See I don't see the problem though, it would be odd for a SD to not be moving at all, and it has weapons with long range. I mean hitting targets is based on silhouette and not range, so I don't see how needing to change range bands quickly is much of an issue when you can shoot across the typical 'battlefield'.

If you only have one on one capital ship fights, positioning is not so much of an issue. If you have a mix of small ships and capitals (especially silhouette 5 ones), then relative positioning, particularly around close-short-medium, becomes important.

'Ships start at 1/2 speed' would avoid the issue but it's a bit unsatisfying compared to the 'fly/drive lets you adjust your speed' change. It's like saying "This chair is uncomfortable so just don't sit on it". Great, but why have an uncomfortable chair in the first place.

Force & Destiny Core Book, pg. 237, section Capital Ship Combat:

"Similar to combat in small craft, capital ships can only perform one starship maneuver and one starship action (or two starship maneuvers) during their pilot's turn."

So, the generalized issue of 1 maneuver in larger ships (sil > 5) is for non-capital class ships. Like a single pilot in a huge ass ore hauler.

On the very next page...

A starship or vehicle with silhouette 5 or higher can

only benefit from one Pilot Only maneuver in a round.

I still don't get your point, if ships want to fight they're going to move to engagement range, if one is trying to get away then chase goes into effect. The rule simply means a big plodding capital ship is portrayed as taking more time to accelerate and move. If every scenario you run has ships commencing at zero speed this is an odd issue for sure in the rules. If you aren't rolling initiative when someone turns the ignition key, it's likely ships are all moving at some speed in most encounters when they begin and this is academic.

See I don't see the problem though, it would be odd for a SD to not be moving at all, and it has weapons with long range. I mean hitting targets is based on silhouette and not range, so I don't see how needing to change range bands quickly is much of an issue when you can shoot across the typical 'battlefield'.

If you only have one on one capital ship fights, positioning is not so much of an issue. If you have a mix of small ships and capitals (especially silhouette 5 ones), then relative positioning, particularly around close-short-medium, becomes important.

'Ships start at 1/2 speed' would avoid the issue but it's a bit unsatisfying compared to the 'fly/drive lets you adjust your speed' change. It's like saying "This chair is uncomfortable so just don't sit on it". Great, but why have an uncomfortable chair in the first place.

Force & Destiny Core Book, pg. 237, section Capital Ship Combat:

"Similar to combat in small craft, capital ships can only perform one starship maneuver and one starship action (or two starship maneuvers) during their pilot's turn."

So, the generalized issue of 1 maneuver in larger ships (sil > 5) is for non-capital class ships. Like a single pilot in a huge ass ore hauler.

On the very next page...

A starship or vehicle with silhouette 5 or higher can

only benefit from one Pilot Only maneuver in a round.

Yes, which I pointed out in my discussion. Capital class ships have more than 1 pilot and the rules say for Capital class ships that they do get 1 action and a maneuver or 2 maneuvers, which would allow for two Pilot only maneuvers regardless of what is said on the next page. The rule on the next page just says that bigger ships get 1 maneuver, but that seems to be based on having just 1 pilot, hence my example of a large ore hauler not getting 2 maneuvers.

See I don't see the problem though, it would be odd for a SD to not be moving at all, and it has weapons with long range. I mean hitting targets is based on silhouette and not range, so I don't see how needing to change range bands quickly is much of an issue when you can shoot across the typical 'battlefield'.

If you only have one on one capital ship fights, positioning is not so much of an issue. If you have a mix of small ships and capitals (especially silhouette 5 ones), then relative positioning, particularly around close-short-medium, becomes important.

'Ships start at 1/2 speed' would avoid the issue but it's a bit unsatisfying compared to the 'fly/drive lets you adjust your speed' change. It's like saying "This chair is uncomfortable so just don't sit on it". Great, but why have an uncomfortable chair in the first place.

Force & Destiny Core Book, pg. 237, section Capital Ship Combat:

"Similar to combat in small craft, capital ships can only perform one starship maneuver and one starship action (or two starship maneuvers) during their pilot's turn."

So, the generalized issue of 1 maneuver in larger ships (sil > 5) is for non-capital class ships. Like a single pilot in a huge ass ore hauler.

On the very next page...

A starship or vehicle with silhouette 5 or higher can

only benefit from one Pilot Only maneuver in a round.

Yes, which I pointed out in my discussion. Capital class ships have more than 1 pilot and the rules say for Capital class ships that they do get 1 action and a maneuver or 2 maneuvers, which would allow for two Pilot only maneuvers regardless of what is said on the next page. The rule on the next page just says that bigger ships get 1 maneuver, but that seems to be based on having just 1 pilot, hence my example of a large ore hauler not getting 2 maneuvers.

