Perhaps you could pick a specific xp level that you would consider "long-running", build a Force Sensitive character that you feel encapsulates this "all-powerful Force dice are greater than all" fear, and then let other contributors to the thread build non-Force sensitive characters that support their assertions that no, in fact, Force users are not overpowered in this system?

This.

I really feel there's not much to debate without a specific example. The assertion that the game balance between FS and non-FS characters breaks down at very high (but undefined) amounts of XP has been made, but no real examples have been provided. I honestly cannot think of a scenario where a FS character could "max out" a skill, because there's ALWAYS more Talents in another career that can not only boost that skill, but make it apply in ways that the Force won't give you. The idea that a FS can have all that and a ball of cheese is erroneous because the cheese costs extra.

_{I did some "number" crunching on this topic a little while back. To cut a very long story short, the analysis concluded that given equal experience:}

_{Force users:}

_{*Have a wider range of likely results i.e. lower minimum/high maximum possible rolls, which comes from the fact that Force die can be added to some checks. The balance comes due to the fluctuation in the possible results. This is because the Force die CAN roll poorly almost 50% of the time (dark side vs light side pips), costing strain to FORCE a result, hence resulting in the swing in the outcome.}

_{*Have an early advantage to boost some abilities e.g. brawn, agility (via Enhance) and presence (Influence), but this bonus is balanced due to the comment above. This comes at the cost of investing in proficiency points for key skills.}

_{Non-Force users:}

_{*Have a narrower range of likely results i.e. the rolls are more consistent, which results in a smaller pool to roll with. This is due to the fact that when you roll with proficiency, there are more successes and advantages per die than a Force die, and you don't have to burn strain to influence the result.}

_{*Having access to Triumphs is amazing. This is meant to make up for the smaller pool of dice being rolled compared to Force users. So while you may have lower ability scores than someone who invested in Enhance/Influence, you're more consistent with your dice results and have the potential for triumphs that would be an ADDITIONAL investment for a Force user.}

_Conclusion:

_{Force users roll more LOW QUALITY dice. Non-Force users roll less HIGH QUALITY dice.}

Actually Scathing Tirade with a few force dice is hardly overpowered. Try sitting down with the dice roller app and roll 5Y1G2W vs 2P and work out how many people you can hit. Remember the result is 1 succes affects 1 target 1 Advantage allows you to boost that damage by 1 per advantage on 1 target. So with the best roll in the world you get 12 from the normal dice and 4 from the force dice. So if you get a mix of 8 and 8 you could cause 2 strain on 8 targets or you could cause 9 on 1, with 1 on 7. If you roll 1 success and 15 advantage you could cause 16 strain on 1 target. Well, some news for you, aan autofire jury rigged monkey can cause this sort of damamge to wounds, very easily with a minimal spend.

While the last Scatging Tirade example can take out a reasonable nemesis it is hardly likely to get 15 advantage, it has been noted that a GM can rule that the target has to understand you, so try it on a rancor.

Edit bte it is easier to cause consistent high strain damage with the influence basic power and the strength upgrade. With 2 FR and you are doing between 4-8 strain dmg to one target

The issue with Scathing Tirade isn't how much damage it does, the problem is that it can be used as a maneuver, allowing you 3 activations in a single turn, and there is no defense against it, because you're only ever rolling against it's own difficulty of average. Even adversary rules don't apply because you pick the target after you make the check. It's not that it's an immensely strong power all by itself, it's that you can use it several times in the same turn and you can inflict serious strain on targets that are immensely difficult to hurt with all other means.

The reason why force dice are such a big deal to it is because as you pointed out, extra successes do relatively little, but force dice can be used to generate pure advantages. Every force die adds on average 0.67 advantages or successes to a roll, so throwing 6 of them gives you on average +4 successes or advantages to the roll.

I mean compare that to using Influence to inflict strain. For one, if the target isn't a pushover you have to make an opposed check to affect them at all, so if they have a good discipline rating there is a serious potential for failure and despair. And then you spend force pips at 1 pip for 2 strain, so with an average of 4 pips generated on 6 force dice that's 8 strain. You can't do it as a maneuver unless you use The Force Is My Ally, which is a session power, you have to beat an opposed check to make it stick which is much harder than a straight average check in most situations, and the damage you inflict is only significantly higher if you have an amazing force roll. Also you'll have to spend an extra force pip to target something beyond engaged range with it. The only real upside is that if you have several range upgrades you can push it past short.

