But now imagine a long running open game where people play multiple times a week...

what-What-WHAT?

Very few people have this "no other responsibilities" type of lifestyle. Probably why nobody else shares your "concerns" about this. Consider yourself a pioneer, send us a message from Planet XP-5000 when you get there.

On a personal note, even if I could play more than once every two weeks, I wouldn't do it. There are too many other awesome things to do in life.

I feel that people should definitely give threads like these a chance before making any assumptions, and of course if the poster argues in good faith and is willing to concede points and provide specific examples, they should be treated with the same courtesy.

Oh, when I came in, I was pretty much just going to add "Eh, don't worry about it - the XP costs balance themselves out in the end" to the 2 cents pile, but when he started from a broken premise in the opening post and then unleashed the weapons grade stubbornness for six pages, well that's I thought "Ah, this is one of THOSE threads".

I refuse to coddle stupid.

Very few people have this "no other responsibilities" type of lifestyle. Probably why nobody else shares your "concerns" about this. Consider yourself a pioneer, send us a message from Planet XP-5000 when you get there.

Ah, the golden times of being a teenager where I could start gaming Friday night, have occasional naps and 'meal' breaks (Meal, of course being pizza rolls - maybe) and knock off sometime on Sunday.

I feel that people should definitely give threads like these a chance before making any assumptions, and of course if the poster argues in good faith and is willing to concede points and provide specific examples, they should be treated with the same courtesy.

Oh, when I came in, I was pretty much just going to add "Eh, don't worry about it - the XP costs balance themselves out in the end" to the 2 cents pile, but when he started from a broken premise in the opening post and then unleashed the weapons grade stubbornness for six pages, well that's I thought "Ah, this is one of THOSE threads".

I refuse to coddle stupid.

Sure, and in threads like these have at it. I just wanted to say that I've seen this response to threads and new posters that DON'T deserve it, and it makes me a little leery of having that approach in general.

Very few people have this "no other responsibilities" type of lifestyle. Probably why nobody else shares your "concerns" about this. Consider yourself a pioneer, send us a message from Planet XP-5000 when you get there.

Ah, the golden times of being a teenager where I could start gaming Friday night, have occasional naps and 'meal' breaks (Meal, of course being pizza rolls - maybe) and knock off sometime on Sunday.

College for me. It's a wonder I got any work done at all, Shadowrun was practically a way of life for me back then.

But now imagine a long running open game where people play multiple times a week...

what-What-WHAT?

Very few people have this "no other responsibilities" type of lifestyle. Probably why nobody else shares your "concerns" about this. Consider yourself a pioneer, send us a message from Planet XP-5000 when you get there.

On a personal note, even if I could play more than once every two weeks, I wouldn't do it. There are too many other awesome things to do in life.

To be honest, the games I run tend to be a bit freer with the XP, with session awards running anywhere from 15 XP for a "quiet' session where not a lot of excitement happened to up to 35 XP for big events, with the general average being 25 XP per session.

Granted, we only play once a week, and generally will play one campaign for anywhere from 4 to 8 weeks before said campaign hits a natural "break point" and we move over to either a different Star Wars campaign or to an entirely different system. So while I'm currently running a Force and Destiny game, I plan on wrapping the current story arc in a few weeks, after which we'll be switching over to Mutants & Masterminds 3e for a while, and then possibly a Dresden Files Accelerated mini-campaign after that, with the group trying to twist my arm into running a 7th Sea 2e campaign for them, as they all really love that system.

Honestly, Desslok, I sort of hate that "nothing is ever wrong with the system!" mentality because people who are new to a system can still have some pretty cool insights about that system.

I think what you describe though, in your post, isn't a nothing is every wrong with the system mentality but a that's not a real issue mentality. What tends to occur is that new folks see a problem that isn't real. That isn't to say that this system doesn't have problems. But it's rare that new people start threads that address them. Let's take your example thread as a point of reference. The problem in that thread wasn't the system. It was the playstyle. The OP in that thread was confusing his playstyle preference as an error for the system. This happens a lot with new people, playstyle preferences from other games are taken to be rules problems in this game. This isn't unique to this particular game of course. Almost all games have that problem when new people come around. I imagine the Star Trek forums will experience this problem once they release the new rules in 2017 and a whole bunch of people unfamiliar with Modiphuis style try to play Star Trek as FASA rules or other rules they are more used to.

