In X wing, with everything else being equal, a higher PS will always mean higher point cost for a ship, because its generally better to move second and pretty much always better to fire first.

But as i wrote, its generally better to move second, not always.

I cant count the times I 've put a low pilot skill ship in my fleet, either because it performs fine regardless of its PS, or because i want to use it as a blocker.

I have never, ever chosen a PS2 version of that ship over a PS1. Have you guys?

PS1 is cheaper, and all i sacrifice is the chance of firing first if my opponet fields a PS1 or -depending on initiative- PS2 ship. Besides it being cheaper, i am also more likely to get a block, which is probably why i want with such a low PS ship.

Wouldn't things be way more interesting if a PS1 ship was more expensive than the PS2? It makes a lot of sense for some (i know, not all) ships and it would have a significant impact on the variety of PS of ships flown.

Am I missing something important? Cause we all know its better to have a ship that is good at one thing than average at a lot of things (in this case mid PS compared to super high or super low PS), so why was that not the case when evaluating pilot skill?

EDIT: How do i edit the title typo?

I can't think of any ship which has both a PS1 and PS2 version, though.

When you're comparing PS1 to PS2, yes, there is an argument for being PS1 (so you can go first and know you'll be able to block).

You tend to jump from PS 1 to PS3 and PS2 to PS4.

And no, people tend not to take the PS3 generics - most of the time they either take the lowest, cheapest version (Academy pilot or whatever) or jump up to the version which has an Elite Pilot Talent.

Black Squadron gets a lot of use not just because PS4 'shoots first' against most generics, but also because it's the cheapest elite pilot talent caddy in the game....meaning probably the best Crack Shot carrier (especially with Howlrunner or Youngster on hand to provide cheap bonuses to big swarms).

Obsidian Squadron, by comparison..... going up to PS3 is a point of cost that....doesn't really gain you anything.

Obsidian Squadron Pilot, Red Squadron Pilot, Dagger Squadron Pilot, Avenger Squadron Pilot, Shadow Squadron Pilot and so on are chronically underused for this reason. "Better" generics that see the table are the ones which have an elite pilot talent, or else the cheapest ones going.

Frankly there's no reason ever to want to use them. It's why I'd be tempted to try "squadron" upgrade cards which reward taking canonical mixes of ships - because that's the only time you'd ever take the **** things.

I have never, ever chosen a PS2 version of that ship over a PS1. Have you guys?

Can't say I have, although I'd wager that's because I've never had the option to.

The case certainly can be made and I'd say the appearance of Adaptability even proves it as it tweaks PS for no cost except filling an available EPT.

Now I can't think of anything that has PS 1 and PS 2 versions although there are a few that will jump from PS 1 to PS3 for a point. As mentioned that rarely does you a lot of good unless you actually happen to fly against a lot of low PS ships and you aren't looking for/worried about blocks.

While you may make the argument that the lower PS version shouldn't always cost less I do NOT believe you can really justify saying they should be more expensive because they are a low PS. If you swapped the point cost of the Academy Pilot and Obsidian I believe you'd suddenly see more Obsidians simply because they are the cheaper ship. Moving first is good for blocking and avoiding blocks if that is the goal but if those fail moving second gives better Action options including repositioning in some cases and also means shooting first which is a big advantage.

I can't think of any ship which has both a PS1 and PS2 version, though.

When you're comparing PS1 to PS2, yes, there is an argument for being PS1 (so you can go first and know you'll be able to block).

You tend to jump from PS 1 to PS3 and PS2 to PS4.

And no, people tend not to take the PS3 generics - most of the time they either take the lowest, cheapest version (Academy pilot or whatever) or jump up to the version which has an Elite Pilot Talent.

Black Squadron gets a lot of use not just because PS4 'shoots first' against most generics, but also because it's the cheapest elite pilot talent caddy in the game....meaning probably the best Crack Shot carrier (especially with Howlrunner or Youngster on hand to provide cheap bonuses to big swarms).

Obsidian Squadron, by comparison..... going up to PS3 is a point of cost that....doesn't really gain you anything.

Obsidian Squadron Pilot, Red Squadron Pilot, Dagger Squadron Pilot, Avenger Squadron Pilot, Shadow Squadron Pilot and so on are chronically underused for this reason. "Better" generics that see the table are the ones which have an elite pilot talent, or else the cheapest ones going.

Frankly there's no reason ever to want to use them. It's why I'd be tempted to try "squadron" upgrade cards which reward taking canonical mixes of ships - because that's the only time you'd ever take the **** things.

Obsidian swarms were actually very popular and a cheap and efficient way to counter other swarms when they were more popular. As I mentioned, Paul Heaver's Biggs Walks the Daggs was another example where we saw a World Championship list pay for PS for the similar. I point those out because there were certainly reasons, so "no reason ever" is a bit strong, imo, and I think that with the right combination of cards, we could see those conditions return.

