This scenario is going to be very specific but it may put to rest a problem/misunderstanding that I have with space combat.

The scenario is thus:

A yt-1300 is in combat with 2 tie fighters. The yt-1300's turrets are busted and can only fire in the forward arc. Common sense would tell me the the guys in the yt-1300 are totally screwed as the yt only has forward firing and would never be able to just whip around and shoot at the tie fighters. But i can't find a game mechanic that would prevent this very thing from happening.

What ends up happening is that the tie fighters and the yt-1300 just take turns shooting each other because they are both at close range. Because range seems to be the only requirement to determining whether or not a ship can fire despite there weapons that can only fire in certain arcs.

Can someone out there tell me what I am doing wrong here?

Thanks

The TIEs should Gain the Advantage over the YT-1300. It was recently clairified that the arc you choose to fire at is also the only arc the enemy can attack you from.

Ohhhh ok. So basically if the TIEs fail the gain the advantage check then I could say something like "The TIEs overshoot their target and are now left open to attack" or something? Which would explain why the YT-1300 is actually able to shoot them?

Thanks again for your help.

This question highlights my big problem with the space combat rules as written. There is absolutely nothing the pilot of the YT-1300 can do to prevent the TIEs getting on their tail in this situation. If the TIES succeed at Gain The Advantage, the only way to shake them off is for the YT-1300 to use Gain The Advantage - except the YT-1300 is so slow it's not allowed to use that action. The pilot, no matter how skilled, can't do anything to make the TIEs roll harder, and once the TIEs have succeeded the pilot can't do anything to prevent them from sitting in the rear arc and blasting them to pieces. The YT-1300's only options are a hyperspace jump (if possible), surrender or death.

Or am I wrong?

This question highlights my big problem with the space combat rules as written. There is absolutely nothing the pilot of the YT-1300 can do to prevent the TIEs getting on their tail in this situation. If the TIES succeed at Gain The Advantage, the only way to shake them off is for the YT-1300 to use Gain The Advantage - except the YT-1300 is so slow it's not allowed to use that action. The pilot, no matter how skilled, can't do anything to make the TIEs roll harder, and once the TIEs have succeeded the pilot can't do anything to prevent them from sitting in the rear arc and blasting them to pieces. The YT-1300's only options are a hyperspace jump (if possible), surrender or death.

Or am I wrong?

Somewhere it was once suggested (probably on the order66 podcast ) that the YT-1300 can shoot back if the pilot succeeds on an opposed piloting check. And that the YT-1300 would still suffer the effects of evasive maneuvers and can't choose the arc where it hits, so that this stays weaker than the Gain the advantage option.

Others say that, while gain the advantage lets you choose the arc where you hit the enemy, it doesn't prevent the enemy from shooting back, even if they don't have weapons in that arc, because dogfights are highly dynamic. Basically you don't manage to stay on their tail all the time, but only for your shot. This lessens the effect of gain the advantage significantly.

If you use the search function, there are countless discussion on this topic. And all of the dev's answers on this topic so far have been very vague and mostly lead to more confusion.

Gain the advantage is one of those things I really would like to see a re-write in the errata of, to define more precisely how it's used.

May the Advantage be with you

Fred

This question highlights my big problem with the space combat rules as written. There is absolutely nothing the pilot of the YT-1300 can do to prevent the TIEs getting on their tail in this situation. If the TIES succeed at Gain The Advantage, the only way to shake them off is for the YT-1300 to use Gain The Advantage - except the YT-1300 is so slow it's not allowed to use that action. The pilot, no matter how skilled, can't do anything to make the TIEs roll harder, and once the TIEs have succeeded the pilot can't do anything to prevent them from sitting in the rear arc and blasting them to pieces. The YT-1300's only options are a hyperspace jump (if possible), surrender or death.

Or am I wrong?

The most recent iteration of the Piloting: Space rules in F&D (Skills chapter) clarifies that you can use an opposed piloting check in situations where you are prevented from using the Gain the Advantage action.

So the pilot of the YT-1300 could make an opposed piloting check vs the TIEs so as to be able to bring the forward facing guns to bear. Personally, I'd still rule all the other effects of GtA still apply in this situation but the rules are silent on that part.

