jhaelen said:

Heh... I've done three games with eight investigators (solo), for the league. It reeeeeally sucks. But it did convince me how easy it is to break the game with those kinds of numbers. It takes a little adjusting because monster surges work so differently (and the gate limit is much smaller), but once you get your mind around those new threats, the game is cake.

Hm... Basically the trick is get two or three of the investigators to work at clue gathering/sealing/closing gates immediately. Then send everyone else on a shopping spree, get equipment for a supercharacter or two and maybe enough elder signs/KiY for two or three more gate sealings. Then send maybe two or three of the shopping group off to fight or seal. The rest should cluster in the Newspaper for potential retainers. Once the original two or three investigators finish their initial slow-down-the-game task. They should also go shopping or to the Newspaper. Investigators with retainers should just camp on the curiosity shop with cash, and buy the place out. If you can deplete the unique item deck enough you can get easy access to a number of obscene recyling combos. Game=broken. It's not hard to do with so many people.

Granted, if you're actually playing with seven other people, they'll probably find this strategy boring ::shrug:: I should probably just let them all go wander off and die anyways.

@Marianna/Chris

While there's no rule saying that you can't treat final battle victories as inferior victories, and it might seem that way thematically for Lovecraft fans, this is a boardgame, and the implicit object of games are to win (I suppose there is another school of thought that believes that "fun" is the purpose, we don't see eye to eye). Sure, you can make whatever you want out of a game you own ;') but, um, yeah... I play for wins first, and theme secondarily (after all, if this game were true to Lovecraft's vision, we shouldn't be winning at all). I enjoy the game as a thematic random puzzle solver ::shrug:: I realize other people play it differently.

And yes, killing Hastur by keeping the terror down is very unsatisfying. So is a game that stretches on forever because it takes so **** long to seal against him (which becomes even more difficult due to gate bursts). So, um, yeah :') I usually just discard him when I draw him these days.

I'm kindof shocked that you don't seal by gate frequency (assuming you weren't making a joke). You know you're just making the game hell for yourself, right? ::Laughter:: I would go insane if I were playing in a group with you. Granted, that would be thematic.

Avi_dreader said:

I wouldn't use the "no respawn" rule, just because it reduces the fun factor for whoever happens to get devoured. If I want to brutalize people I'll go to work. When I play a game, everyone is supposed to have fun.

I do agree, however, that there should be more penalty to being devoured in the midst of the game. We hadn't had anyone devoured in a while, then it happend lasts week when a Moon Beast ate Michael McGlen. When I reread the rules section, I ind of went "thats it?!" We decided to add an extra doom token to the track. I also like the idea of increasing the relative number of investigators. I'll add that to the penalty next time it happens. That will be particularly challenging because we almost always have four investigators, and the bump to 5 (with only four actually playing) with its attendant extra monsters being placed will be a real penalty.

Nghtflame7 said:

Hmmm... Added doom token for devouring. I think I'll just use that as a penalty, it seems like enough to discourage the behavior (and make it seem more disturbing when it happens accidentally). Maybe I'll also have it raise the terror track by one (even against Glaaki? Maybe).

I have nothing against gearing up for the final battle - it just means forfeiting a real victory (= seal/close victory) and settling for a draw (= victory in final battle) instead. Perhaps if the Epic Battle cards were used, both "wins" could count the same, but thematically I see the Ancient One destroying half of Arkham and killing thousands of people even if he is defeated in the final battle - hardly a victory in my eyes.

Looking at the mentioned strategies from such an angle reveals that Dam's are superior to those of Avi_dreader: the former help you win the game, while the latter help you not losing completely. I'm firmly in Dam's camp in this. If you give 2 points for a (close/seal) win, 1point for a (final battle) draw and 0 points for a loss and play, say, ten games, the difference in score should become obvious.

Of course, this is just my personal look into this, and if I saw the game as just a mechanical puzzle, I'd probably be on Avi_dreader's camp. Luckily, I see it as a Lovecraft-themed story, where the Ancient One awakening means the **** has hit the fan already.

-Villain

Got you. I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that Joe got +4 dice for spending a clue after failing the initail roll.

I see what you mean now - Chris

Dam said:

Avi_dreader said:

I'm afraid I really am that stupid :-)

Although unless really pressed I never try to close without sealing.

This means it is rare for anyone to jump through a gate without clues or an ES (unless things are going really badly).

So I don't make many close/don't seal decisions.

But yes I'm stupid enough to prioritise the easy gates to get to, or the gate that will get rid of the Cthonian etc.

I should probably do this anyway, but just not automatically seal when able to do so.

