Ok, sure, it takes 190XP to have a rank of Jury Rigged, Tinkerer, Imbue and Intuitive Improvements on a character if you go Artisan/Outlaw Tech. These all stack on the same weapon. Let's say it costs 200 XP to account for the variable cost of specializations and picking up some other talents here or there, let's assume you spent your creation XP on stat points, and spent another 100 XP on skills and rounding out the character, so we'd be sitting at around 400-420 with 300 earned for that combination of skills on a well rounded character.

So how would you spend 200 XP to make a non-force sensitive crafter that can create comparably moddable weapons? You simply can't, and we're not even in crazy XP territory there.

The issue is that force sensitive characters can stack force talents and regular talents to attain a degree of specialization that isn't possible if you forego force talents. The exact point where these combinations happen isn't at issue, but simply whether or not they can happen.

Can this happen? Sure. Is it an issue? Yet to see it as one. For a couple of reasons.

• A Force sensitive that dips into specs that are not Force specs deprives himself of access to Force talents, especially the Force Rating talent. So there is a trade off for being so "specialized".
• A non-Force sensitive that can not access said Force talents will access other talents at similar XP levels. So while he may not be specialized to get stacking talents like said Force user, he may become much more proficient or talented than said Force user for having spent that XP in other areas.

If anything like this was a serious issue we would have seen examples of its affects on games before now. These are edge cases that will, in all likelihood, never become the problems that you percieve. And if they did they would be dealt with on a case by case basis. no great need to "fix" anything.

So how would you spend 200 XP to make a non-force sensitive crafter that can create comparably moddable weapons? You simply can't, and we're not even in crazy XP territory there.

Given the number of talent trees out there you probably can, but since I don't have all of the books to date (nor the time go through them if I did), I can't give you a specific talent-set.

However...

The problem with this question is that, with those sorts of talents generally being 'user only' - so you can't trick out the weapons of everyone in the group (and even if you could, there'd be a big price tag on it) - which means that what these talents effectively do is give you extra talent-equivalent effects via the modded weapon. In that regard, they have to be compared against anyone with the equivalent number of XP who has spent them on improving their performance with weapons.

In short, Mr. Jury Rig has a nice gun, sure - but he's competing with Mr. True Aim as much as he is with other Mr. Jury Rigs.

But now imagine a long running open game where people play multiple times a week, and you'll eventually get to the point where the person insisting that they don't want to use the force is looking at nothing but duplicate talents and more ranks in Solid Repairs, while the force user has a couple force ratings, is trained in Manipulate, allowing them to generate even triumphs on demand, has long since dipped into some none force trees and stacked Intuitive Improvements and Tinkerer, has their ranks in Jury Rig as well as Imbue, and so on.

I think this is the crux of the biscuit right here. The "problem" you have is a "problem" just about every gamer on these forums would love to have; namely nearly infinite time (yes, this is figure of speech!) to play your character. If your play style is multiple games per week, each several hours a week, you will obviously earn lots of XP really fast. To suggest is is a 'problem' that needs a fix is just... unfathomable to me. At some point you retire a character and start a new one. It would be easier under your play style than any other style out there. Or the option is to significantly slow down the XP progression in the open games you play. Certainly the suggestion of 5XP or so per hour of play breaks down when you are gaming as a part time job.

By way of comparison I **barely** get in 2 hours a week of gaming, and even that is more like 3 out of every 4 weeks. A day job, a 4th month old baby, and family time take priority over gaming, and yet I bet I am getting more gaming in than many of the folks that post and read these boards regularly.

If your issue is you "play too much and I advance too quickly" look for other ways to slow things down. But to complain the game system 'breaks down' at upper XP levels because of your gaming style just isn't an issue with game design, its an issue with how you play. There is nothing wrong with how you play, but you must adjust the system to your style, not the other way around.

