Hi everyone,

Lately we've been toying around J.Talbain*** in my playgroup and we've noticed some issues with this character:

- It is great against control decks, as it plays foundations for free while the opponent is trying to set up.

- It is way more vulnerable, to ultrafast aggro decks, such as Talim, but seems like having a higher than 50% chances of winning this kind of matchups. I suppose it depends on the build.

- It's a character that benefits a lot with playing second, because he is actually building in his opponent first turn.

- He can play lots of 2cc consistently, because he doesn't have to check most of the time for foundations.

So, with all of this being said, we're looking for both ways of dealing with it:

- The only thing I can think, for now, is to Rat Chaser my Draw Step while he has a Moon token. This doesn't shut him, but gives a little advantage.

Opposed to this, the better options/symbols to build him around:

- All has overall the best foundations, but good has a way better kill condition, with Feline Spike.

Thoughts?

nokto.-

"- The only thing I can think, for now, is to Rat Chaser my Draw Step while he has a Moon token. This doesn't shut him, but gives a little advantage."

Doesn't work. He isn't drawing due to a card effect. Key point: the text says "as though it was your turn." so just like promo Alba, what he's doing is he's adjusting the game's rules to allow you to draw as normal during your opponent's turn, rather than causing the draw in and of himself.

also, keep in mind he can very easily cheat resources and play off two or even three of his symbols rather than just one.

Tagrineth said:

Oh well, we ruled here that Rat Chaser worked, because he is drawing because of a "card effect", without it he wouldn't draw... Guess we were wrong, d'oh.

Anyway we reached a point in the final match (Nokto's All Talbain VS my own Chaos/Fire Talim) where nobody would play foundations, then I just scooped as I reached the conclusion there was no way I could win. Either I killed wolfie in the first turns (like I did in swiss) or I couldn't be bored to play an eternal game like that.

This reminds me: in a Talbain*** vs Talbain*** match, would each one of them be able to drop TWO foundations for each foundation the other played? I guess that would be a extremely fast or extremely slow game.

I have been playing Talbain*** for a solid week now. In play testing I have found that some of the best options is to A) Make him go first. Downside to this is that if i drew some attacks into my hand I would attack rather than lay foundations that I can easily place in my staging area when my opponent sets his staging area up. B) The most suitable way of messing with Talbain is The Ways of Punishment. Force Talbain to discard on your attacks and have a way to either draw more cards or better yet, recursion into a kill card you might need.

Talbain is uber sick, but there are ways to beat him.

Amano Jacu said:

In UFS, I found, if it makes sense, that's NOT what will be ruled.

Helpful hints against Wolfy:

Board Sweepers - If you can board sweep on his token turn, you're in pretty good shape. You have to do it after you play 3-4 foundations, so be ready to check an 11 or a 12. That way, on their turn, they are somewhat forced to set up foundations and lower their hand size, so on your turn, you've got a free shot at him w/o his refilled hand.

Attack backwards, wait for his non-token turn - Play 2 foundations first, then attack. You want to lower his hand size a bit, then attack. If he blocks with a foundation, you get a free placement. Don't be afraid to attack, if he's getting rid of attacks to block not play foundations, it's less attacks to kill you on his next turn, and he'll want to OTK.

Play Asset Hate - Talbain decks are going to run an extra large set of assets. Put some hate on those assets, get rid of the ones you don't want around.

Play Foundation Hate - This one's slightly obvious, but your opponent dropping cards on your turn means you can mess with them before they are playable. Be sure to get rid of annoyances like Shooting Capoera as soon as you can which readies his stuff. Also cards that keep lots of his stuff committed or not readying like Huitzil's or Juni's cards will also keep his board advantage in check.

Put cards into his momentum - There's not many cards on those symbols that'd go into a Talbain deck that helps him ditch his momentum. Feline Spike does... but that's when he's killing you. Stuff like Fio's cards or Ira-Spinta helps keep his cards where he doesn't want it. Discard is decent, this is significantly better.

The best way to play against JT is too play assets or attack him with revitalize gone he is more succeptable to aggro .