LIke I said, I'm pretty dumb.

- Chris

Villain said:

A "real victory," riiiiight :') I don't seem to remember this being in the manual. You do realize that this game is Lovecraft-Lite. Lovecraftesque at best? You're seriously going to tell me that a person can defeat a dhole or a shoggoth with a tommy gun? ::Shrug:: if you're only happy with "real" victories, then be happy with them, but personally, I trust the instruction manual to tell me what a real victory is or isn't ;') (it doesn't even score the victory types differently).

Avi_dreader said:

Lovecraft-themed, just as I said - far from really Lovecraftian, but then again, what game is?

And I find defeating a Shoggoth with a tommygun far more plausible than ever defeating Hastur with any weapons in the world.

And thanks for allowing me to be happy with the game like I want to - I really needed your permission for that. While I do return the favor and let you to be happy with any victories you can find in the game, I must say the manual is really a poor supporter of your argument - it is quite obvious the game didn't quite turn out the way it was designed and described in the manual (a desperate struggle against impossible odds), which is why all the expansions have raised the difficulty by significant amounts. The Epic Battle cards were introduced for exactly that purpose - to nullify the style of play that was against the original design (preparing for the final battle instead of trying to close/seal the gates).

I'm a long time wargamer and every once in a while we come across historical wargames that have apparent loopholes, allowing strategies that would've been impossible to execute in real life, but can easily break the game. Usually they are caused by simple oversights of the designers/playtesters; and the strategies that result from exploiting them are considered "against the spirit of the game" and rightfully abhorred by the wargaming community - no matter how competitive they are by nature.

I consider the strategy of waiting the Ancient One to awaken and beating him in the final battle against the spirit of Arkham Horror.

-Villain

Villain said:

Yeaaaaaah... Even if you only go for sealing victories, it's hardly "a desperate struggle against impossible odds." Especially on the original board where I've won sealing victories with a single investigator ;') As for the Epic Battles cards... The generic ones can be a bit annoying sometimes, but they aren't *too* devastating, usually, unless the wakeup catches you by surprise with a double doom or the gate limit breaking because you rolled horribly against odds for a gate closing several turns in a row. Even the custom cards for GOOs vary in difficulty considerably. Have you seen Hastur's? They're a joke.

::Shrug:: personally I don't like going for final battle victories (especially from the beginning of the game), because if you plan for them, they're usually too easy (except against a few of the tough AOs who lack weak spots and don't take 5-8 turns before they can kill you).

I can imagine this scenario very well ;') Investigator one says to investigator two, "You know, we are aware that the being which shall emerge from another dimension has a weakness that can be exploited to banish it from our world." Investigator two responds, "Yes, but I really don't feel that's a legitimate way of defeating the eldritch horror, we need to challenge ourselves as much as possible while fighting to prevent this monstrosity from devouring our world. Besides, it's bad sportsmanship to take advantage of our enemy's weakness." Investigator one blinks incomprehendingly.

Avi_dreader said:

There, I fixed it for you.

I see the above as a very real possible debate between players who are deeply in-character: what kind of a price are we willing to pay in order to get rid of this threat to the whole world? Adds a nice little moral theme to the whole game. As I said, I see nothing wrong in going for a draw (=victory in final battle) if the players see that their chances for a real victory are slim.

Anyways, I'm done with this discussion - our viewpoints differ so much that it's safe to say we should agree to disagree. Unless you bring in some new arguments, I'm not going to reply to this topic anymore.

-Villain

Okay, I'm gonna quietly take back this plane now...unhijack the thread, as it were.

I grabbed my list from the old forum, and surprisingly, it requires little amendment. (I'm leaving out Epic Battles, since they're optional, not everyone has them, and I generally despise spoilers.) Here's how my nightmares tend to shake out:

LEVEL 1: MOSTLY HARMLESS
I kid, but with these first four, you generally know what you're up against. Every game of Arkham Horror has twists and turns, but at least these guys tend to post caution signs!

16. Azathoth
Still doesn't DO anything. The best GOO for testing out OTHER game mechanics (new boards, new Heralds, custom Investigators). And the easiest Final Battle of the lot: YOU LOSE.

15. Nyarlathotep
Nyarl tends to leave the board alone: Masks are rare-ish, and Cultists are a bit more plentiful without being harder to face. Clues are easier to grab than trophies. Only a little harder to hit than Yig and Ith.

14. Yig
Yig's shortest Doom Track can be a dangerous liability. Games can be frantic as Investigators can get a real sense of TIME against Yig. But Yig is just not that hard to knock over.