This question highlights my big problem with the space combat rules as written. There is absolutely nothing the pilot of the YT-1300 can do to prevent the TIEs getting on their tail in this situation. If the TIES succeed at Gain The Advantage, the only way to shake them off is for the YT-1300 to use Gain The Advantage - except the YT-1300 is so slow it's not allowed to use that action. The pilot, no matter how skilled, can't do anything to make the TIEs roll harder, and once the TIEs have succeeded the pilot can't do anything to prevent them from sitting in the rear arc and blasting them to pieces. The YT-1300's only options are a hyperspace jump (if possible), surrender or death.

Or am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. Somewhat wrong in general (but potentially right in the specific encounter), the YT-1300 has speed 3, but the pilot could have the koiogran turn talent which allows him to negate GtA or the ship could be upgraded with an better Ion turbine to reach speed 4 or initiate a chase and use advantages from the pilot check and the environment to negate GtA or even knock the TIE-Fighters of course or into a collision.

Furthermore does the YT-1300 come with a ventral and a dorsal turret on default, meaning that there is no blind spot in the first place, even with GtA at least one turret will be able to fire at you. Still, just one turret is better than both turrets. Now in your scenario this is the perfect moment for the astromech to save the day and repair the turrets … or drop some cargo into the flight path of the casing TIE-Fighters. ;-)

Damage control and mechanic is a vulnerable ability in the heat of space combat.

Being able to fly a spaceship does not a pilot make. As alluded to, someone with only ranks in Piloting: Space will be in a tough spot. However, actual pilots (with a piloting specialization) will have a bunch of tricks up their sleeves to either avoid/mitigate fire or turn the situation around.

For me, i would do opposed pilot checks, see if the pilot can get the ship into position to fire at all anyways in that case. If pc's beat opponent, they successfully position ship for who ever is gunning to make a shot on their next turn. Think Force Awakens, and the maneuver ray uses so fin can take the shot when that turrent is down

For me, i would do opposed pilot checks, see if the pilot can get the ship into position to fire at all anyways in that case. If pc's beat opponent, they successfully position ship for who ever is gunning to make a shot on their next turn. Think Force Awakens, and the maneuver ray uses so fin can take the shot when that turrent is down

That would make Gain the Advantage action irrelevant.

For me, i would do opposed pilot checks, see if the pilot can get the ship into position to fire at all anyways in that case. If pc's beat opponent, they successfully position ship for who ever is gunning to make a shot on their next turn. Think Force Awakens, and the maneuver ray uses so fin can take the shot when that turrent is down

That would make Gain the Advantage action irrelevant.

Except an opposed piloting check is generally much more difficult to succeed on, as compared to a Gain the Advantage check.

This question highlights my big problem with the space combat rules as written. There is absolutely nothing the pilot of the YT-1300 can do to prevent the TIEs getting on their tail in this situation. If the TIES succeed at Gain The Advantage, the only way to shake them off is for the YT-1300 to use Gain The Advantage - except the YT-1300 is so slow it's not allowed to use that action. The pilot, no matter how skilled, can't do anything to make the TIEs roll harder, and once the TIEs have succeeded the pilot can't do anything to prevent them from sitting in the rear arc and blasting them to pieces. The YT-1300's only options are a hyperspace jump (if possible), surrender or death.

Or am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. Somewhat wrong in general (but potentially right in the specific encounter), the YT-1300 has speed 3, but the pilot could have the koiogran turn talent which allows him to negate GtA or the ship could be upgraded with an better Ion turbine to reach speed 4 or initiate a chase and use advantages from the pilot check and the environment to negate GtA or even knock the TIE-Fighters of course or into a collision.

Furthermore does the YT-1300 come with a ventral and a dorsal turret on default, meaning that there is no blind spot in the first place, even with GtA at least one turret will be able to fire at you. Still, just one turret is better than both turrets. Now in your scenario this is the perfect moment for the astromech to save the day and repair the turrets … or drop some cargo into the flight path of the casing TIE-Fighters. ;-)

Damage control and mechanic is a vulnerable ability in the heat of space combat.

So, I went ahead and underlined the really important parts of a good response to your question.

In open space, with no terrain or anything, and a 'pilot' with only ranks in Pilot: Space, your particular YT is a sitting duck. Nothing to be done about it, and that's as it should be.

But you're a great GM, right? (which is why you're here, that's not snark)

Space combat doesn't happen in a vacuum... it happens in confusing, dangerous, and interesting portions of space...

Space junkyards filled with rusting hulks and garbage, asteroid fields, epic battles between capital ships (which become terrain), even the traffic around a spaceport or a planet like Correllia...

and then the Skills and Talents of your epic pilot really get to shine, the speed of the Tie Fighter actually becomes a liability, and boom... you have a scene out of the movies, which is what this system is supposed to emulate.