At the point we're at in the game, things have changed, of course, and basic generics in general are struggling. Most people don't take ANY kind of small ship generic unless it can take a useful upgrade (BMST, Crack Shot) or as filler for their last 12-15 points.

Obsidian Squadron Swarms actually did see some use during Wave 6 as a counter to BBBZ and Panic Attack that also provided some protection against Predator. Super Fat Han also used Tala Squadron Pilots for an edge against the Bandit Squadron Pilots that were the biggest threat in the Fat Han mirror. The reason we don't see those ships anymore is because shooting first against only generics is no longer very relevant. Red/Dagger/Grey/Gamma/Avenger/Storm/Guardian/Blackmoon Squadron Pilots being overpriced and not having an EPT doesn't help them out either (Admit it- You forgot a few of those existed- And I didn't even list every one of the EPT-less second generics).

There are many cases where higher PS does not cost more than the lower PS:

Z95: PS1 Scum Binayre Pirate and PS2 Rebel Bandit both cost 12 squad points.

Tie Bomber: PS7 Major Rhymer 26 points vs PS8 Tomax Bren at 24.

Tie Interceptor: PS6 Royal Guard is 22 points versus PS5 Fels Wrath and Lt. Lorrir at 23 points.

Tie Fighter: PS3 Chaser vs PS4 Wampa and Black all at 14 points;

Tie Fighter: PS5 Night Beast and Winged Gundark versus PS6 Youngster all at 15 points

Tie Defender: PS5 Ryad vs PS6 Glaive at 34.

Tie Defender: PS6 Col Vessery vs PS7 Maarek Stele at 35.

Tie Advanced: PS3 Lt Colzet vs PS4 Storm Squad at 23.

T70 Xwing: PS6 Red Ace vs PS7 Nien Nunb at 29

X Wing: PS3 Tarn vs Red Squad Pilot at 23

X Wing: PS6 Garven vs Porkins at 26

X Wing: PS8 Wes vs PS9 Wedge at 29.

There are many cases where higher PS does not cost more than the lower PS:

Z95: PS1 Scum Binayre Pirate and PS2 Rebel Bandit both cost 12 squad points.

Tie Bomber: PS7 Major Rhymer 26 points vs PS8 Tomax Bren at 24.

Tie Interceptor: PS6 Royal Guard is 22 points versus PS5 Fels Wrath and Lt. Lorrir at 23 points.

Tie Fighter: PS3 Chaser vs PS4 Wampa and Black all at 14 points;

Tie Fighter: PS5 Night Beast and Winged Gundark versus PS6 Youngster all at 15 points

Tie Defender: PS5 Ryad vs PS6 Glaive at 34.

Tie Defender: PS6 Col Vessery vs PS7 Maarek Stele at 35.

Tie Advanced: PS3 Lt Colzet vs PS4 Storm Squad at 23.

T70 Xwing: PS6 Red Ace vs PS7 Nien Nunb at 29

X Wing: PS3 Tarn vs Red Squad Pilot at 23

X Wing: PS6 Garven vs Porkins at 26

X Wing: PS8 Wes vs PS9 Wedge at 29.

You actually have a good point, but in all these cases, except the Z-95 (if im not blind!) you are comparing generics to named pilots with unique abilities. Nonetheless, i guess i should have made it clear i am talking low PS generics.

People (myself included) take GSP A wings (PS 3) over PTA (PS1) all the time.

People (myself included) take GSP A wings (PS 3) over PTA (PS1) all the time.

Green Squadron has an EPT, and the ability to take the tilte that's why you are taking it over the PS 1 version....

Green squadrons are fantastic ships because of there EPT's not because they are PS3 instead of PS1

People (myself included) take GSP A wings (PS 3) over PTA (PS1) all the time.

Green Squadron has an EPT, and the ability to take the tilte that's why you are taking it over the PS 1 version....

Green squadrons are fantastic ships because of there EPT's not because they are PS3 instead of PS1

Fair point.

There are many cases where higher PS does not cost more than the lower PS:

OP specifically said "with everything else being equal". You compare pilots with different pilot abilities and ships with different upgrade bars.

There are many cases where higher PS does not cost more than the lower PS:

Z95: PS1 Scum Binayre Pirate and PS2 Rebel Bandit both cost 12 squad points.

Tie Bomber: PS7 Major Rhymer 26 points vs PS8 Tomax Bren at 24.

Tie Interceptor: PS6 Royal Guard is 22 points versus PS5 Fels Wrath and Lt. Lorrir at 23 points.

Tie Fighter: PS3 Chaser vs PS4 Wampa and Black all at 14 points;

Tie Fighter: PS5 Night Beast and Winged Gundark versus PS6 Youngster all at 15 points

Tie Defender: PS5 Ryad vs PS6 Glaive at 34.