13. Ithaqua
Stay out of the Streets! Some environments last too long against Ith. Losing your Items before facing Ith is AWFUL. But Ith is just a straight-out slugfest--Fight vs Fight--one of the easiest Final Battles to prepare for.
-------------------------
LEVEL 2: HIGHLY UNSTABLE
You may not even know they're there...but if they want to break you, THEY WILL.

12. Abhoth
If you can keep your monsters under control, Abhoth will just slumber away; if not, games can reach Yig speeds. No Cultists means less easy trophies. Final Battle is not too bad if you have LOTS of stuff.

11. Shub-Niggurath
Shub games tend to swing depending on how nice or mean the Cup is to you. But if you face her, her Physical Immunity tends to SHRED most Investigators.

10. Hastur
Eight clues to Seal is BRUTAL! If you can keep the Terror Track in check, Hastur comes at you with a glass jaw. If you can't, he comes at you in a cement truck.

09. Tsathoggua
It all depends on how resourceful you are, since Investigators will find themselves wandering into unusual places looking for things they need. Games swing on how fortunate your Encounters are.
-------------------------
LEVEL 3: MELTDOWN IMMINENT
Start with "You're going to lose," and work your way up from there. These guys have the entire town against you very quickly, and PAINFULLY SHORT Final Battles.

08. Eihort
Don't get attached to anyone! But if you don't mind losing Investigators, Eihort's really not that much (???) of a problem. At the end, once you lose one Investigator, Eihort becomes as indestructible as Cthulhu.

07. Shudde M'ell
Time is NOT on your side as both the Doom Track and the Rubble Pool click off quickly. She might be easy to hit, but you won't have time to hit her ENOUGH.

06. Y'Golonac
You...can't...SHOP! Y'G has rigged your favorite decks against you. And he will go through almost EVERYONE in 3-4 rounds.

05. Cthulhu
Losing Max San/Stam is still one of the biggest munches AH has to offer. And the regenerative Doom Track is almost impossible to beat, certainly not in only seven rounds.
-------------------------
LEVEL 4: THREE...TWO...ONE...
I can't win. I might come close if the planet has stopped spinning, but most of the time, I can only stare helplessly as they eat my dinner, wreck my car, and steal my girlfriend, laughing the whole time.

04. Atlach-Nacha
I've figured her out to the point where I can manage to play a game without embarassing myself, but I've only beaten her once by closing all Gates. There is simply NO WAY to beat her once she's in your face.

03. Glaaki
He keeps taking my stuff! I can't face the board empty-handed! And without stuff, by the time I do face him, the Terror Track only gives me a few rounds to die!!!

02. Yog-Sothoth
I can't believe a Base-Setter is this high on the list, but Yog has been my personal nemesis since the first game I faced him. Gate Difficulty: under even slight condition shifts, some Gates are uncloseable. Lost in Time and Space: there can be a JARRING SUDDENNESS to losing your Investigator. And if you get to face him, only Yog requires you to balance your Fight/Will slider to survive, which is EXTREMELY difficult against a -5 modifier!

01. Yibb-Tstll
And I thought Hastur was sadistic on Clues. Yibb cranks up the "NO BAD DICE!" screams to incalculable levels. Clues become hot potatoes, as you have to gage with agonizing scrutiny whether to use one or not, even to the point where you're using one just to be able to GRAB ANOTHER ONE! (Whoever thought Professoer Rice could be BAD!!!) Focus Attack is so, so, SO MEAN.

Looks like I veer a bit wildly away from Dam's list (Kingsport notwithstanding), but we landed on the same ruination: Glaaki and Yog, those jerks.

jgt7771 said:

Y'know, I've been thinking about how to kill her, or if she's killable (without gate closing), I think she probably is. You just need to prepare for the final battle from turn one. Delay her awakening by taking out lower frequency gates (higher frequency will just tend to reopen and add doom tokens faster than you want), if you can get lets say 10 gate trophies and a bunch of monster trophies, you should be able to afford blessings and five allies :' hrm... Five turns to kill her? Not great, but it could be worse, and don't forget, you get to horde up clues (because sealing's pointless, except maybe against a lowest frequency gate (just to keep the doom track down a little, I would rather keep the five clues though, I think). Uch... I hate Atlach... I think what I would probably do is go for either the ally that lets you ignore physical resistance or the ally that lets you ignore magic resistance, and just stock up one character as powerful as possible... Ehhh... It's still pretty iffy...