You want tactical simulation? Play X-Wing. You want epic movie scene, you're in the right place... just read the chase rules until you really get it... that's what it's all about.

This scenario is going to be very specific but it may put to rest a problem/misunderstanding that I have with space combat.

The scenario is thus:

A yt-1300 is in combat with 2 tie fighters. The yt-1300's turrets are busted and can only fire in the forward arc. Common sense would tell me the the guys in the yt-1300 are totally screwed as the yt only has forward firing and would never be able to just whip around and shoot at the tie fighters. But i can't find a game mechanic that would prevent this very thing from happening.

What ends up happening is that the tie fighters and the yt-1300 just take turns shooting each other because they are both at close range. Because range seems to be the only requirement to determining whether or not a ship can fire despite there weapons that can only fire in certain arcs.

Can someone out there tell me what I am doing wrong here?

Thanks

Why and where are they fighting? What's the objective of the scenario?

For me, i would do opposed pilot checks, see if the pilot can get the ship into position to fire at all anyways in that case. If pc's beat opponent, they successfully position ship for who ever is gunning to make a shot on their next turn. Think Force Awakens, and the maneuver ray uses so fin can take the shot when that turrent is down

That would make Gain the Advantage action irrelevant.

The Core actually says this is an option.

It doesn't make GtA irrelevant, it only allows the arcs to be manipulated.

This decision isn't that hard to figure out. First off it's not GtA, so it doesn't totally cancel it out. Things like evasive action still apply. The difficulty, as Magnus pointed out is (usually) going to be lower with GtA, since it's based on the speed difference instead of the Ranks and Skill of the other pilot. Finally they kinda had to have a "GtA but not actually GtA" option on the books, because the way GtA works when you apply it both ways, a faster, multi-crewed ship would be able to eat the lunch of someone in a lesser craft. So like if you've got a slow ship with fixed guns, and the other guy is in something like a y-wing, the y-wing can just GtA and the pilot can hold it while the WO shoots and there'd be nothing you can do. Fun when you're in the Y-wing. Not fun when you're not.

This question highlights my big problem with the space combat rules as written. There is absolutely nothing the pilot of the YT-1300 can do to prevent the TIEs getting on their tail in this situation. If the TIES succeed at Gain The Advantage, the only way to shake them off is for the YT-1300 to use Gain The Advantage - except the YT-1300 is so slow it's not allowed to use that action. The pilot, no matter how skilled, can't do anything to make the TIEs roll harder, and once the TIEs have succeeded the pilot can't do anything to prevent them from sitting in the rear arc and blasting them to pieces. The YT-1300's only options are a hyperspace jump (if possible), surrender or death.

Or am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. Somewhat wrong in general (but potentially right in the specific encounter), the YT-1300 has speed 3, but the pilot could have the koiogran turn talent which allows him to negate GtA or the ship could be upgraded with an better Ion turbine to reach speed 4 or initiate a chase and use advantages from the pilot check and the environment to negate GtA or even knock the TIE-Fighters of course or into a collision.

Furthermore does the YT-1300 come with a ventral and a dorsal turret on default, meaning that there is no blind spot in the first place, even with GtA at least one turret will be able to fire at you. Still, just one turret is better than both turrets. Now in your scenario this is the perfect moment for the astromech to save the day and repair the turrets … or drop some cargo into the flight path of the casing TIE-Fighters. ;-)

Damage control and mechanic is a vulnerable ability in the heat of space combat.

So, I went ahead and underlined the really important parts of a good response to your question.

In open space, with no terrain or anything, and a 'pilot' with only ranks in Pilot: Space, your particular YT is a sitting duck. Nothing to be done about it, and that's as it should be.

But you're a great GM, right? (which is why you're here, that's not snark)

Space combat doesn't happen in a vacuum... it happens in confusing, dangerous, and interesting portions of space...

Space junkyards filled with rusting hulks and garbage, asteroid fields, epic battles between capital ships (which become terrain), even the traffic around a spaceport or a planet like Correllia...

and then the Skills and Talents of your epic pilot really get to shine, the speed of the Tie Fighter actually becomes a liability, and boom... you have a scene out of the movies, which is what this system is supposed to emulate.

You want tactical simulation? Play X-Wing. You want epic movie scene, you're in the right place... just read the chase rules until you really get it... that's what it's all about.