There is a defense against Scathing Tirade--the Resolve talent. There are also counters such as having your ally spam Inspiring Rhetoric or even a suitably upgraded healing use of Heal/Harm.

The issue with Scathing Tirade isn't how much damage it does, the problem is that it can be used as a maneuver, allowing you 3 activations in a single turn, and there is no defense against it, because you're only ever rolling against it's own difficulty of average.

This is why you should read Far Horizons. This is exactly what they suggest you don't allow. To quote:

"If a PC relies too heavily on Scathing Tirade, certain tactics can help bring its use back under control...<snip, various tactical solutions>... Sometimes the target is simply unimpressed or becomes disinterested and inured to the PC's shouting and taunts after a few rounds. This may be represented by upgrading the difficulty of subsequent checks, or eventually making the NPC immune."

You're treating it like magic, a Star Wars version of the D&D spell Vicious Mockery. But it's not magic, its utility is dependent on the context, and NPCs should react to it like normal people. Sometimes the reaction to a mouthy opponent is the captain yelling "Shoot that bastard!", using whatever leadership skills he has to make it more effective.

I wouldn't allow a Scathing Tirade spam 3 times in a round unless the player came up with something so hilarious the entire table fell out of their chairs. The point of being able to do it as a maneuver isn't so you can spam, it's so you can still do something else as an action. If you allow the kind of misuse you're afraid of, then it's on you.

Actually Scathing Tirade with a few force dice is hardly overpowered. Try sitting down with the dice roller app and roll 5Y1G2W vs 2P and work out how many people you can hit. Remember the result is 1 succes affects 1 target 1 Advantage allows you to boost that damage by 1 per advantage on 1 target. So with the best roll in the world you get 12 from the normal dice and 4 from the force dice. So if you get a mix of 8 and 8 you could cause 2 strain on 8 targets or you could cause 9 on 1, with 1 on 7. If you roll 1 success and 15 advantage you could cause 16 strain on 1 target. Well, some news for you, aan autofire jury rigged monkey can cause this sort of damamge to wounds, very easily with a minimal spend.

While the last Scatging Tirade example can take out a reasonable nemesis it is hardly likely to get 15 advantage, it has been noted that a GM can rule that the target has to understand you, so try it on a rancor.

Edit bte it is easier to cause consistent high strain damage with the influence basic power and the strength upgrade. With 2 FR and you are doing between 4-8 strain dmg to one target

The issue with Scathing Tirade isn't how much damage it does, the problem is that it can be used as a maneuver, allowing you 3 activations in a single turn, and there is no defense against it, because you're only ever rolling against it's own difficulty of average. Even adversary rules don't apply because you pick the target after you make the check. It's not that it's an immensely strong power all by itself, it's that you can use it several times in the same turn and you can inflict serious strain on targets that are immensely difficult to hurt with all other means.

The reason why force dice are such a big deal to it is because as you pointed out, extra successes do relatively little, but force dice can be used to generate pure advantages. Every force die adds on average 0.67 advantages or successes to a roll, so throwing 6 of them gives you on average +4 successes or advantages to the roll.

I mean compare that to using Influence to inflict strain. For one, if the target isn't a pushover you have to make an opposed check to affect them at all, so if they have a good discipline rating there is a serious potential for failure and despair. And then you spend force pips at 1 pip for 2 strain, so with an average of 4 pips generated on 6 force dice that's 8 strain. You can't do it as a maneuver unless you use The Force Is My Ally, which is a session power, you have to beat an opposed check to make it stick which is much harder than a straight average check in most situations, and the damage you inflict is only significantly higher if you have an amazing force roll. Also you'll have to spend an extra force pip to target something beyond engaged range with it. The only real upside is that if you have several range upgrades you can push it past short.

Except now this FR6 character is having to spend another 80xp in a 4th tree pushing them closer to 800xp after the bulk of it was spent on having an amazing dice roll for charm, so they can use their YGGGGG+6 force dice to still be terrible at basically everything that a social check can't resolve. So again you have a character capable of tripping over their own two feet if they have to do anything in the game that isn't a social check(while still hoping they never have to use their own discipline since it'd only be YG).