Ok, sure, it takes 190XP to have a rank of Jury Rigged, Tinkerer, Imbue and Intuitive Improvements on a character if you go Artisan/Outlaw Tech. These all stack on the same weapon. Let's say it costs 200 XP to account for the variable cost of specializations and picking up some other talents here or there, let's assume you spent your creation XP on stat points, and spent another 100 XP on skills and rounding out the character, so we'd be sitting at around 400-420 with 300 earned for that combination of skills on a well rounded character.

So how would you spend 200 XP to make a non-force sensitive crafter that can create comparably moddable weapons? You simply can't, and we're not even in crazy XP territory there.

Droid Technician Droid Tech. 135 XP gets you two ranks of Eye for Detail, Reroute Processors to temporarily boost Intellect, and Dedication to increase it further. Buy Cyber Tech, Cyberneticist and another rank of Eye for Detail for 35 XP, putting you at 170. Backtrack to Droid Tech for Improved Speak Binary at 30 XP to round it out to 200 XP. If the Droid started at 5 Intellect (these are super-specialized characters after all), it now has 6 Intellect, 7 with Reroute Processors, and 5 ranks of Mechanics. When its monotask droid friend (which it built for only 300 credits) helps it out, it has a pool of 2G5Y2B and can convert up to three successes into advantages. Given the positioning of Dedication in the Sentinel's two specs and the fact that they have to spend 70 XP to get Mechanics up to 5 ranks, they're probably still stuck with whatever Intellect they started with (5 at most).

Now, Intuitive Improvements, it is true, potentially provides an additional hard point (maybe two once the Sentinel gets around to picking up additional Force Rating) that is not replicable by other means. The Technician, however, is going to generate more advantages by leaps and bounds, allowing it to generate schematics with ease to reduce crafting difficulties to nothing, at which point generating 9 or 10 advantages on a crafting roll is expected more often than not. And since the droid isn't relying on talents that are limited to one (personal) item, it applies its crafting genius to every weapon, armor, gadget, droid, and cybernetic it churns out for itself or its allies.

Even better, 55 XP more and the Droid has Unmatched Calibration. The Sentinel will find that neither of its available Signature Abilities will do nearly so much to help them with their crafting and mechanical prowess.

Ok, sure, it takes 190XP to have a rank of Jury Rigged, Tinkerer, Imbue and Intuitive Improvements on a character if you go Artisan/Outlaw Tech. These all stack on the same weapon. Let's say it costs 200 XP to account for the variable cost of specializations and picking up some other talents here or there, let's assume you spent your creation XP on stat points, and spent another 100 XP on skills and rounding out the character, so we'd be sitting at around 400-420 with 300 earned for that combination of skills on a well rounded character.

So how would you spend 200 XP to make a non-force sensitive crafter that can create comparably moddable weapons? You simply can't, and we're not even in crazy XP territory there.

Well sure they stack, but mostly the skills and talents are just redundant. I wonder why someone would want to stack these two Specs? They are different ways to be a techie character. Not sure there is much synergy stacking them. I could be missing something.

Jury Rig and Imbue do the same thing; in fact Jury Rig is a better in my mind because it is permanent and doesn't require committing a Force DIe and spending strain to use. 'Stacking' these two doesn't really get you much.

Tinkerer and Intuitive Improvements are again mostly the same thing, but Intuitive Improvement needs FR2 to be consistent, and no you can't just keep making Mechanic checks with it until you get the roll you like. It is one roll or bust. Sure these two can "stack", and having three extra hard points could be useful, but is it really that big of a deal? And you still gotta actual find something to do with those hard points. Of course you also now have a bogus weapon/armor that would be in PitA to lose.

Ok, sure, it takes 190XP to have a rank of Jury Rigged, Tinkerer, Imbue and Intuitive Improvements on a character if you go Artisan/Outlaw Tech. These all stack on the same weapon. Let's say it costs 200 XP to account for the variable cost of specializations and picking up some other talents here or there, let's assume you spent your creation XP on stat points, and spent another 100 XP on skills and rounding out the character, so we'd be sitting at around 400-420 with 300 earned for that combination of skills on a well rounded character.