Well, no matter the size of the ship or its crew, you only have one man at the helm actually piloting it. The other bridge crew are doing other jobs. Thus the only one pilot only maneuver allowed.

Well, no matter the size of the ship or its crew, you only have one man at the helm actually piloting it. The other bridge crew are doing other jobs. Thus the only one pilot only maneuver allowed.

That depends on how you envision the controls. Could be one guy at a wheel and a gas pedal.

You could also imagine one guy for True Course navigation, one guy for Speed/Throttle, one guy for actual course plot, two guys for hazard detection, and three more guys calculating potential best course plots based on predicted need, a guy to hold the pilot's space beer, so on and so forth.

I find the most realistic way to deal with the problem is that accelerate/decelerate/punch it allows you to move at the adjusted speed normally without taking up an extra action/manuver.

Well, no matter the size of the ship or its crew, you only have one man at the helm actually piloting it. The other bridge crew are doing other jobs. Thus the only one pilot only maneuver allowed.

That depends on how you envision the controls. Could be one guy at a wheel and a gas pedal.

You could also imagine one guy for True Course navigation, one guy for Speed/Throttle, one guy for actual course plot, two guys for hazard detection, and three more guys calculating potential best course plots based on predicted need, a guy to hold the pilot's space beer, so on and so forth.

No matter the actual controls, even when you look at real naval capitol ships, you only have one helmsman. The helmsman is the one who actually pilots the ship; this includes steering and operating the throttle. The other bridge crew have different duties, such as navigation, radar/sensors, communications, fire control, etc.

Another solution would be to make accelerate and decelerate an engineer maneuver instead of a piloting one when it comes to capital ships.

All the throttle control on big ships does is send signal to engineering instructing them how to set the engine anyhow.

I still don't think the issue is an issue, I think it's that some thought you start at zero speed RAW and you don't. You can, but that would be more of the exception than the rule. It seems to me capital ships with long range weapons, in abundance, and any number of Gunners with Debilitating Shot, they don't need to be in any particular hurry.

I still don't think the issue is an issue, I think it's that some thought you start at zero speed RAW and you don't. You can, but that would be more of the exception than the rule. It seems to me capital ships with long range weapons, in abundance, and any number of Gunners with Debilitating Shot, they don't need to be in any particular hurry.

Nonetheless, it's counterintuitive and bugs me. To be honest, the super abstract nature of space combat, in this game, bugs me in general, though.

It's a little unclear what's a "starship maneuver" vs. a "pilot only maneuver". You could, I suppose, define "starship maneuvers" and "starship actions" as the actions and maneuvers listed in the vehicle combat chapter (around pages 245-246 in the Age of Rebellion CRB); the index seems to identify them as such, as well, since "maneuvers; starship and vehicle" points to that page, as does the equivalent "actions" entry. This would mean that "angle deflector shields" counts as a starship maneuver that isn't a Pilot Only maneuver.

That raises its own problems. If a vehicle can only benefit from one starship maneuver and one starship action (or two starship maneuvers), that would seem to severely limit what multiple-crew ships can do. After all, that would seem to imply that "Fly/Drive" and "Angle Deflector Shields" would be all a ship could do, so you couldn't do "Damage Control" or "Co-pilot" or what-have-you. Perhaps even shoot the guns (despite the fact that the game states that each gun can fire once, which would require multiple actions throughout the round).

Actually, I can't understand the distinction between a starship's actions/maneuvers and a characters. Characters each get their own set of actions and maneuvers, which can be used to engage with ship systems and repair the vessel, but the ship itself only gets one action and/or 1-2 maneuvers? What are a ship's maneuvers and actions? The book doesn't do much to help, stating:

"This is not an inherent quality of the ship, however; it's based on the pilot or captain's actions and starship maneuvers. Along with the pilot, each additional crew member aboard can use his actions and starship maneuvers to man weapons, operate sensors, move about the ship, and generally engage in combat along with the pilot."

If ship actions and maneuvers aren't an inherent quality of a capital ship, then why are they ship actions and maneuvers? If they're identified as "pilot or captain's actions and starship maneuvers" then those should be Pilot Only actions and maneuvers, right? If that's true, the "only benefit from 1 maneuver and 1 action (or two maneuvers)" seems to imply that the pilot/captain could do two Pilot Only maneuvers. It's definitely weird, and it invites confusion. However, I think the clearly stated "[a] starship or vehicle with silhouette 5 or higher can only benefit from one Pilot Only maneuver in a round" - while doing nothing to provide context or clarity for the wording in the Capital Ship Combat section - lays down a clear guideline.