Tie Defender: PS6 Col Vessery vs PS7 Maarek Stele at 35.

Tie Advanced: PS3 Lt Colzet vs PS4 Storm Squad at 23.

T70 Xwing: PS6 Red Ace vs PS7 Nien Nunb at 29

X Wing: PS3 Tarn vs Red Squad Pilot at 23

X Wing: PS6 Garven vs Porkins at 26

X Wing: PS8 Wes vs PS9 Wedge at 29.

You actually have a good point, but in all these cases, except the Z-95 (if im not blind!) you are comparing generics to named pilots with unique abilities. Nonetheless, i guess i should have made it clear i am talking low PS generics.

In the z-95 case, the PS1 scum version does have an illicit slot (which the PS2 rebel version does not).

So I guess you're effectively paying 1 point for the illicit; (scum z-95 might have been 11 points without it).

In either case, it's kinda hard to make that kind of comparison between the two budget z-95's mostly because no player will ever (normally) be in the position of being able to choose between them.

I have to say though (hypothetically speaking) that the illicit wins out over the extra point of pilot skill - but only if I'm going to equip something in there.

Dang...you're really onto something here

The higher PS of the generics is a very, very situational use: It's worth buying if you anticipate matches against other generics.

Biggs Walks the Dogs was the classic example - Paying 2 points per B-wing to get PS 4 is garbage as a general rule, but Paul Heaver paid it anyway - so he could move later and shoot sooner than the PS2 generics and PS3 Obsidians that were out there a lot at the time.

But if you're not facing similar PS - and more than once or twice, it really wants to be enough to justify the price across your expected matchups for the whole day - they're literally wasted points.

They'll never be powerful in a vacuum. They're plenty powerful in the right meta. ... We've just not seen that meta since the point that Wave IV, and everyone favourite Phantoms, showed up. Remember that?

its also worth taking a generic at PS3 or higher to dodge Predator bonus. Its such a rare thing that people often forget Predator rerolls 2 dice against PS1-2 ships......(yaknow i just noticed that includes PS0...i dont think ive EVER seen anyone reroll twice against a PS0 critted target)

But, other than that the higher PS generic is only chosen because of the EPT.

Nobody takes a Glaive Defender over a Delta because its PS6, they want the EPT.

Nobody takes Obsidian Squad TIE/lns, they either take Academies or Blacks or a name.

If the generic has a matching PS with the other ships in your list it is often worth it. I've even taken adaptability as a decrease to keep the list acting together.

The higher PS of the generics is a very, very situational use: It's worth buying if you anticipate matches against other generics.

Biggs Walks the Dogs was the classic example - Paying 2 points per B-wing to get PS 4 is garbage as a general rule, but Paul Heaver paid it anyway - so he could move later and shoot sooner than the PS2 generics and PS3 Obsidians that were out there a lot at the time.

But if you're not facing similar PS - and more than once or twice, it really wants to be enough to justify the price across your expected matchups for the whole day - they're literally wasted points.

They'll never be powerful in a vacuum. They're plenty powerful in the right meta. ... We've just not seen that meta since the point that Wave IV, and everyone favourite Phantoms, showed up. Remember that?

Exactly. I'd have considered 'buying up' to PS4, if it meant the difference between shooting before PS3 torpedo jumpmasters or after (less of an issue now, I know). The problem is that PS3 is just 'shoot simultaneously', which is a problem.

It's very much the issue. Yes, I've had matches where I wish my Epsilon Squadrons were Zeta Squadrons (like a game against twin laser turret Y-wings), but for the vast majority of players, 66% or more of their squad is named unique aces.

Even the ones who aren't, are usually 'elite' generics - black squadron, glaive squadron, tansari point veteran..... so moving from PS1 to 3 still makes no difference compared to the - actually quite sizeable - cost of 1 point per member of a swarm.

Even the ones who aren't, are usually 'elite' generics - black squadron, glaive squadron, tansari point veteran..... so moving from PS1 to 3 still makes no difference compared to the - actually quite sizeable - cost of 1 point per member of a swarm.

Yep, and that should be an issue, if -all else being equal- there is no real benefit to shift from PS1 to PS2 or even PS3 and people will always stick to the lowest available PS in order to save points, then you have an issue. Hell, couldn't we agree that if there was a cheaper, PS1 version of the once dreaded jumpmasters, everyone would jump to that? And that PS1 version now is almost guaranteed to not get blocked as its most probably moving first!

I should add that the whole argument im making assumes that blocking in this game has significant value, which to be honest is something the competitive scene hasn't seem to value that much. You will of course see big plays with blocking, but when a huge amount of people run named pilots and aces its safe to say that most of us dont thing of blocking when building a fleet. Still, there are cases.