Even if scathing tirade was used 3x in a round, the GM can still throw setback die at them pretty easily(due to the sound of battle no one can clearly hear you, could be an example) or upgrade the difficulty like whafrog said, and if red die end up in the mix a despair could mean "you've strained your vocal cords yelling so much" leaving this PC stuck relying on other rolls for the situation they're in leaving them horribly underpowered in comparison to frankly anyone else who has a broader set of skills and talents they've spent XP on.

Why don't you just indicate how much xp you're talking about these PC's having so someone can put together an example of a non force user(or even a force user that can do anything else) so people can point out the versatility that this specific PC(that is a serious munchkin) you're afraid of doesn't have?

Force users have the force.

Non force users have other abilities to use and train to use.

Really I'm trying to figure out how their unbalanced

Force users have the force.

Non force users have other abilities to use and train to use.

Really I'm trying to figure out how their unbalanced

Quite frankly, they're not.

But Aetrion seems stuck in a "Chicken Little Sky Is Falling!" mindset about how Force users are "too powerful!!!" in spite of the vast evidence to the contrary.

The topic very specifically is about how to stop force users from becoming too powerful in long running games. Any examples that show them as being balanced at lower XP are kind of irrelevant to my original point. This is specifically about what happens when characters start hitting the caps, not about what happens at 500XP.

The topic very specifically is about how to stop force users from becoming too powerful in long running games. Any examples that show them as being balanced at lower XP are kind of irrelevant to my original point. This is specifically about what happens when characters start hitting the caps, not about what happens at 500XP.

Can you please post a build/specific character options [with skill, attribute, and talent choices at a given xp level] that you would consider "hitting the caps" so that we have a frame of reference?

My players are only around 400 xp at this point, but many of the GMs and players here seem to have characters that have exceeded 1000 xp or more in play who do not seem to share your fears, so some specific examples can help us to answer your question.

The topic very specifically is about how to stop force users from becoming too powerful in long running games. Any examples that show them as being balanced at lower XP are kind of irrelevant to my original point. This is specifically about what happens when characters start hitting the caps, not about what happens at 500XP.

No one is talking about 500XP, the FR6 force user you're worried about is minimum 700XP and that's all of their XP thrown into just 1 or 2 dice rolls. The scathing tirade thing brings it up to almost 800XP.

Even still, you're forgetting that an NPC with suppress can basically negate those force dice anyway(not to mention that a GM shouldn't be throwing NPCs for the PCs to fight with that are only statted to go up against PCs with 2-300xp), plus a GM can simply throw something at this PC that they can't accomplish with a social skill roll and will be stuck with a YG or GG dice pool for. Any other PC that has 800-1000XP, force using or not, who has not rushed through 4 specialization trees just for one or two very specific skills/talents, will have far more utility across the board. What you're describing is a munchkin, and a munchkin can be dealt with.

What caps? What XP levels are you actually referring to? You keep mentioning a "cap" but keep leaving out how much XP that a PC would have at whatever that "cap" is. Without that you can't even define "lower level"(and your 6FR PC already negates your own point about this not being about 500XP characters anyway).

I have to agree with SJanson.

What is at the Caps for you is weak for me.

Any examples that show them as being balanced at lower XP are kind of irrelevant to my original point.

Well, every example you've provided as a problem has been shot down. You're welcome to try again of course...but you might also consider that the entire community is telling you it's not a problem. If it becomes a problem in your game, you're not GMing it properly.

At this point, given your repetitive insistence, but lack of specifics, I have to wonder if there isn't a little "T" verb going on...

The topic very specifically is about how to stop force users from becoming too powerful in long running games. Any examples that show them as being balanced at lower XP are kind of irrelevant to my original point. This is specifically about what happens when characters start hitting the caps, not about what happens at 500XP.

And every single scenario you've presented has been completely and utterly shot down.

At this point, I'm in agreement with whafrog.

What caps? What XP levels are you actually referring to? You keep mentioning a "cap" but keep leaving out how much XP that a PC would have at whatever that "cap" is. Without that you can't even define "lower level"(and your 6FR PC already negates your own point about this not being about 500XP characters anyway).