To those saying "capital ships are a special brand of sil 5 vessels that follow different rules, laid out in Capital Ship Combat", I'd point out that the Capital Ship Combat section defines capital ships as "larger, capital-class starships of silhouette 5 or higher". There are no ships specifically identified as "capital-class", only a separation into hull types, such as "cruiser", "corvette", "battleship" and so on; since there is no stated distinction between "capital sil 5" and "non-capital sil 5", the statement in that section cannot be interpreted to mean "some sil 5 ships, identified as capital ships, follow different rules". Instead, it has to mean "sil 5 is the cutoff between 'regular ships' and 'capital ships'", which is supported by the limited maneuvers sil 5+ ships can perform and the additional attack (barrage) options. Sil 5 is just the cut off between capital and non-capital, and it's stated that Sil 5+ vehicles can only perform one Pilot Only maneuver - so, capital ships can only benefit from a single Pilot Only maneuver, no matter how much strain the pilot takes on.

There's also the argument that there can be more than one pilot, following the provision laid out for multi-pilot ships and Pilot Only maneuvers. This doesn't apply to capital ships, at least not by RAW as I can tell:

"A starship or vehicle with a silhouette between 1 and 4 can benefit from one Pilot Only maneuver per round, and can benefit from a second Pilot Only maneuver if it suffers two system strain (Pilot Only maneuvers are ones that affect the movement of the ship itself, and ships may only move so fast and so far). If the starship has a single pilot, the pilot must also suffer 2 strain (or downgrade his action to a maneuver) to perform two maneuvers, as per combat rules. Some ships can have multiple pilots, in which case each can perform a Pilot Only maneuver and only the ship suffers the strain. However, these ships are rare.

A starship or vehicle with silhouette 5 or higher can only benefit from one Pilot Only maneuver in a round."

Emphasis mine, of course.

The first paragraph lays out the guidelines under which a Sil 1-4 vehicle can utilize a second Pilot Only maneuver. It states that a ship benefits from one Pilot Only maneuver, and can take a second if it satisfies other conditions. These conditions are: 1) the ship takes 2 System Strain 2) the pilot takes 2 Strain or downgrades their action to a maneuver. In this case, a second pilot (so, not a third, fourth, etc.) can allow a vehicle to benefit from its second allowed Pilot Only maneuver - still suffering 2 System Strain as normal - without he pilot having to suffer 2 Strain or downgrade their action, as there is another Pilot to do the Pilot Only maneuvers and they can split the duty between them.

The second paragraph addresses ships of Sil 5+ and states that such vehicles can never benefit from as second Pilot Only maneuver. This might contradict the floppy, unclear wording earlier, in the Capital Ship Combat section, but I'd say "clear and direct" supersedes "requires interpretation", especially since that section was just a discussion on how events play out and the Maneuvers section is stated rules.

Not that this is really on topic, but I see the debate starting to play out and I hope this clarifies it before it eats up the whole thread (kind of like that holocron size back-and-forth thing going on in the Character Artwork Thread...).

Well, no matter the size of the ship or its crew, you only have one man at the helm actually piloting it. The other bridge crew are doing other jobs. Thus the only one pilot only maneuver allowed.

That depends on how you envision the controls. Could be one guy at a wheel and a gas pedal.

You could also imagine one guy for True Course navigation, one guy for Speed/Throttle, one guy for actual course plot, two guys for hazard detection, and three more guys calculating potential best course plots based on predicted need, a guy to hold the pilot's space beer, so on and so forth.

Can't speak to all of these, but those two guys doing hazard detection are using the Perception version of Plot Course or simply manning sensors and the three guys calculating potential best course plots based on predicted need are using the Computers version of Plot Course. The guy holding the space beer is clearly using Co-Pilot to free up the Pilot's hands.

I still don't think the issue is an issue, I think it's that some thought you start at zero speed RAW and you don't. You can, but that would be more of the exception than the rule. It seems to me capital ships with long range weapons, in abundance, and any number of Gunners with Debilitating Shot, they don't need to be in any particular hurry.

Nonetheless, it's counterintuitive and bugs me. To be honest, the super abstract nature of space combat, in this game, bugs me in general, though.

From what perspective? Looked at in the context of the source material it isn't I don't think. We see these plodding behemoths, never making any dramatic movements, seeming juggernauts, always portrayed traveling slowly in straight lines and battering one another with large numbers of guns. The smaller ships darting hither and yon amongst them nimbly with statements like "they're too fast for our turbo lasers".

I still don't think the issue is an issue, I think it's that some thought you start at zero speed RAW and you don't. You can, but that would be more of the exception than the rule. It seems to me capital ships with long range weapons, in abundance, and any number of Gunners with Debilitating Shot, they don't need to be in any particular hurry.

Nonetheless, it's counterintuitive and bugs me. To be honest, the super abstract nature of space combat, in this game, bugs me in general, though.