This is the problem. I simply don't agree that this is as it should be. I'm fine with the idea of a a character with the Pilot or Hotshot specialisations having talents that make them a harder target, but the idea that the Piloting should be irrelevant is utterly ridiculous. Are you seriously suggesting that someone with the Pilot specialisation who has Agility 1 and Piloting 0 should be a harder target than, say, a Smuggler/Gunslinger with Agility 6 and Piloting 5, just because the Pilot has access to a particular talent tree? Because that's where your argument takes us.

This is the problem. I simply don't agree that this is as it should be. I'm fine with the idea of a a character with the Pilot or Hotshot specialisations having talents that make them a harder target, but the idea that the Piloting should be irrelevant is utterly ridiculous. Are you seriously suggesting that someone with the Pilot specialisation who has Agility 1 and Piloting 0 should be a harder target than, say, a Smuggler/Gunslinger with Agility 6 and Piloting 5, just because the Pilot has access to a particular talent tree? Because that's where your argument takes us.

Not a Pilot with Agility 1 and Piloting 0, no. They wouldn’t be able to get enough talents to make up for their extreme deficiencies elsewhere. But they wouldn’t have to raise their Agility and Piloting scores by a great deal in order to be competitive with the Smuggler/Gunslinger with Agility 6 and Piloting 5.

And if the Pilot has comparable Agility and Piloting as compared to their opponent, who doesn’t have access to the Pilot talent tree, then absolutely — the talents are really what make you what you are. The attributes and skills are just the baseline that anyone can get.

This question highlights my big problem with the space combat rules as written. There is absolutely nothing the pilot of the YT-1300 can do to prevent the TIEs getting on their tail in this situation. If the TIES succeed at Gain The Advantage, the only way to shake them off is for the YT-1300 to use Gain The Advantage - except the YT-1300 is so slow it's not allowed to use that action. The pilot, no matter how skilled, can't do anything to make the TIEs roll harder, and once the TIEs have succeeded the pilot can't do anything to prevent them from sitting in the rear arc and blasting them to pieces. The YT-1300's only options are a hyperspace jump (if possible), surrender or death.

Or am I wrong?

You could just as well say that if the YT-1300 comes up against an Imperial Star Destroyer there's nothing it can do to destroy it - the YT-1300's only options are a hyperspace jump (if possible), surrender, death, or floating off with the trash...

This is the problem. I simply don't agree that this is as it should be. I'm fine with the idea of a a character with the Pilot or Hotshot specialisations having talents that make them a harder target, but the idea that the Piloting should be irrelevant is utterly ridiculous. Are you seriously suggesting that someone with the Pilot specialisation who has Agility 1 and Piloting 0 should be a harder target than, say, a Smuggler/Gunslinger with Agility 6 and Piloting 5, just because the Pilot has access to a particular talent tree? Because that's where your argument takes us.

Not a Pilot with Agility 1 and Piloting 0, no. They wouldn’t be able to get enough talents to make up for their extreme deficiencies elsewhere. But they wouldn’t have to raise their Agility and Piloting scores by a great deal in order to be competitive with the Smuggler/Gunslinger with Agility 6 and Piloting 5.

And if the Pilot has comparable Agility and Piloting as compared to their opponent, who doesn’t have access to the Pilot talent tree, then absolutely — the talents are really what make you what you are. The attributes and skills are just the baseline that anyone can get.

But in combat it's only the talents that matter, apparently. You get to be good at space combat purely by virtue of your choice of Specialisation, not your skill as a pilot. Talents should make you better, I've absolutely no problem with that - an Ace/Pilot should be better in a dogfight than someone who just knows how to fly, but with the rules as written, skill is worthless unless if your ship's not fast enough to use GtA and you're not in tight terrain.

I have the same problem with the melee rules - someone with Brawn 6 and Melee 5 is no harder to hit than someone with Brawn 1 and Melee 0, it's all about the talents.

This question highlights my big problem with the space combat rules as written. There is absolutely nothing the pilot of the YT-1300 can do to prevent the TIEs getting on their tail in this situation. If the TIES succeed at Gain The Advantage, the only way to shake them off is for the YT-1300 to use Gain The Advantage - except the YT-1300 is so slow it's not allowed to use that action. The pilot, no matter how skilled, can't do anything to make the TIEs roll harder, and once the TIEs have succeeded the pilot can't do anything to prevent them from sitting in the rear arc and blasting them to pieces. The YT-1300's only options are a hyperspace jump (if possible), surrender or death.