But my observation has been that in most threads that you are thinking of the core issue revolves around playstyle problems and not system problems. This thread is basically a playstyle problem as opposed to a system problem thread. The OP is trying to make this system work for a style of play that it was clearly not designed for. Though that isn't his only problem.

But now imagine a long running open game where people play multiple times a week...

what-What-WHAT?

Very few people have this "no other responsibilities" type of lifestyle. Probably why nobody else shares your "concerns" about this. Consider yourself a pioneer, send us a message from Planet XP-5000 when you get there.

On a personal note, even if I could play more than once every two weeks, I wouldn't do it. There are too many other awesome things to do in life.

Yeah... multiple times a week for any extended period of time is so unlikely to be sustainable due to people's schedules(ie. everything else in life that comes up), not to mention the GM could simply decrease the xp gain(and probably should if they're really playing that often, since 20xp a session is fine but if you're playing 1-2 hour sessions 3 times a week... not so much. If you can really pull off 3-6 hour gaming sessions multiple times a week... "first world problems" would apply).

That's also not considering that even if you were playing multiple sessions a week(nevermind lasting a few hours on top of that), what group is going to be able to maintain that without PC's or even the GM eventually getting bored and wanting to do something else? Even if I could game more often, I certainly wouldn't want to stick to one campaign(or even system for that matter) for an extended period of time purely because I'd want to at least occasionally give something else a shot(even within the same system, that might mean a new character after a while).

This isn't even including the possibility of the GM narratively handling this hypothetical munchkin via an inquisitor with suppress, or simply chasing this group down with an interdictor(which properly statted WILL destroy or capture a party unless they've managed to take command of a capital ship fleet of their own somehow) due to becoming so powerful that they're a major threat to the empire(or whatever generally evil organization is in charge or attempting to come to power in the timeline for the campaign) as reported by the ISB, or any number of other possible ways to reign in such a character without resorting to "rocks fall, you die".

what-What-WHAT?

Very few people have this "no other responsibilities" type of lifestyle. Probably why nobody else shares your "concerns" about this. Consider yourself a pioneer, send us a message from Planet XP-5000 when you get there.

On a personal note, even if I could play more than once every two weeks, I wouldn't do it. There are too many other awesome things to do in life.

Did you seriously just make a post to talk down to people who organize weeknight games? Seriously, this board is toxic.

what-What-WHAT?

Very few people have this "no other responsibilities" type of lifestyle. Probably why nobody else shares your "concerns" about this. Consider yourself a pioneer, send us a message from Planet XP-5000 when you get there.

On a personal note, even if I could play more than once every two weeks, I wouldn't do it. There are too many other awesome things to do in life.

Did you seriously just make a post to talk down to people who organize weeknight games? Seriously, this board is toxic.

He didn't say anything about weeknight games(and neither has anyone else) let alone talking down to people who game on weeknights. Do you even read what you're responding to?

Also, if you're going to complain about forum users being toxic, that's funny when you're the one who basically posted a troll thread since you couldn't ever be bothered to answer a simple, and respectfully asked question but argued for weeks.

what-What-WHAT?

Very few people have this "no other responsibilities" type of lifestyle. Probably why nobody else shares your "concerns" about this. Consider yourself a pioneer, send us a message from Planet XP-5000 when you get there.

On a personal note, even if I could play more than once every two weeks, I wouldn't do it. There are too many other awesome things to do in life.

Did you seriously just make a post to talk down to people who organize weeknight games? Seriously, this board is toxic.

Toxic? Because people are tired of going in circles with you on this character that has infinite time and XP?

So your argument is the fact that you can roll force dice to add to successes on skill checks and that these get ridiculously unbalanced? Absolutely correct except for the fact you have options. First, while there is no roll requiring a discipline check to activate such a power does not mean there ISN'T a rule that says this. Depending on the situation of deceiving a Hutt was one example I saw earlier in this thread.

As I believe Donovan has first mentioned used the fluff of the situation. Unless this guy/girl has figured out some way to get an upper hand on a Hutt (without pissing the Hutt off) this should always be a challenge dice situation. Second, add in setback dice and I mean a ridiculous amount of setback dice. Why? First, negotiations with a Hutt the Hutt always feels superior. Second, more than likely it is happening on his turf. Third, add a setback die for every rival in the room in the employ of the Hutt. Fourth, add a setback die for every minion group in the room in the employ of the Hutt. Does the individual have understanding of Hutt physiology? No, another setback die or upgrade to the challenge die. Does the individual have previous dealing with Hutts or how Hutts operate on a psychological level? Setback die, or upgrade challenge die. Now why all these setback dice? A Hutt is a scary individual and a Hutt's Kajidic is even more frightening so most of the rivals and minions if they even THINK their boss is getting the short end of the stick is going to introduce the player to the business end of a blaster.

