That's comparable to Salvation in cost and damage and it's not unique. Maybe even more reliable if not as spikey.

Edit: oops..ordinance experts is not that kind of upgrade..well it still kind of works on an Mc30..but not as cheap.

Scout frigate with spinal armament, with OE, for 80 something points...could be worth it for up to 5 rerollable black dice a turn at red range....or 10 rerollable black dice at close range (with CF).

Might be because its 3:30am and im a bit befuddled but how are you getting 5 black dice at red range?

I just realized the Assault Pelta and Sato have some good synergy with Ordinance Experts. With Concentrate Fire, you can roll 3 re-rollable black dice at red range (assuming you have squads in range of the target). That's comparable to Salvation in cost and damage and it's not unique. Maybe even more reliable if not as spikey.

Edit: oops..ordinance experts is not that kind of upgrade..well it still kind of works on an Mc30..but not as cheap.

Scout frigate with spinal armament, with OE, for 80 something points...could be worth it for up to 5 rerollable black dice a turn at red range....or 10 rerollable black dice at close range (with CF).

Might be because its 3:30am and im a bit befuddled but how are you getting 5 black dice at red range?

Using Sato and Spinal Armaments - 2 red from the front arc, replaced with black. 2 reds from the side arc, replaced with black. Concentrate Fire used to add a black to one of the shots. That's 5.

Ok, might as well bury some Sato comments in this thread on Pheonix Home....

Things to consider:

Blue dice: Causing blue crits at long range could be interesting. The various blue upgrades (MS-1, NK-7, Overload Pulse, SW-7 and Ion Cannon batteries) each have their various levels of usefulness at red range.

The other thought is Leading Shots. With Spinal armaments on a Battle Cruiser or Enhanced Armaments/Slaved Turrets on an Assault Cruiser the ability to replace two red dice with a black and a blue for rerolls could be worth considering. Those red dice are fickle.

Black dice: It's been mentioned somewhere the importance of red dice range in winning tournaments. The ability to finish of a ship (on it's last hull point) at long range just before it limps out of the fight for good can be the difference between 1st and not 1st in a tourney.

Now imagine you can throw blacks at that range. With OE. And APT/ACM.

That rear arc of an MC30c Scout is starting to look just a little more interesting. As your frigate is beating it's hasty retreat, having made it's pass, with some careful positioning it could still be throwing 1 last black dice at it's burning target.

Come to think of it, Sato does make me take a second look at the Scout variant in general. Sato can turn it into a Torpedo Frigate for a turn (as we saw at Worlds, guaranteed accuracy with H9's), lets you throw blacks at a range that makes Insidious rage quit and gives you the opportunity to throw 6 (with CF) black dice at once from a side arc.

That's somewhat flexible. Let me know how it goes if you ever try it.

Why is it with each new wave there is a new upgrade. Fleet command Upgrades should be available for the Home One expansion. Concentrate All Fire Power, come on FFG

There have been two. One Imperial one last wave; we knew there would be a parallel Rebel one this wave.

And this is a good thing.

I do understand the feeling... feels like the Home One Command Cruiser could use some of these upgrades! Perhaps a title in the future?

Super Home One?

Just make a H1 title that can add Fleet Command upgrade to it. Just like the Phoenix Title does with Officer

I just realized the Assault Pelta and Sato have some good synergy with Ordinance Experts. With Concentrate Fire, you can roll 3 re-rollable black dice at red range (assuming you have squads in range of the target). That's comparable to Salvation in cost and damage and it's not unique. Maybe even more reliable if not as spikey.

Edit: oops..ordinance experts is not that kind of upgrade..well it still kind of works on an Mc30..but not as cheap.

Scout frigate with spinal armament, with OE, for 80 something points...could be worth it for up to 5 rerollable black dice a turn at red range....or 10 rerollable black dice at close range (with CF).

Might be because its 3:30am and im a bit befuddled but how are you getting 5 black dice at red range?

Using Sato and Spinal Armaments - 2 red from the front arc, replaced with black. 2 reds from the side arc, replaced with black. Concentrate Fire used to add a black to one of the shots. That's 5.