Or am I wrong?

You could just as well say that if the YT-1300 comes up against an Imperial Star Destroyer there's nothing it can do to destroy it - the YT-1300's only options are a hyperspace jump (if possible), surrender, death, or floating off with the trash...

We're not talking about a YT-1300 getting obliterated by the massed batteries of capital ship here. We're talking about the fact the the YT-1300 pilot, no matter how skillful they are, can't even try to shake the TIEs off their tail.

Yes but the problem you cite is a problem you are intentionally creating with those CHARGEN examples. In real life who's going to be a great pilot and not be a great pilot? I understand the rules mechanically allow it in the game, but intentionally building a character to not make sense isn't the rules fault. A PC is in charge of how their xp is allocated and there is no RPG that prevents someone from making a character that sucks, or is a walking oxymoron.

Yes but the problem you cite is a problem you are intentionally creating with those CHARGEN examples. In real life who's going to be a great pilot and not be a great pilot? I understand the rules mechanically allow it in the game, but intentionally building a character to not make sense isn't the rules fault. A PC is in charge of how their xp is allocated and there is no RPG that prevents someone from making a character that sucks, or is a walking oxymoron.

The examples I cited are extreme, certainly, but deliberately so. The problem exists even when a character has been deliberately created as a pilot - their skill is still hardly relevant, only their talents. With the same talent build, shouldn't a pilot with Agility 4, Piloting 4 have the edge over one with Agility 3, Piloting 2? I don't see how they will in the rules as written.

Read Brilliant Evasion.

Talents represent the real world application of natural attributes and training. If you choose to divest attributes, skills, and talents from one another in a strictly mathematical fashion and not relate them to one another the problem is created, but that's a meta game crunchy self created issue.

In real life who actually goes to the naval academy, joins the air wing, spends 5000 hours training as a fighter pilot, and then chooses to work as a cook? You're intentionally separating the three from one another and creating a problem mathematically that makes no sense narratively.

This question highlights my big problem with the space combat rules as written. There is absolutely nothing the pilot of the YT-1300 can do to prevent the TIEs getting on their tail in this situation. If the TIES succeed at Gain The Advantage, the only way to shake them off is for the YT-1300 to use Gain The Advantage - except the YT-1300 is so slow it's not allowed to use that action. The pilot, no matter how skilled, can't do anything to make the TIEs roll harder, and once the TIEs have succeeded the pilot can't do anything to prevent them from sitting in the rear arc and blasting them to pieces. The YT-1300's only options are a hyperspace jump (if possible), surrender or death.

Or am I wrong?

You could just as well say that if the YT-1300 comes up against an Imperial Star Destroyer there's nothing it can do to destroy it - the YT-1300's only options are a hyperspace jump (if possible), surrender, death, or floating off with the trash...

We're not talking about a YT-1300 getting obliterated by the massed batteries of capital ship here. We're talking about the fact the the YT-1300 pilot, no matter how skillful they are, can't even try to shake the TIEs off their tail.

That is plain wrong, because he certainly is allowed to initiate a chase. And he is allowed to spend his advantages and the environment to shake this TIE from his 6.

Besides, ever tried to shake an Arial Atom with a 8 ton truck? That is the TIE-Fighter vs YT-1300 comparison. Crazy enough that a skilled pilot actually CAN SHAKE that TIE-Fighter.

Yes but the problem you cite is a problem you are intentionally creating with those CHARGEN examples. In real life who's going to be a great pilot and not be a great pilot? I understand the rules mechanically allow it in the game, but intentionally building a character to not make sense isn't the rules fault. A PC is in charge of how their xp is allocated and there is no RPG that prevents someone from making a character that sucks, or is a walking oxymoron.

The examples I cited are extreme, certainly, but deliberately so. The problem exists even when a character has been deliberately created as a pilot - their skill is still hardly relevant, only their talents. With the same talent build, shouldn't a pilot with Agility 4, Piloting 4 have the edge over one with Agility 3, Piloting 2? I don't see how they will in the rules as written.

I am not sure what you are reading in the rules to suggest that the stronger pilot has no edge over the weaker pilot in this example. The stronger pilot will succeed more often on piloting and gunnery skill checks than the weaker pilot (presuming of course the same logic is followed in your example with regards to ranks in Gunnery).

This does not mean the stronger pilot will win **every** encounter with the weaker pilot, and that is how it should be.