From what perspective? Looked at in the context of the source material it isn't I don't think. We see these plodding behemoths, never making any dramatic movements, seeming juggernauts, always portrayed traveling slowly in straight lines and battering one another with large numbers of guns. The smaller ships darting hither and yon amongst them nimbly with statements like "they're too fast for our turbo lasers".

Larger ships in Star Wars, while far from nimble, are extremely fast. Han Solo makes a point of saying the Falcon can outrun, not just fighters, but capital ships as well. Games like Tie Fighter made them slow, because having Star Destroyers chasing down fighters would seem odd from a gameplay perspective. Fighters are super nimble, but slower, at least in Star Wars.

Edit: just went back and rewatched the scene. He says the falcon can outrun the big starships, and not just the bulk cruisers, but the big correllian ones. Now, I'm not really sure what a big correllian cruiser would be but it does establish that it's something of a feat to outrun large imperial ships. The speed of fighters is somewhat irrelevant in this convo though, even if I am the one who brought them up, lol.

I still don't think the issue is an issue, I think it's that some thought you start at zero speed RAW and you don't. You can, but that would be more of the exception than the rule. It seems to me capital ships with long range weapons, in abundance, and any number of Gunners with Debilitating Shot, they don't need to be in any particular hurry.

Nonetheless, it's counterintuitive and bugs me. To be honest, the super abstract nature of space combat, in this game, bugs me in general, though.

From what perspective? Looked at in the context of the source material it isn't I don't think. We see these plodding behemoths, never making any dramatic movements, seeming juggernauts, always portrayed traveling slowly in straight lines and battering one another with large numbers of guns. The smaller ships darting hither and yon amongst them nimbly with statements like "they're too fast for our turbo lasers".

It's counterintuitive because acceleration means you are moving but in this system it doesn't. Even in a fighter, you can use both maneuvers to accelerate and end up not going anywhere, that bugs me. I do prefer games such as Starfleet Battles when it comes to capital ship combat though, where aspects such as speed, positioning, and weapon arcs are much more concrete.

And the rules are indexed to the third decimal place!

I still don't think the issue is an issue, I think it's that some thought you start at zero speed RAW and you don't. You can, but that would be more of the exception than the rule. It seems to me capital ships with long range weapons, in abundance, and any number of Gunners with Debilitating Shot, they don't need to be in any particular hurry.

Nonetheless, it's counterintuitive and bugs me. To be honest, the super abstract nature of space combat, in this game, bugs me in general, though.

From what perspective? Looked at in the context of the source material it isn't I don't think. We see these plodding behemoths, never making any dramatic movements, seeming juggernauts, always portrayed traveling slowly in straight lines and battering one another with large numbers of guns. The smaller ships darting hither and yon amongst them nimbly with statements like "they're too fast for our turbo lasers".

It's counterintuitive because acceleration means you are moving but in this system it doesn't. Even in a fighter, you can use both maneuvers to accelerate and end up not going anywhere, that bugs me. I do prefer games such as Starfleet Battles when it comes to capital ship combat though, where aspects such as speed, positioning, and weapon arcs are much more concrete.

And the rules are indexed to the third decimal place!

I was very happy when Starfleet Command came out on the PC, lol. Had a huge advantage online since I knew how the energy allocation system and weapon ranges worked.

When my group first started playing the game, we interpreted the "Fly/Drive" maneuver to indicate that you were moving but not doing anything else. Maneuvers like "Accelerate/Decelerate" granted the same benefit as "Fly/Drive," in addition to their RAW effects. Because the system is narrative, and ships would always be moving. So basically, "Fly/Drive" only got used when you didn't have a use for one of the other maneuvers.

It was only later that we discovered our error, after one of the developers mentioned it on Order 66 (not that I ever listen). But our "houserule" made more sense to us, so we just kept playing it that way. Might be worth considering for those whose suspension of disbelief is strained by RAW.

When my group first started playing the game, we interpreted the "Fly/Drive" maneuver to indicate that you were moving but not doing anything else. Maneuvers like "Accelerate/Decelerate" granted the same benefit as "Fly/Drive," in addition to their RAW effects. Because the system is narrative, and ships would always be moving. So basically, "Fly/Drive" only got used when you didn't have a use for one of the other maneuvers.

It was only later that we discovered our error, after one of the developers mentioned it on Order 66 (not that I ever listen). But our "houserule" made more sense to us, so we just kept playing it that way. Might be worth considering for those whose suspension of disbelief is strained by RAW.

That's pretty much what I did by folding a Speed change into Fly/Drive (and vehicles < Sil 5 can then take a second Accelerate/Decelerate maneuver if desired). My only other change is that I only allow Fly/Drive to be performed once per turn for any vehicle regardless of Sil.