A CR90EA [CR90A (44) w/ Enhanced Armament (10)] can also yield 5 black dice at red range with a double arc and concentrate fire for only 54 points. Compared to the MC30, you're losing the re-rolls and the crit effects and, obviously, the close range black dice, but at a pretty healthy discount of 33 points (41 if the MC30 had a title). It also has a command value of 1, making it easier to time the concentrate fire command.

Compared to a TRC90, the CR90EA has a higher damage ceiling (10 vs. 8), a much lower floor (0 vs. 4), and comparable expected damage (~5 for each). Of course, you have also to weigh the benefit of saving evades for use as defense tokens. Also, both components come in the Core Set, so it's cheaper to field (in real world dollars) than a TRC90.

Why is it with each new wave there is a new upgrade. Fleet command Upgrades should be available for the Home One expansion. Concentrate All Fire Power, come on FFG

There have been two. One Imperial one last wave; we knew there would be a parallel Rebel one this wave.

And this is a good thing.

I do understand the feeling... feels like the Home One Command Cruiser could use some of these upgrades! Perhaps a title in the future?

Super Home One?

Just make a H1 title that can add Fleet Command upgrade to it. Just like the Phoenix Title does with Officer

and call the title "Actual Home One (the other was a fake)"

Why is it with each new wave there is a new upgrade. Fleet command Upgrades should be available for the Home One expansion. Concentrate All Fire Power, come on FFG

There have been two. One Imperial one last wave; we knew there would be a parallel Rebel one this wave.

And this is a good thing.

I do understand the feeling... feels like the Home One Command Cruiser could use some of these upgrades! Perhaps a title in the future?

Super Home One?

Just make a H1 title that can add Fleet Command upgrade to it. Just like the Phoenix Title does with Officer

I'd like to see a unique officer that does this, rather than a title, mostly for thematic reasons. The officer slot has enough of an opportunity cost that I could see it being an agonizing trade sometimes.

It could also solve the problem of getting the upgrade to imps.

Officer would mean that any ship could equip it. I don't think we want them on anything cheaper than a Pelta.

Officer would mean that any ship could equip it. I don't think we want them on anything cheaper than a Pelta.

Which means that they overcosted the Pelta and undercosted the upgrades.

Officer would mean that any ship could equip it. I don't think we want them on anything cheaper than a Pelta.

Which means that they overcosted the Pelta and undercosted the upgrades.

That's absolutely what they did.

Same thing for the Interdictor.

Officer would mean that any ship could equip it. I don't think we want them on anything cheaper than a Pelta.

Which means that they overcosted the Pelta and undercosted the upgrades.

That's absolutely what they did.

Same thing for the Interdictor.

I am really surprised too, because they achieve pretty good balance overall. I don't know why they would choose to play it that way for those two ships. Do you suppose it was purposeful or were they just playing is safe and went a little high on the points?

Ultimately, it takes away a lot of room for future upgrades, ships, etc.

Officer would mean that any ship could equip it. I don't think we want them on anything cheaper than a Pelta.

Which means that they overcosted the Pelta and undercosted the upgrades.

That's absolutely what they did.

Same thing for the Interdictor.

I'm always puzzled as to why exactly that kind of setup is a bad thing but there's always somebody upset about it for some reason.

Officer would mean that any ship could equip it. I don't think we want them on anything cheaper than a Pelta.

Couldn't this be addressed by making the officer expensive enough to offset that? I'd think 6 or 7 points for nothing but a fleet command slot (not even the upgrade) could be prohibitive enough.

I'm not committed to the officer upgrade, I just want to have the Home One title and a fleet command upgrade on the same ship without houseruling things.

Maybe there could be a unique support team upgrade that is restricted to mc80s that opens up the slot.

Officer would mean that any ship could equip it. I don't think we want them on anything cheaper than a Pelta.

Which means that they overcosted the Pelta and undercosted the upgrades.

That's absolutely what they did.

Same thing for the Interdictor.

I'm always puzzled as to why exactly that kind of setup is a bad thing but there's always somebody upset about it for some reason.

Correct, a quite rational reason. It limits the space for game development. It artificially limits the use of a ship to a specific role, although some might not see that as a negative.

I don't see why giving ships clear niches/roles is a negative. That's already the case with lots of other elements of the ship stat line for every other ship in the game (points cost, speed, maneuverability, dice batteries, flak, hull, shields, and upgrade slots), which all nudge each ship towards certain roles and away from others.