So how would you spend 200 XP to make a non-force sensitive crafter that can create comparably moddable weapons? You simply can't, and we're not even in crazy XP territory there.

So now you're adding two extra specializations on top of the 3 required to hit the FR 6 that you were originally complaining about, bringing this xp total to almost 1000 to have a lower int chararcter(which isn't good for their mechanics rolls), that is effectively a 2 trick pony because their agi isn't going to be great either to actually do any shooting unless you went down the enhance tree to commit a force die to agi(more xp), and still need another 3-4 talent trees to boost their int and agi to higher numbers to actually make use of the talents from artisan/tinkerer AND still be able to have more than an average roll to shoot with, which still doesn't include xp spent on skills to get some yellow dice added to the mix.

So not only does this character need 700xp to get the FR to start with, they're going to need another 200 to dip partially into 2 additional specialization trees, and another 200 just to buy more specialization trees to get the additional dedication(so what, another 3-4 at 150-ish each?) so another 450-600xp, to be a reliable two trick pony that still actually relies on their weapon which can be dealt with narratively by a GM(and unfavorable rolls for the PC), that has yet to spend xp on ranged(heavy) so that's another 45-50... for a character that is going to keep force die committed on a regular basis which can have a negative impact on their strain recovery. So we're talking what, 1,750 or so xp and they're still so specialized that some droid minions at engaged range can pose a threat? Yes, 1,700-2,000xp PC's should be powerful. But if you're averaging 20xp a session and manage to game every week, we're talking about almost 2 years to even get to that point, and this is assuming they never spent xp on anything else along the way to make up for some of their deficiencies, so we're still talking about a munchkin that can strain themselves till they pass out pretty easily in an extended encounter and relies on gear that can be damaged, lost, destroyed, or possibly not even be able to carry it depending on the narrative circumstances.

This character isn't going to be rolling a human and end up with a super high presence, they're going to be a twi'lek or pantoran(which would gimp their willpower), so they take an additional hit right off the bat to skills or starting xp(which matters when you're trying to increase characteristics), and when your adventure requires you to infiltrate a city with a heavy imperial presence you're going to get some odd looks(due to not being human) carrying around a 2h blaster in the open that an amazing charm roll isn't going to resolve.

No, you didn't. Again you have been repeatedly asked to give an xp figure, and yet again you've ignored it. You can't complain about a goalpost with a hyperdrive when people have been asking you to set the goalpost at least a dozen times. No one can move a goalpost that you refuse to set.

The issue isn't how much XP it takes,

Actually, it is. If it takes 6000+ XP before someone can be considered to have picked up every possible upgrade to a certain skill that isn't the Force, it's a nonissue. 6000 XP is basically two years of nonstop play every day averaging 10 XP per session. That's an unbelievably bonkers pace that would have to be maintained longer than most once a week campaigns I've seen last.

A problem that almost never comes up except in very unique and specific circumstances isn't a problem with the system. It's a quirk of your group that might require a houserule, but that's about it. It's certainly not a "Force Users are unbalanced!" kind of deal if the level of XP required to even contemplate an imbalance is so high that 99% of groups will never reach it.

My experience so far has been that Jedi start off noticeably weaker than non-sensitives and droids, and only grow in power at a *very, very slightly* faster rate. They also tend to be much more narrowly focused than other characters, a trend that is only further exaggerated if they want to wield a lightsaber; they do really nice damage, true, but trying to use one without a bunch of cool talents blows pretty hard when compared to the combat efficiency of a humble blaster. While a Jedi PC strives for proficiency with the force, their lightsaber, and presumably at least some misc abilities to set them apart from every other would-be Jedi, non-sensitives are spending all that experience on practical concerns like pumping up multiple skills to high levels and progressing through their talent trees at a faster rate.