I'm talking about the fact that stats and skills cap out while force ratings do not and in many areas add on top of skills that cap out. A non force character eventually starts progressing sideways, while a force based character can theoretically progress linearly until they have every single force specialization. There is a power ceiling that force characters can get around, and just because it's pretty high up doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

What caps? What XP levels are you actually referring to? You keep mentioning a "cap" but keep leaving out how much XP that a PC would have at whatever that "cap" is. Without that you can't even define "lower level"(and your 6FR PC already negates your own point about this not being about 500XP characters anyway).

I'm talking about the fact that stats and skills cap out while force ratings do not and in many areas add on top of skills that cap out. A non force character eventually starts progressing sideways, while a force based character can theoretically progress linearly until they have every single force specialization. There is a power ceiling that force characters can get around, and just because it's pretty high up doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Can you show how this theoretical problem impacts actual play? Right now it looks about as worrisome as how much a Droid PC will outshine most other PCs after a few centuries of in-game time.

I agree it looks as though this is a theory-crafted problem rather than an actual in-game problem. Is this affecting your game? If it isn't actively causing an issue, I wouldn't worry about it.

What caps? What XP levels are you actually referring to? You keep mentioning a "cap" but keep leaving out how much XP that a PC would have at whatever that "cap" is. Without that you can't even define "lower level"(and your 6FR PC already negates your own point about this not being about 500XP characters anyway).

I'm talking about the fact that stats and skills cap out while force ratings do not and in many areas add on top of skills that cap out. A non force character eventually starts progressing sideways, while a force based character can theoretically progress linearly until they have every single force specialization. There is a power ceiling that force characters can get around, and just because it's pretty high up doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Ok, so once again you've responded to someone asking you to come up with an xp number so they can compare it with another character, and you've ignored it. I asked two questions, you ignored one(and still haven't explained this cap issue).

It sounds like you're imagining some problem that either doesn't exist(because as pointed out repeatedly, a force user can be easily negated in this game, not to mention the drawback of having such a specialized PC to begin with). If you can't bother to at least come up with an xp figure, you understand what people are going to assume you're doing, right?

What caps? What XP levels are you actually referring to? You keep mentioning a "cap" but keep leaving out how much XP that a PC would have at whatever that "cap" is. Without that you can't even define "lower level"(and your 6FR PC already negates your own point about this not being about 500XP characters anyway).

I'm talking about the fact that stats and skills cap out while force ratings do not and in many areas add on top of skills that cap out. A non force character eventually starts progressing sideways, while a force based character can theoretically progress linearly until they have every single force specialization. There is a power ceiling that force characters can get around, and just because it's pretty high up doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Yes you are correct, it is theoretically possible for a Force Using character to get a force rating in the 20's. But lets do some approximate math here:

The experience requirement to just have access to the specialization trees alone is well over 1000 XP. This is to say nothing of the cost to actually buy those Force Rating increases which are almost always 25XP, with a few 20XP stragglers in there. So somewhere in the neighborhood of 500+ XP just in force rating increases, and this does not include all the talents you have to buy along the way. Lets not forget we need some Force Talents to actually use that 20 FR, so there is more XP spent. All in all you're probably getting into the 3000+ XP range. Let's hope you remembered to put some skill ranks into perception or vigilance on your quest to be the Greatest Force User Ever. It'd be a crying shame if the bounty hunter assassin with lots of ranks in Lethal Blows who is at long range hits you with his heavily modified disrupter rifle and ends your day, especially when he shares he only has about 1/10 the XP you do.

When you get to the point that you are running out of places to spend your XP, its time to start a new campaign with new characters.