Ship cards don't have room for special rules. If FFG wants a ship to be run in a specific kind of role that utilizes special rules (with unique upgrades) that can't be covered with the currently-allowed more generic options, then the best it can really do is overcost the base ship with the unique upgrade slots and undercost its unique upgrades (effectively subsidizing the cost of the upgrades into the ship) so that most players realize "I would be stupid to run this ship without filling those (unique upgrade) slots."

I don't see too many people complaining that CR90s make for awful carriers or that Raiders are horrible at long-ranged harassment, but their stats condemn them to specific roles just as much as unique upgrade slots do for flotillas and Interdictors.

I don't see why giving ships clear niches/roles is a negative. That's already the case with lots of other elements of the ship stat line for every other ship in the game (points cost, speed, maneuverability, dice batteries, flak, hull, shields, and upgrade slots), which all nudge each ship towards certain roles and away from others.

Ship cards don't have room for special rules. If FFG wants a ship to be run in a specific kind of role that utilizes special rules (with unique upgrades) that can't be covered with the currently-allowed more generic options, then the best it can really do is overcost the base ship with the unique upgrade slots and undercost its unique upgrades (effectively subsidizing the cost of the upgrades into the ship) so that most players realize "I would be stupid to run this ship without filling those (unique upgrade) slots."

I don't see too many people complaining that CR90s make for awful carriers or that Raiders are horrible at long-ranged harassment, but their stats condemn them to specific roles just as much as unique upgrade slots do for flotillas and Interdictors.

Everything Snipa said and I would add that it helps prevent new ships from usurping the same roll a previous ship was filing. Helps keep everything relevant.

I don't see why giving ships clear niches/roles is a negative. That's already the case with lots of other elements of the ship stat line for every other ship in the game (points cost, speed, maneuverability, dice batteries, flak, hull, shields, and upgrade slots), which all nudge each ship towards certain roles and away from others.

Ship cards don't have room for special rules. If FFG wants a ship to be run in a specific kind of role that utilizes special rules (with unique upgrades) that can't be covered with the currently-allowed more generic options, then the best it can really do is overcost the base ship with the unique upgrade slots and undercost its unique upgrades (effectively subsidizing the cost of the upgrades into the ship) so that most players realize "I would be stupid to run this ship without filling those (unique upgrade) slots."

I don't see too many people complaining that CR90s make for awful carriers or that Raiders are horrible at long-ranged harassment, but their stats condemn them to specific roles just as much as unique upgrade slots do for flotillas and Interdictors.

Everything Snipa said and I would add that it helps prevent new ships from usurping the same roll a previous ship was filing. Helps keep everything relevant.

Agreed. Anyone played Mechwarrior Online? Mechs had variants and each variants could have had specific roles (long range support, indirect fire support, energy brawler, etc), but the developer decided to add a mechlab where you could fit your mech however you wanted. It ended up destroying diversity in mechs because you would just pick one, fit it as you wish, and the others were obsolete.

The game had a light mech with a gauss cannon made for sniping, but you could just pick another light mech, strip it down, put the gauss cannon, and the end result would be the same.

Officer would mean that any ship could equip it. I don't think we want them on anything cheaper than a Pelta.

Couldn't this be addressed by making the officer expensive enough to offset that? I'd think 6 or 7 points for nothing but a fleet command slot (not even the upgrade) could be prohibitive enough.

Not expensive enough. You'll have to make it expensive enough to disincentivize people like me who will be taking Peltas strictly as Fleet Command platforms and would use flotillas for them if I could.

Personally, if I can fit the Fleet Command upgrade that I really want into my MC30 swarm fleet, it will be in spite of the Pelta platform it requires, not because of it. I would pay a hefty premium to be able to just slap it on my admiral's lifeboat flotilla and park it across the board from the action. Like, probably 15 points.

We already have an overabundance of flotillas. No reason for FFG to push them even more. And that's why the FC slot is restricted to the Pelta, and part of its cost is baked into the ship.

The Flight Command upgrades apply for your whole fleet if you trigger them correct? Ie, if I discard a squad token, do all of the ships in my fleet benefit from the increased squadron speed if they activate squads?