Also consider that Jedi don't need money and cool tech as much as non-sensitives because of their force abilities. This sounds like an unmitigated plus for the Jedi, and their powers can certainly be very advantageous, but it also means that they are double dipping into their experience points to expand their utility. Meanwhile, non-sensitives are deriving greater benefit from their money through the purchase of tools, weapons, armour etc that can provide all manner of advantages similar to or entirely apart from what force powers can offer at no XP cost. Jedi can benefit from most of this gear too, sure, but the incentives and rewards are fewer, and they tend to have less cash to acquire it with to boot.

Jedi are truly excellent when they hit their stride, and the longer, harder journey compared to a "normal" character has been very rewarding to roleplay so far for me, but the Force isn't "broken" or "unbalanced" in my experience.

No, you didn't. Again you have been repeatedly asked to give an xp figure, and yet again you've ignored it. You can't complain about a goalpost with a hyperdrive when people have been asking you to set the goalpost at least a dozen times. No one can move a goalpost that you refuse to set.

The issue isn't how much XP it takes,

Actually, it is. If it takes 6000+ XP before someone can be considered to have picked up every possible upgrade to a certain skill that isn't the Force, it's a nonissue. 6000 XP is basically two years of nonstop play every day averaging 10 XP per session. That's an unbelievably bonkers pace that would have to be maintained longer than most once a week campaigns I've seen last.

A problem that almost never comes up expect in very unique and specific circumstances isn't a problem, it's a quirk of your group that might require a houserule, but that's about it. It's certainly not a "Force Users are unbalanced!" kind of deal if the level of XP required to even contemplate an imbalance is so high that 99% of groups will never reach it.

Heck, a really imbalanced system would be something like most versions of D&D, where by level 8-10 most spellcasting characters have become capable of or are already well on their way to warping the fabric of reality as a demigod on a regular basis compared to say... the fighter who just swings his sword and hopes he can manage to get in an extra attack or two per round.

This thread is stupid. Any game engine will break down when the numbers get big enough. ANY engine. The most perfect RPG, handed down by an enlightened Gygax and play-tested by King Solomon will break at some point.

On the other hand, my game - three Jedi and an completely non-sensitive engineer, weighing in at about 600XP - my engineer is pulling off amazing stuff and running rings around all three combat gods. Utility belt, Bad Motivator, Inventive Creation - they can keep their force ratings. I'm destroying them in every aspect I can think of.

Also force rating of 6? Dear god man, do you know how much that'll cost? Do you know how awesome my engineer would be with that kind of XP?

So yeah - this thread is stupid and you should feel bad for yourself.

The problem with this question is that, with those sorts of talents generally being 'user only' - so you can't trick out the weapons of everyone in the group (and even if you could, there'd be a big price tag on it) - which means that what these talents effectively do is give you extra talent-equivalent effects via the modded weapon. In that regard, they have to be compared against anyone with the equivalent number of XP who has spent them on improving their performance with weapons.

In short, Mr. Jury Rig has a nice gun, sure - but he's competing with Mr. True Aim as much as he is with other Mr. Jury Rigs.

That's what ranks in Jury Rig are for, if you go after enough of them you can eventually mod everyone's weapon. Mechanics based characters can do a lot of cool stuff RP wise, and if you use the supplements with crafting rules they can create some absolutely amazing items.

Well sure they stack, but mostly the skills and talents are just redundant. I wonder why someone would want to stack these two Specs? They are different ways to be a techie character. Not sure there is much synergy stacking them. I could be missing something.

Tinkerer and Intuitive Improvements both add more hardpoints to items, and they stack, while simply having multiple ranks in Tinkerer does not, that just lets you upgrade more items. So there genuinely are talents that stack in ways that simply aren't available to non-froce characters.