I'm talking about the fact that stats and skills cap out while force ratings do not and in many areas add on top of skills that cap out. A non force character eventually starts progressing sideways, while a force based character can theoretically progress linearly until they have every single force specialization. There is a power ceiling that force characters can get around, and just because it's pretty high up doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

But here's the thing: A character with max skill ranks and characteristics is by no means "capped out." There are any number of talents that can further enhance their ability in that sphere, as has been covered, but there's also the fact that most archetypes have important sub-focuses that require their own investments. A Charmer who's maxed out their Presence and Charm ranks probably also wants to be able to lie effectively, pushing them to boost Cunning and Deception while still maintaining their central focus on being Talky McTalkerson (of the Alderaan McTalkersons). The ranged combat specialist who maxes out Agility and Ranged: Light probably wants to be better at melee combat and taking hits for those situations where they are forced into close quarters or denied the use of their weapon, pushing them towards Brawn and Brawl/Melee (and vice versa for the melee specialist). All of which leads to diversified investments of XP that the Force user has to forgo in order to build up their FR. By the time the Force Diplomancer is rolling 5Y1G6F on their Charm rolls, the Diplomat's rocking Charm and Deception and maybe even Coercion for good measure, which, in my book, makes them a much better social-focused character than the Charm Master.

Frankly, there's also a point where extra capability beyond the "cap" doesn't matter. Difficulties in this system cap out at five dice plus setback (which can be reduced by talents), and 5Y1G is more than sufficient to pass that. Furthermore, there's a point where the GM doesn't care if you got 5 advantage or 15 on your successful roll, because there's a limit to how many add on benefits the narrative will allow regardless of how good your dice are, and so that extra capability gets wasted.

Besides, if you want to talk about theoretical problems that might show up eventually, over a long enough timespan, every character, Force user or no, gets extremely good at everything as they max out all their skills and characteristics, so clearly we're looking at the wrong problem.

And BTW, my statements above about how useless such an overly specialized force using face character would be, are based off of what I've seen while playing one(not quite that specialized). Even at only around 300 earned xp and a lot of focus on social skills(and FR3 so far), I've still had to spend some of that xp on sense, influence(besides just the upgrade that adds force dice to social rolls), enhance because my GM does indeed throw things like having to chase down an NPC on foot through a swamp, and I've still had to do quite a bit of shooting, managed to avoid having to use piloting - planetary so far for speeders, we split the party while running through a cave so PCs with a brawn of 1 wouldn't get strained out trying to keep up(and it actually turned out just fine), and it's not like I have xp spent in deception or skullduggery because we have a 2nd guy who is more suited for that(I also didn't go 122226, I actually went 123234 for my initial characteristics).

Having played with the character generator going so far as to stat out my character out to 1500xp, he's still not going to be amazing at everything(still severely lacking in some things), and I'm already well aware of how our GM can put a stop to me attempting to beat every encounter with social checks(and even at this point with a charm roll of YYGGBFFF, it still seems like it barely works more than half the time due to bad luck with rolls). But that's fine, because I didn't want to roll a human to eventually end up as 333333 by the name of Captain Average, other PCs within the party pick up the slack in whatever their character happens to be based on.

Personally, my concern wouldn't be about some theoretical force user and non-force guy with thousands of XP each competing in their niches. OTOH, what about what happens if say the Force Using Sage and say the non-force Charmer are both sick of failing Athletics checks involved in their space adventures with their 1 Brawn races. It's Star Wars, it seems like everyone ends up running around, climbing on stuff, jumping from vehicles, etc right? It seems like even at FR 2 or 3, a few Force Dice being added to physical checks from Enhance are going to be more effective at keeping the character from sucking at basic 'space hero' type stuff than adding a few skill ranks to a 1 stat.

For example, 15 XP buys Enhance and lets it work on Athletics and Resilience, so our Brawn 1 character who is partially through Sage has a G and 2FD to jump and not get poisoned. OTOH, 15 XP buys 2 ranks in class skills, or one and a half ranks in non career skills. Going from a G to Y against 2 difficulty is not exactly the biggest improvement, and putting 2 ranks into Athletics leaves our Twilek with like a 50% chance to succeed. Versus the Force user who has a 23% chance before Enhance, can always get at least 2 successes with strain and a flip (and has more than a 50/50 of getting +2 without needing to flip). That seems strictly in the Force User's favor, and they covered Resilience too, and this required that the other guy had Athletics as a class skill to boot.

And the same thing applies to say the presence 1 bruiser character who wants to develop some social skills besides intimidation. Buying influence up to the mind trick and dice adder control upgrades is not exactly cheap, but it seems like a hell of lot more bang for your buck than buying skill ranks which probably aren't starting out as career skills. The skill control for Influence covers 5 skills which are spread over 3 different stats even. Getting some base line competency in all those skills would be considerably more expensive for a non-force guy.