Heh... Okay, here's a strategy. Take out bank loans with *all* investigators, then shop through the unique item shop for the mission that lets you close all gates. How's that? Lets say you have three or four investigators... That's forty bucks... You can probably cycle through the deck with that and starting cash (if you only buy crappy items). Uhhhh... Never mind ;'D I just did a trial of that strat... Cycling through the deck with all the expansions costs about a hundred cash. I suppose if you've got a large enough team you could go for it ;'D or Daisy and Alchemy/s

Errr.... How about this, deliberately let the Dunwich Horror come out so you can fight it and search the spell deck for the BGotW spell that lets you remove doom tokens (cast that with a crystal of the elder things and some clue tokens). You could cut Atlach's life bar in half :' it's still pretty **** horrid though... ::Laughter:: I love a Elder God that makes you consider waking the Dunwich Horror, just so you can get a spell to take it ought.

Heh... I guess she really is unexploitable... I'd probably go for a closing victory if I had five or more players, (sealing small gates while doing a simultaneous closing for the win) and a combat victory with four or less...

I'm pretty sure she's the hardest... I think one of the game developers saw It one too many times ;')

Also... Yibb-Tsill is annoying, especially if you go for a sealing victory, but if you plan on taking her out in combat from the beginning of the game, she's not *that* hard, just try to get her to a modifier between 0 and two. Bleh... Who am I kidding? I hate Yibb... Even in combat she's tough. Can't shotgun her even if you want to, and her 22 doom token track, blarg. Still... A few blessed investigators with two focus ::shrug::

I've found Atlacha-Nacha rather easy to defeat, assuming your players all accept that you will probably be fighting her in final combat.

You need Allies, you start with 11. Even assuming you select investigators before determining you are fighitng her, getting allies is rather easy. Consider this" You gain allies by cashing in Gate Trophies and Monster trophies. Allies are removed mianly by terror raising because of the outskirts. But, if your players are killing monsters to get the toughness, then its unlikely that terror will increase due to outskirts. My group has played Atlacha about 3 or 4 times, each time we defeated her in epic combat with no difficulty (and without loosing an investigator).

I also find it unbelievable that you had such a hard time fighting Itahqua. He is the glass-jaw of my group and I can't remember the last time I lost to Ithaqua.

I also once tried to rate the GOOs, but its a moot point. You will not be able to get a good agreement by the people here. If anything, I think Arkham statistics is the only way to really get a good grip on the difficulty of each GOO.

Acebob said:

Hmmm... That doesn't sound so bad... How many players are in your group?

Acebob said:

But he steals all my items . Seriously, losing 10 of your 11 combat usable items while Blessed??? Plus, always seem to get 2-3 of the least hot spots opening with Ithaqua in play. Ithaqua doesn't play fair. In final combat he might be a glass-jaw IF I could keep even 50% of my weapons (or even the 33% that I should mathematically have).

Dam said:

Heh... Just get deputized, combat allies and a bunch of cheap weapons. (And blessings of course), that should be enough even with bad luck.

Dam said:

It's probably my dice. I often have a hard time rolling three successes with nine or ten dice, four are mostly out of the question; and Shub has the tendency to throw Dark Young and other three-toughness monsters at me that are both difficult to kill and difficult to evade (I hate the Star Vampire).

Dam said:

Our style of play seems to be very similar, I also go through a gate as soon as I get five clues. However, Glaaki doesn't get a lot of Mythos cards that raise the Terror level when playing against me. Even if he does get one, I tend to draw the Servant that discards Skills first, which is annoying but mostly doesn't do a lot against Gate sealing. Seems he's using up all his luck against you and doesn't have any left for me.

Dam said:

I also use 4 Investigators, all of them randomly drawn. About the Black Goat Herald; I am not sure if some AOs are even defeatable using this Herald. You got any experience with, for example Yig and Black Goat?

Morgaln said:

If you note, in the original post I listed AH + DH + DP + KiY + BG as being played 24 times. Because I got the last 2 expansions at the same time, it was easy pickings to "plan" my 5th and 6th rotations. On the 5th rotation, alternate between KiY and Black Goat Herald, on the 6th, use the other one with a GOO. I went 14-8-2 for those 24 games.

With Black Goat Herald (looks like 6-4-2):

Ithaqua: 6 seals

Hastur: draw

Nyarlathotep: draw

Shudde M'ell: closing gates win

Glaaki: draw

Abhoth: defeat

Yig: draw

Cthulhu: closing gates win (pretty much down to Kate Winthrop with +1 Lore skill and Tome + Arcane Insight)

Tsathoggua: 6 seals

Azathoth: 6 seals

Shub-Niggurath: 6 seals

Yog Sothoth: defeat

This thread should probably be permanently on the first page. Lots of players are curious as to who are the toughest GOO's, and this is the place to go for forum opinion on that question.