There are some insanely good non-force talents like supreme armor master that are only in force classes. (At least as far as I know, is supreme armor master in any other spec tree than armorer?) You can theoretically get those on a non-force sensitive character, but it's obviously far from ideal to grab trees where half the stuff isn't usable and you're spending through talents you get no benefit from.

Armor Master/Commando is one hell of a combination though if you want a character who doesn't feel like dying. Once per round reduce a crit by 10*soak, ignore all crits of 1 entirely.

On the other hand, my game - three Jedi and an completely non-sensitive engineer, weighing in at about 600XP - my engineer is pulling off amazing stuff and running rings around all three combat gods. Utility belt, Bad Motivator, Inventive Creation - they can keep their force ratings. I'm destroying them in every aspect I can think of.

And he'd be pulling off even more amazing stuff if he had the 2 force dice you pick up pretty much automatically if you go down a force tree first and spent the 25 XP it takes to toss them into any mechanics check. A force die in a skill check is basically an extra yellow except it can't triumph and you can flip DPs after the roll to turn failures into successes. (And for 50 XP more you actually can use force dice to triumph when using manipulate)

And he'd be pulling off even more amazing stuff if he had the 2 force dice you pick up pretty much automatically if you go down a force tree first and spent the 25 XP it takes to toss them into any mechanics check.

Would you stop being stupid. XP are not an infinite resource. If I two force dice, I could boost my now weaker engineering skills. And if I had death stars for boobs, minion groups wouldn't be an issue now would they?

On the other hand, my game - three Jedi and an completely non-sensitive engineer, weighing in at about 600XP - my engineer is pulling off amazing stuff and running rings around all three combat gods. Utility belt, Bad Motivator, Inventive Creation - they can keep their force ratings. I'm destroying them in every aspect I can think of.

And he'd be pulling off even more amazing stuff if he had the 2 force dice you pick up pretty much automatically if you go down a force tree first and spent the 25 XP it takes to toss them into any mechanics check. A force die in a skill check is basically an extra yellow except it can't triumph. (And for 50 XP more you actually can use force dice to triumph when using manipulate)

Er...

First off, taking an F&D tree costs you. It limits your starting skills, and means that you have to pay extra XP buy the actual mechanics tree you want. Second, he wouldn't have have 2 Force Dice unless he spent the XP to GET to that point, which is 75 XP minimum. Then you add the 25 XP to THAT and...

Well, while you were doing that Desslock just...bought more engineering related talents and skills. He's also probably closer to picking up a dedication that'll boost his Int, raising not just his mechanics but also his knowledge skills in general.

So I go down Artisan to get my force rating, engineering skills and dedication. I've still spent all my points in an engineering tree, I still have all the relevant career skills, but I've acquired the ability to access a host of advancement options in engineering a non-force engineer can't ever make use of.

And you've just given up the crazy awesome Inventive Creation and the slightly less awesome Unmatched Calibration.

And you've just given up the crazy awesome Inventive Creation and the slightly less awesome Unmatched Calibration.

Let me try to predict the next argument:

"But a Force User could pick that up as well!"

With the reply being:

"Then they have to pay for that extra specialization and talent costs, XP which my non force user can use to pick up X, Y and Z."

What's funny is that we're even having this conversation, given that your character is in the 600xp range and Aetrion specifically said earlier in this very thread:

The topic very specifically is about how to stop force users from becoming too powerful in long running games. Any examples that show them as being balanced at lower XP are kind of irrelevant to my original point. This is specifically about what happens when characters start hitting the caps, not about what happens at 500XP.

I had taken this to mean he felt (like pretty much everyone else I've talked to who's played this system) that Force Users are pretty well balanced with non Force users at that level of play(and lower, and higher until you hit "the caps", which he still can't or won't define). Apparently not?