Is this a bit extreme? Sure but based on your repeated statements of HIGH power characters regardless if they are force or non should realize what Qui-Gon said in episode 1 "There is always a bigger fish."

I would apply multiple setback dice also because these characters sound like they are relying on the Force a great amount meaning they are not gaining Knowledge which is a tenant of the Jedi code and in fact multiple non-Jedi traditions. If all they do is wave their hand and things go their way then give them things that can't be affected by Force powers.

An example from my game: I play a Guardian Soretsu/Armor Master I fix ship things and I hit things with my lightsabers that what I made myself. I am only sitting at 300xp and a FR 2. We were on a space station and a experiment got loose. I being this guy who thought he was going to be the hero stood his ground and whacked this thing with his lightsaber. No effect with 4 successes and my crit activating (this was including enhance dedication so now down to FR1). I managed not to get my head knocked off my shoulders jumped back and tried Bind on the sucker to no effect again. Upon realizing my Forcer powers or weapon was going to do nothing to this critter I made my retreat.

Force Powers can be great and if used to ill effect an unbalancing thing in a game but they can also be softened and even countered. Walked into a trapped room with Cortosis walls and ysalarmi crawling around in the piping no force no lightsabers. For my character no problem as I could use mechanics to jury rig my way out. Probably most fun I had RPing my character cause I pretty much became a guy in shiny armor that could the whole time going "Holy bantha poodoo I been cut off from the Force!" either aloud or in my head.

Just my two cents though so take it with a grain of salt.

Toxic? Because people are tired of going in circles with you on this character that has infinite time and XP?

You can stop posting in this topic any time. I had already stopped posting here two weeks ago until you guys dredged it up again. Seems to me like you're just getting tired of not getting the last word.

Saying people must have no responsibilities or nothing better to do just because they play twice a week isn't even an argument, it's just being a jerk. I mean do you also give crap to people who spend two nights a week watching TV?

Toxic? Because people are tired of going in circles with you on this character that has infinite time and XP?

You can stop posting in this topic any time. I had already stopped posting here two weeks ago until you guys dredged it up again. Seems to me like you're just getting tired of not getting the last word.

Saying people must have no responsibilities or nothing better to do just because they play twice a week isn't even an argument, it's just being a jerk. I mean do you also give crap to people who spend two nights a week watching TV?

Well, since you won't give any actual xp figures as requested 20+ times or so, no one can do anything but assume you're talking about a campaign that runs 5 nights a week at 50xp a session. Yes, that would be ridiculous. Don't like the attitude everyone has? Then at least try participating in the discussion you started, and then refused to even set the goalpost before complaining about everyone else moving it.

BTW, you too can quit replying any time you want.

I've given multiple examples including XP numbers to attain them. It's just that nobody has actually addressed those posts in any meaningful way. Instead I get attacked for how often I play and people flat out lie about what I have and haven't said.

I've given multiple examples including XP numbers to attain them. It's just that nobody has actually addressed those posts in any meaningful way. Instead I get attacked for how often I play and people flat out lie about what I have and haven't said.

You were repeatedly asked about total earned XP for the supposedly overpowered character you referred to, and never gave it once. The only xp figures you gave were for one specific setup from a couple of spec trees that ignored the previously mentioned FR requirement. As I even mentioned when totaling up the absurd amounts of xp required for the things you've brought up, you cannot have your original FR6 social user actually get any use out of the Artisan/Outlaw Tech trees without spending another absurd amount of xp on dedication points for the int to use mechanics, and the agi to actually shoot the blaster you were referring to in post #101 and that still doesn't include xp spent on the skill rolls themselves to have anything other than 2 or 3 green dice on a roll.

Even if you were to roll a 252222 human(skill selections from career and race being mechanics, and ranged light and heavy), sentinel, artisan, and grab outlaw tech to get what you've mentioned, that still only has an FR of 1, requires resources of some sort to actually get the blaster and mods, only have YG as a roll to actually make any mechanics checks, and in anything that isn't agility based you get a whopping GG for every roll. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you aren't referring to simply a 110xp character based off of your previous complaints about discussing 500xp characters. This is why people need to know how much earned experience you are actually talking about. You have not stated that once.