Force using or no, characters with high stats and skills and numerous complementary talents will be pretty good against a lot of the difficulties the game uses. OTOH, outside of those strong points, it seems like the Force Sensitive can pick up decent skill levels or equivalent powers with far greater efficiency than normal talents and skills because they can essentially turn a stat that was kind of useful anyway and which they already possessed (up to a point) into something that will help, versus needing to build up multiple ranks on 1 or 2 green dice from a stat, and may need to buy another spec to get them as career skills. Covering a broad base of skills seems way easier for a Force guy even without needing to get to FR6 or something crazy (and vaguely overkill-ish), because even a couple of dice from FR get you to a point of non-sucking.

Force users do get a slight edge in that they have the option to flip a destiny point to turn a near-failure into a success after seeing the roll, as opposed to the non-force user who has to decide ahead of time if they want to boost their odds with a destiny flip. Bear in mind, though, that force dice are unreliable, and you have to spend a point of strain per off-color pip you want to use in addition to the destiny flip. I can say from experience that with 2 or even 3 FR, you will find yourself having to choose between flipping and straining or losing the benefit of your dice frequently, and there's only so much of either resource you can afford to use.

Keep in mind also that Force Rating talents aren't cheap. That FR 2 cost the force user 20 or 25 XP (plus two starting skill ranks from being a F&D career, so 10-20 XP there) in addition to the 20 XP to get Enhance + Athletics + Resilience. Meanwhile, for 15 XP the Charmer can pick up Works Like a Charm, which gives them the flexibility of using Presence for their Athletics check, or any other skill check, once per session, giving them their own measure of flexibility. You might argue that Force Rating can be applied much more broadly, but Force Rating does absolutely nothing in and of itself. An FR 3 character with no force powers and no force talents can't use their rating for anything, and all of those things to use it with cost XP themselves. That Sage isn't going to be starting from the same place as the Charmer, even if they have the same characteristics, because there's a whole 'nother set of options and opportunity costs involved. Focusing on a narrow band of character capability by saying "these two characters have the same characteristics and skill ranks for this action, but the Force user also has this," is always going to present a skewed picture, because the "this" always cost something that the non-user spent on something else.

I find that some of the other Destiny-powered talents are just as attractive for non-Force-users. Where I've seen it become an issue is when the group eat through the DP pool so fast that there is nothing for the Force-user to flip when he needs to use those dark side pips. The GM is encouraged to keep using the points too, but he's not required to do so on every roll, and I've seen my PCs go through 4+ DPs in a turn.

The topic very specifically is about how to stop force users from becoming too powerful in long running games. Any examples that show them as being balanced at lower XP are kind of irrelevant to my original point. This is specifically about what happens when characters start hitting the caps, not about what happens at 500XP.

Not trying to pile on here but I think you are looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist in this system. In the old WEG and the newer d20 and SAGA RPGs there absolutely were issues of Force Users over powering other classes but the way things are done in FFG's system it's just not an issue. It may seem it sometimes with very specific types of Actions but all the Careers have their nova moments.

The way to handle any Career's, including Force Users, power curve is to stick to the RAW and keep your challenges across a broad set of Skills and types of Encounters. If your PCs are combat monsters throw mission critical Skill based challenges at them, vary up the Combat encounters by placing them in situations that depress or negate their primary abilities once and a while.

Most of the difficulty I've seen with this system is caused by the GM forgetting, misreading or misinterpreting a rule early on and not correcting it in future sessions after you realize the mistake. Another is hand waving or House Ruling seemingly insignificant rules that help balance PCs (Encumbrance is one, letting PCs carry all the things all the time is not RAI, treating Social Skills like magic spells is another). And using the Rule of Cool so often that the actual RAW loses it's punch and expectations get out of hand. Also making arbitrary and inconsistent calls at the table is a game killer. These are the real problems that GMs and Players are going to face that could lead to not enjoying the system, not hypothetical Force Users that are essentially mega Yoda brains in a jar.

Study and play the RAW to the best of your ability and see how it goes, if you run into issues then make adjustment after you experience them not before.