Palob might be another good example. Lets say a new version of Palob came out, with everything the same except he is now PS1 and costs X amount less points. Wouldn't we all jump on that in order to gain those valuable extra points? You re not gonna shoot first in some cases but I doubt that would be a deal breaker. PS seems to matter the most in the 7+ range, and anything below that due to the meta is sort of a wasteland .

I should add that the whole argument im making assumes that blocking in this game has significant value, which to be honest is something the competitive scene hasn't seem to value that much. You will of course see big plays with blocking, but when a huge amount of people run named pilots and aces its safe to say that most of us dont thing of blocking when building a fleet. Still, there are cases.

Blocking is good - indeed it's a swarm's main way of engaging an action-dependent ace - but recent 'big name' builds have become really, really tolerant to it.

Concord Dawn Fenn Rau is essentially immune to 2-dice attacks whether he has a focus token or not.

Dengar and Attani Mindlink ships get their tokens from elsewhere. X7 defenders don't need to complete their manoeuvre to gain a free evade.

PS is important, but because it's a binary 'better or not', it's always driven by the opponent you expect to face. At the higher end, going from 8 to 9 is huge. Going from 9 to 10 or 11 is still big, because of Soontir Fel, Fenn Rau and Dengar, one of whom you can expect to see across the table at some point at any multi-game event.

But 5's, 6s, and 7s have got more important too. TIE defenders tend to be Vessery and Ryad - who whilst ungodly powerful for a small fighter, are fairly mediocre in pilot skill. Most of the scum large ships - like the shadowcaster and Bossk - lack the PS8+ that most people class as "true aces".

But generics, as a mass, don't get much use - or at least, if they do, it's as 'filler' with one ship. The TIE swarm is the only regularly seen 'massed generics' squad.

I'd agree that 7-8 seems to be the 'break point' - if you're below that, people tend to accept "I'm not going first" and just go for either the cheapest pilot or the best pilot ability.

Which isn't a reason not to try them yourself. 4 T-70s can be **** good - because that many heavy fighters is imposing as hell, and they're a lot more flexible than a lot of people think, with talon rolls, boost, and an interceptor-esque dial with an R2 astromech aboard.

You do see generics a lot more in epic, I should point out.

This has two reasons:

1. With umpty-ump ships on the board, people will often take half-a-dozen generics to minimize the number of pilot abilities and upgrade abilities they need to keep track of. Firstly it speeds the game up, but don't underestimate the advantage of reducing the mental strain of using your squad. If all you need to concentrate on is not fouling up your manoeuvre dials, rather than remembering which X-wing moves in which order and has which unique astromech, life is much easier and you have time and effort to spend actually thinking about more abstract things like "having an actual battle-plan".
2. Saving the odd point matters more. Saving points matters purely in terms of what else you can buy with them. To buy an extra ship requires a minimum of 12 points saved (getting you an academy pilot, binyare pirate, or bandit squadron pilot). To get an extra ship which is enough of a credible threat to matter requires something like 18-20 points saved. In 100 points, that's a lot. In a 300-400 point epic force, saving a point or two a ship rather than jumping straight to the best named pilot can easily net you enough saved points to field a meaningful chunk of extra ships.

I have never, ever chosen a PS2 version of that ship over a PS1. Have you guys?

Can't say I have, although I'd wager that's because I've never had the option to.

Green Squadron Adaptability!

Delta Defenders. Theyre PS1 and you usually see 2 of them in a 3defender list.

Delta Defenders. Theyre PS1 and you usually see 2 of them in a 3defender list.

But you never, ever see Onyxes.

Seriously, the way the game is now the generic without an EPT is just a complete waste of cardboard.

Right, and you never see Obsidian TIE/ln either.

Heck i dont even see Glaives used, probably because theyre priced the same as the two named pilots we always use anyway.

I think FFG puts too little planning into pilot ability costs. It feels like 90% of the ships are just given an ability, with no real cost, since theres tons of ships with +3pts for the same amount of bonus PS another ship has that also gains an ability. Ryad being one of the few i can think of off the top of my head that is different, -1 PS for an ability, otherwise identical to a Glaive. Would that be Rexlar's ability, heh we'd never see Ryad. But Ryad's ability is so **** ridiculous that it probably should have made her a 36pt ship.

Now, had this been a game where we have 8-10 ships, it would be different with the current pricing schemes. Effectively Unique as a cost, since only 1 of your fleet has that perk. But in a 2-4 ship game....the hell would you not take the awesome ability for?

I do wish they'd just give all ships an EPT, but i think some of them would get rather broken. Also dont think this would have been as big of an issue if contracted scouts didnt have one, as they have 0 business having it vs the highest PS Kwing, Ghost, or Punisher not even having it, let alone their generics.

Edit: Nevermind