The fact that you can come back to complain about people discussing something after you've refused to give anyone else the common courtesy of answering a simple question, and then claimed you've made a statement that you never did(nor can you quote such a post), makes me think you're a troll, or simply a habitual liar who can't handle being called out.

You know, there's actually something a little funny about this. I also saw your thread about Move and rules lawyering regarding using it to drop NPCs. In that thread when you were asked for specifics, references, etc. you gave them. Yet in this one, you don't have the decency to do the same?

This whole "How much XP does it take?" thing is irrelevant. It doesn't have anything to do with what I'm talking about, which is mundane and force abilities stacking together in ways that are more powerful than using only one of the two. You can look up how much XP that costs yourself, it has nothing to do with the argument, which is about potential. The only reason why long term XP plays into it is because the higher the force ratings and dedications involved get the more pronounced the effect becomes.

I'm sorry you think my decency should be in question because I can't pin down dozens of possible character builds to a single magic number.

It doesn't have anything to do with what I'm talking about, which is mundane and force abilities stacking together in ways that are more powerful than using only one of the two.

What you're talking about isn't an issue. Anybody creating such a one trick pony will be entirely too focused to be of much use. There are trade offs for such builds if you choose to go down that road. That is why no one except you sees this as an issue. If it was we would have heard about this before now. This is nothing more than a thought experiment. And an extremely edge one at that.

This whole "How much XP does it take?" thing is irrelevant. It doesn't have anything to do with what I'm talking about, which is mundane and force abilities stacking together in ways that are more powerful than using only one of the two. You can look up how much XP that costs yourself, it has nothing to do with the argument, which is about potential. The only reason why long term XP plays into it is because the higher the force ratings and dedications involved get the more pronounced the effect becomes.

I'm sorry you think my decency should be in question because I can't pin down dozens of possible character builds to a single magic number.

It's not irrelevant at all. You are complaining about force users at some undefined xp level being more powerful than non-force users. Because you refuse to define how much xp is involved, no one can make a comparison of a non-force user to see if the force user is or is not more powerful. Claiming that it's irrelevant is intellectually dishonest, and confirms my previous post about you being a liar or troll, since if it's so irrelevant why did you lie and claim you had defined it? Now you're talking about "dozens of character builds" when you haven't even defined a character build for the force using PC that you're complaining about, or anything else to compare it to.

You seem to be mad as if the entire world is against you, when perhaps the problem is just you? You're already known to be a liar, and who knows what else.

The only reason why long term XP plays into it is because the higher the force ratings and dedications involved get the more pronounced the effect becomes.

Well, we know that your hypothesis that a jedi at 600 points will overshadow a mundane at 600 points is utter bullshite since my engineer still is way more useful and versatile than the three jedi characters in the game.

So yeah, why don't you post a build that you deem broken, since clearly we're all too stupid to understand what you are saying.

Why don't you post your engineer who's way more useful and versatile than three Jedis and we'll see if that holds up.

Toxic? Because people are tired of going in circles with you on this character that has infinite time and XP?

You can stop posting in this topic any time. I had already stopped posting here two weeks ago until you guys dredged it up again. Seems to me like you're just getting tired of not getting the last word.

Saying people must have no responsibilities or nothing better to do just because they play twice a week isn't even an argument, it's just being a jerk. I mean do you also give crap to people who spend two nights a week watching TV?

To be fair no one said people in general. You've just taken this to be an attack against people in general when it really wasn't. Also, this is the first you've ever said that this game occurs twice a week. It took 7 pages and someone insulting you to get that bit of information out of you. All your previous post implied continuous daily play.

This whole "How much XP does it take?" thing is irrelevant. It doesn't have anything to do with what I'm talking about, which is mundane and force abilities stacking together in ways that are more powerful than using only one of the two. You can look up how much XP that costs yourself, it has nothing to do with the argument, which is about potential.

You would be wrong. For reasons that have already been listed.

I'm sorry you think my decency should be in question because I can't pin down dozens of possible character builds to a single magic number.

You can't even pin down one character build. No one is asking you for dozens of possible builds. We've asked for one character build for comparison. If you can't even build one character that actually proves your point then you are creating a make believe issue.

Why don't you post your engineer who's way more useful and versatile than three Jedis and we'll see if that holds up.