It's always fun, to see a new person come in with a house rule that fixes something about the engine that wasn't broken (breaking the engine in the process) and proclaim his rule as the Best Thing Ever, and then watch them dig in their heels and double down on their stupidity when the veterans of the game say "No, your rule is broken". It happens about every six months or so, and it's always great fun to watch.

This isn't so much that - this is more the EricB brand of stupidity, where a new person (or an alternate account) comes in and says that the game is flawed, gives reason X, Y and Z - and yet has clearly never actually played the game and are simply talking out of their arse.

And he'd be pulling off even more amazing stuff if he had the 2 force dice you pick up pretty much automatically if you go down a force tree first and spent the 25 XP it takes to toss them into any mechanics check. A force die in a skill check is basically an extra yellow except it can't triumph and you can flip DPs after the roll to turn failures into successes. (And for 50 XP more you actually can use force dice to triumph when using manipulate) he had 800 XP instead of 600 XP

Here you go Aetrion, I fixed that for you.

It's always fun, to see a new person come in with a house rule that fixes something about the engine that wasn't broken (breaking the engine in the process) and proclaim his rule as the Best Thing Ever, and then watch them dig in their heels and double down on their stupidity when the veterans of the game say "No, your rule is broken". It happens about every six months or so, and it's always great fun to watch.

This isn't so much that - this is more the EricB brand of stupidity, where a new person (or an alternate account) comes in and says that the game is flawed, gives reason X, Y and Z - and yet has clearly never actually played the game and are simply talking out of their arse.

Honestly, Desslok, I sort of hate that "nothing is ever wrong with the system!" mentality because people who are new to a system can still have some pretty cool insights about that system. And sometimes, I see those people kinda get slapped down despite raising some valid points. One that I saw a long time ago when I was still lurking was a post about how a guy didn't like that Attributes were the mechanically superior choice for XP at character creation and anyone who didn't take them were generally creating lower-powered characters. It was a valid complaint with no real solutions that I could think of (attributes being hard to improve being a core part of character advancement), but instead of veterans basically acknowledging the flaw and suggesting ways around it, it became a chorus of "Not a problem! Not a problem!" that basically chased a very articulate, calm, and logical (he would actually back up his arguments with specific examples, for one) poster off the forums.

I went into this thread with an open mind willing to be swayed by something that I had not yet personally encountered in the game, but could be a potential problem for other groups. As time wore on it because increasingly apparent that the OP was not going to give us the specific examples requested, but instead make vague generalizations and basically contradict himself instead. I feel that people should definitely give threads like these a chance before making any assumptions, and of course if the poster argues in good faith and is willing to concede points and provide specific examples, they should be treated with the same courtesy.

That's what ranks in Jury Rig are for, if you go after enough of them you can eventually mod everyone's weapon. Mechanics based characters can do a lot of cool stuff RP wise, and if you use the supplements with crafting rules they can create some absolutely amazing items.

And he'd be pulling off even more amazing stuff if he had the 2 force dice you pick up pretty much automatically if you go down a force tree first and spent the 25 XP it takes to toss them into any mechanics check. A force die in a skill check is basically an extra yellow except it can't triumph and you can flip DPs after the roll to turn failures into successes. (And for 50 XP more you actually can use force dice to triumph when using manipulate)

That's not how Jury Rigged works, though. It says you apply it to a personal weapon or armor, and explicitly says that the bonus "applies only so long as the character is using the item." If you Jury Rig a blaster rifle and hand it off, it loses that benefit.

As for applying Force dice to mechanics checks, that's certainly a nice ability, but it is also very limited. To get reliable benefits you have to flip destiny points to use off-color pips, and that means your crafting is limited by the number of available destiny points. If the GM doesn't want to enable your Force-based crafting, all they have to do is not flip them back, and if they do play along and flip them back, you have to contend with inconvenient Despairs cropping up in your checks. Considering how much crafting benefits from iterative designs to generate schematics, that is not a trivial drawback. That extra time needed to develop a simple difficulty template means it takes you longer to get to really phenomenal crafts, and your repertoire ends up being that much more limited.