Nyobari said:

Incredibly easy detail to forget but one of the most important points for going up against the wolfman.

The absolute best hands down way to actually beat this guy pre rotation is Ibuki / Infiltrating. She can either:

- Play 2 foundations and then go for infiltrating with her +3 to wipe what Talbain got for free

- Start attacking turn one

That being said post rotation is a whole new issue.

With a few exceptions, most of the tactics that you'd want to use against Talbain... is how the Talbain deck "should" be set up to use against you, which makes the fight, to a degree, almost always in the Talbain's player's advantage. Let's take a look at few times where you might actually get an advantage...

**Guy** - His speed boost makes a huge difference, as Talbain fills his hand on your turn every other time. Getting a +6 speed boost with your first attack is pretty good. Guy is going to see a ton of competitive play, we'll see whether he's Wolfsbane or Wolfmeat soon enough.

***Victor*** - Another unorthodox play, he helps to put your opponent's cards right back into their hand. If you're careful, you can keep his board down to 5 cards + character, which is not what he'd really want. It's indirect asset hate, as he'll pick up the assets so he can replay them on his turn... as picking up foundations to play is backwards from how he wants to play.

::Sophitia:: - She can refill her hand EVERY turn, better than Talbain. Unless the Talbain player is running Divination, they're only going to get 4 Tag Along uses against it. Also should see some competitive play.

:*:Zangief:*: - Probably the most odd of the recommendations, as he can ready your opponent's foundations, but he's also a brutal tank that is not going to go down easily at all. If you look at his symbols, he's got great discard possibilities which will turn into a 45 minute deckout win for you.... and it'll work not just on Wolfboy.

Nyobari said:

Any Taliban worth his salt LAUGHS at you plan. Red Lotus of the Crimson Sun. It has good he has good. You need to flood your Deck with ways to deal with just Taliban. How will an anti-taliban deck fair in a NON-Taliban enviroment? You can't build the Meta around ONE character.

Any talbain deck "worth his salt" realizes that relying on red lotus alone does not work in this enviroment anymore. It is way too easy to play enough abilities to overwhelm the card. Think about it...cards with stun or ira spinta, great gerdenheim, program malfunction, olcadons, chinese boxing...

The best use I have found for the new Talbain is to stack him on the old promo. Moon token turn you have 9 handsize that you refill n your opponnents turn slap down the foundations with generaly enough cards in hand to handle anything. THan again I've found his best symbol I think is actually All not Good.

i have found that for me the best defense against talbain is a good offense. Don't let up on him and give him chance to draw into what he wants. Lay the foundations you need, hold onto attacks to block. At least that way if he gets a free foundation you are getting a card in your SA too.

Rejection is huge against talbain, atleast the talbain i have played b/c he wins with many small attacks, as opposed to one big one. Take 2-3 hits, then rejection to reduce damage and get back a chunk of that life. usually he ends up near tapping out and i can finish him off after he fails to take me out.

TaintedDoughnut said:

I arrived to that conclusion too playing Talbain, but in the other direction. I played the new one as the starting character and the old promo one as character stacking and blocking.

I also agree with TaintedDoughnut in the fact that ALL is actually the best symbol to build him around. I rejected the option to build him around three symbols because I wanted more consistency in case I had to play foundations instead of waiting for my opponent to play them. It was the case for instance in my moon token turns where I got 6 foundations in hand and my opponent got around 3 cards in hand. It's true, I have no Red Lotus, but your deck cannot do everything...

nokto.-

It really dosent matter what talbains "Best" Symbols is, he can run all 3 pretty easily in the same deck. Additonally hes honestly ok to splash death on if you really want because of the prominence of seal in his decks.

In legacy there is actually a great tatic to beat/control him, and its a good way to beat him in general, Emptiness. If you can play multiple copies in your opening turn with someone such as Dhalsim 8hs he will get his foundations down off of yours but he wont get new cards off his redraw unless he discards down 1 to see a new card. Since legacy also has Ring vet and Yoga mastery and lost memories, i would say that void kicks his butt hard. Unfortunatley that only one deck type in legacy...