Since you've made the initial claim that it is broken and unbalanced you need to be the one to provide a character build.

Why don't you post your engineer who's way more useful and versatile than three Jedis and we'll see if that holds up.

That wasnt so hard, now was it?

660 earned experience, plus the 110 starting - and I have zero issues being overshadowed by the others.

I've showed you mine, lets see yours.

Since you've made the initial claim that it is broken and unbalanced you need to be the one to provide a character build.

I'm not the one who made a specific claim to have a character that's more useful and versatile than three Jedis put together.

The only thing I actually claimed in my initial post is that if you can add force ratings into a skill roll it's very easy for a Jedi character to end up rolling more dice on that skill than a non force user ever could. The only counter argument I got was "Yes, but that takes a huge amount of XP", which is true, but force ratings apply to every single skill that allows using them. Let alone the Enhance skill gives you 6 different skills that you can roll Force Dice on. Sure, if you count the amount of XP it takes to get your force ratings as an investment in Enhance it seems really expensive, but if you assume a Jedi build just gets force ratings anyways, and then spends the 40 or so XP it takes to buy those skills suddenly you're talking about hundreds of XP worth of rank and stat ups a mundane character would have to spend to make an equivalent roll.

To be fair, Aetrion did provide a character build back on page 6. He just chose to ignore that I built a comparable non-Force-using character to rebut his assertion that no such character was possible.

His argument basically reduces to the following theory. "Non-Force Users can do X, Force Users can do X + 1, therefore, Force Users > Non-Force Users." The problem with that is that in any actual play scenario there are a variety of confounding variables involved that makes such a direct comparison impossible.

Even if you compare character builds in isolation, this system makes it virtually impossible to build a character that is only good at one thing. A Sentinel Artisan/Outlaw Tech is really good at Mechanics checks and modding items, but it also has ancillary competencies with regards to scavenging, droids, and slicing. Meanwhile, a Technician Outlaw Tech/Mechanic is also really good at Mechanics checks and modding items, but in addition to ancillary capabilities with scavenging and droids, is better able to stand up to punishment in a fight and has some powerful mechanically themed narrative interventions. And the Engineer Mechanic/Scientist takes modding items, repairing ships, and standing up in a fight, and adds a research/knowledge emphasis. Right there you have three different characters, all focused on Mechanics, but also all having non-overlapping capabilities that stand out from each other. At that point, does anyone care who has the best dice pool for Mechanics checks?

Edit to add:

...if you assume a Jedi build just gets force ratings anyways...

This is a rather dangerous assumption to be making. If the Jedi wants to pick up lightsaber trees, they aren't getting Force Rating from those. And if they want some of the goodies that their non-Force-using counterparts get from their trees (such as Jury Rigged), they have to invest in trees that also do not have Force Rating.

I'm not the one who made a specific claim to have a character that's more useful and versatile than three Jedis put together.

No, your specific claim was that it was unbalanced and we asked you to prove it.

The only thing I actually claimed in my initial post is that if you can add force ratings into a skill roll it's very easy for a Jedi character to end up rolling more dice on that skill than a non force user ever could.

Except ..... you then also claimed .....

So, it isn't just the balance between force sensitive and non-force sensitive characters that completely breaks down, it's the force sensitive characters themselves that just fall apart because some of their aspects are subject to the skill and stat cap, and some of them aren't.

How do you get all that under control without just dropping a hard limit onto characters where you just say "Ok, this guy has too much XP, he breaks the game, make a new one"?

That's from your first post. So no .... you did not simply claim that Force users got more dice. You actually claimed that balance started to break down. And we asked you to prove it.

The only counter argument I got was "Yes, but that takes a huge amount of XP"

There were others but you've gotten very good at ignoring posts that refutes your claims.

but if you assume a Jedi build just gets force ratings anyways, and then spends the 40 or so XP it takes to buy those skills suddenly you're talking about hundreds of XP worth of rank and stat ups a mundane character would have to spend to make an equivalent roll.

Why would you just randomly assume that Force ratings go up anyways? And why would that assumption carry with it the need to ignore the xp cost of getting there?

Why don't you post your engineer who's way more useful and versatile than three Jedis and we'll see if that holds up.

That wasnt so hard, now was it?

660 earned experience, plus the 110 starting - and I have zero issues being overshadowed by the others.

I've showed you mine, lets see yours.

Well jeez, no wonder you're better than three Jedi put together... you've got two ranks in Brewmaster!