No, you didn't. Again you have been repeatedly asked to give an xp figure, and yet again you've ignored it. You can't complain about a goalpost with a hyperdrive when people have been asking you to set the goalpost at least a dozen times. No one can move a goalpost that you refuse to set.

The issue isn't how much XP it takes,

Actually, it is. If it takes 6000+ XP before someone can be considered to have picked up every possible upgrade to a certain skill that isn't the Force, it's a nonissue. 6000 XP is basically two years of nonstop play every day averaging 10 XP per session. That's an unbelievably bonkers pace that would have to be maintained longer than most once a week campaigns I've seen last.

A problem that almost never comes up expect in very unique and specific circumstances isn't a problem, it's a quirk of your group that might require a houserule, but that's about it. It's certainly not a "Force Users are unbalanced!" kind of deal if the level of XP required to even contemplate an imbalance is so high that 99% of groups will never reach it.

Heck, a really imbalanced system would be something like most versions of D&D, where by level 8-10 most spellcasting characters have become capable of or are already well on their way to warping the fabric of reality as a demigod on a regular basis compared to say... the fighter who just swings his sword and hopes he can manage to get in an extra attack or two per round.

D&D 3.X and the existence of CoDzilla alone is proof of that.

"Hey, play a Druid and get a free 1st level Fighter!"

To say nothing of a Cleric being able to do everything a Fighter could do and generally do it better provided you did something other than play the party's heal-bot.

Yeah, FFG has done a pretty solid job of avoiding that sort of thing. And as those who've played the system for any length of time know, by the time you reach enough XP for the Force users to even begin to be seriously problematic, the rest of the PCs in a mixed group already have plenty of crazy stuff they can accomplish as well since they don't have to split their earned XP nearly as much as much as a Force user would be required to do.

It's always fun, to see a new person come in with a house rule that fixes something about the engine that wasn't broken (breaking the engine in the process) and proclaim his rule as the Best Thing Ever, and then watch them dig in their heels and double down on their stupidity when the veterans of the game say "No, your rule is broken". It happens about every six months or so, and it's always great fun to watch.

This isn't so much that - this is more the EricB brand of stupidity, where a new person (or an alternate account) comes in and says that the game is flawed, gives reason X, Y and Z - and yet has clearly never actually played the game and are simply talking out of their arse.

I've been seeing a fair chunk of this with the new edition of 7th Sea and how people are flipping tables over how allegedly "broken" a Duelist character (who admittedly is quite powerful) is in contrast to non-Duelist characters (especially when it comes to dealing with that system's version of minion groups), yet have never once sat down to actually play the game and ignore the costs that are required to become a Duelist; it's not unlike the costs involved with picking a FaD career in terms of skill points lost and usefulness of that one Force die as opposed to starting with an AoR or EotE career.

It's always fun, to see a new person come in with a house rule that fixes something about the engine that wasn't broken (breaking the engine in the process) and proclaim his rule as the Best Thing Ever, and then watch them dig in their heels and double down on their stupidity when the veterans of the game say "No, your rule is broken". It happens about every six months or so, and it's always great fun to watch.

This isn't so much that - this is more the EricB brand of stupidity, where a new person (or an alternate account) comes in and says that the game is flawed, gives reason X, Y and Z - and yet has clearly never actually played the game and are simply talking out of their arse.

I've been seeing a fair chunk of this with the new edition of 7th Sea and how people are flipping tables over how allegedly "broken" a Duelist character (who admittedly is quite powerful) is in contrast to non-Duelist characters (especially when it comes to dealing with that system's version of minion groups), yet have never once sat down to actually play the game and ignore the costs that are required to become a Duelist; it's not unlike the costs involved with picking a FaD career in terms of skill points lost and usefulness of that one Force die as opposed to starting with an AoR or EotE career.

I thought that screen name looked familiar.