The two really big things I like about this system is that you can advance your character for a long time without running out of places to go, and that you can create a huge variety of characters and run mixed games. However, when you mix long term advancement and mixed systems you run into a problem: Force sensitive characters have practically no restrictions to how powerful they can become at any given thing, while non force sensitive characters have extreme restrictions.

You can throw force dice at a huge number of skills in the game. Social checks, athletics, coordination, brawl, piloting, gunnery, ranged, now mechanics... With the right combination of force powers and talents there are very few skills that you can't just roll force dice for.

So pretty much all of those skills are simply broken in a mixed game. A regular character can develop them to 5Y1G, which is a pretty major undertaking, and only affects one single skill. A force sensitive character on the other hand can add any number of force dice they unlock to the skill roll, which means there is essentially no limit to how many dice they can throw at a check. Not only that, but for a lot of checks unlocking the ability to roll force dice on them only takes 20, 30 XP in this or that force power, and after that your force rating simply takes over. You don't need to develop anything other than force rating to confidently attempt even formidable checks with skills you'd otherwise only roll 2G for.

It seems to become a problem when you let people develop their character for a long time. One of the main things I like about this game is that it doesn't have a level cap where you should really just stop playing and make a new character. On a non-force character you can always start developing sideways, and pick up new roles that fit how your character evolves. On a force sensitive character on the other hand there is always more force ratings, and all of them add into a huge number of skills. You inevitably break the game just because FFG didn't put a cap on force rating. Even if force rating was capped at 6 like other characteristics your character would easily exceed any non-force character at just about anything you can throw force dice at.

Ironically, the one thing where force users max out is actually using force powers. All aggressive powers are subject to an opposed check against powerful enemies, and your discipline caps out since you can't roll force dice on discipline. You don't need a dozen force dice to activate powers. That just leads to some seriously weird stuff though. For example, if you tried to use a mind trick on a Hutt you'd roll an opposed check against the Hutt's discipline, and then throw your giant force pool while only needing to generate two or three points to activate the power. The chance of failing this is pretty high. On the other hand, if you simply flat out lied to the Hutt and rolled your Deception+Force against his Discipline you'd easily beat him every time.

Likewise if you wanted to shoot people with lightning or throw things at them you'd end up making opposed discipline checks which can be very hard to do depending on the target. On the other hand if you just get yourself Intuitive Shot you can roll your entire force pool as part of a ranged attack, so you can generate ranged attack results that are beyond absurd, and still only roll easy checks at close range.

So, it isn't just the balance between force sensitive and non-force sensitive characters that completely breaks down, it's the force sensitive characters themselves that just fall apart because some of their aspects are subject to the skill and stat cap, and some of them aren't.

How do you get all that under control without just dropping a hard limit onto characters where you just say "Ok, this guy has too much XP, he breaks the game, make a new one"?

You really don't have to worry, as the game was designed to avert the "Force users rule the roost!" scenario that's plagued many of the prior Star Wars RPGs.

Just remember, for all the XP that a Force user has been sinking into their Force powers, that's XP that the other PCs have been investing in talents and skills. Most Force users aren't going to have very many non-essential skills that are above 2 ranks, while the muggles in the party are likely to have several skills that are 3 ranks or more.

There's also the matter of using the setting fluff help enforce game balance. If your game is set during the time frame when the Empire is in control of the galaxy, then getting outed as a Force user (or worse yet, an actual Jedi!) is a very bad thing, as the Empire has a zero-tolerance policy for Force users that aren't working for them. This gets especially worrisome in the time prior to the Battle of Yavin, as there really isn't a large, organized Rebel Alliance that the PCs could fall back on for help, leaving them very much on their own, not unlike the crew of the Ghost in early seasons of SW:Rebels. Yes, Kanan got brash in the series opener and revealed himself as a Jedi, which in turn drew the attention of the Grand Inquisitor, who proved to be a very formidable foe for much of the season.

Plus, Force dice can be notoriously unreliable, especially if you've got a PC that's reticent to draw too much upon dark side pips; I've got a PC in my FaD game that's at Force Rating 3, and far more often than not she rolls straight dark side pips when trying to do stuff with the Force.

The only real point of concern IMHO are the PCs who are packing lightsabers, but again you simply need to use the setting to enforce balance in the game. Don't do this all the time, but place those PCs in situations were drawing a lightsaber is going to draw all sorts of attention. Consider ANH, where not long after Kenobi drew his lightsaber to deal with those two thugs that were harassing Luke, Imperial stormtroopers showed up to investigate, and the barkeep was very quick to point in the direction where the old Jedi and his young traveling companion had wandered off to. Encounters set in public places, especially as you get further and further from the Outer Rim, are going to have witnesses that more often than not have bought into the Empire's propaganda about the Jedi Order being responsible for the corruption of the Senate and the masterminds behind the destructive Clone Wars, so people that generally don't have much love for the Empire will be surprisingly quick to contact their local Imperial informant with details about this subversive Jedi terrorist.

Well, the balance is pretty solid at lower XP ranges, but when you get to the point where having force ratings above 6 is near inevitable it gets a little ridiculous. Any skill you can throw force dice at just never caps out. You can always just get more force rating.

I feel like not having a cap on force rating flat out breaks the game if you let people play characters beyond a few hundred XP gained. I've seen several people got Seer/Sage and get FR5 before they even have 300 earned XP.

How do you get all that under control without just dropping a hard limit onto characters where you just say "Ok, this guy has too much XP, he breaks the game, make a new one"?

DM has it right about the balance between Force Users and Non-FUs built into the system, this is probably the best of all the Star Wars RPG iterations in this respect. The system has it's issues but not in this respect . Force Users will seem powerful in some respects, especially with Force Move and their glowsticks in Combat, but other combat careers with the right equipment are equally, if not more devastating. The way to deal with it is to make sure you keep your adventures balanced between ranged and melee combat and give plenty of opportunities to use other, non-combat Skills.

The system itself though does get a bit wonky at higher EXP when all the PCs have gotten close to maxing out their primary Skills, Talent Trees, and Powers, not bad just a little challenging to build encounters for because they're all pretty bada$$

My advice is use all the RAW, don't forget Encumbrance, and keep the Rule of Cool down to a minimum until later in your campaign. Give out EXP often but is lower amounts, the RAW advises 5 EXP per hour of play but I generally cap it at 15-20 per session + another 10 or so at the end of a "Chapter". I've found that my Players appreciated each advance in their PC more than when I gave out more, YMMV.

Have fun.

Well, the balance is pretty solid at lower XP ranges, but when you get to the point where having force ratings above 6 is near inevitable it gets a little ridiculous. Any skill you can throw force dice at just never caps out. You can always just get more force rating.

I feel like not having a cap on force rating flat out breaks the game if you let people play characters beyond a few hundred XP gained. I've seen several people got Seer/Sage and get FR5 before they even have 300 earned XP.

I think all the Careers have this issue. Once non-FU combat oriented PCs get their equipment sorted out and modded plus good Skills and Talents they become just as devastating in Combat and even non-combat challenges. Force Users have the advantage of not needing a lot of equipment but they pay for that in EXP.

Move is actually really not that strong as long as you don't forget that force attacks are subject to an opposed skill check to hit. That's sort of the big irony of force characters. The one thing where they are skill capped like everyone else is rolling discipline checks to actually use force powers against enemies, and opposed checks are much harder to succeed at than standard combat rolls.

I think all the Careers have this issue. Once non-FU combat oriented PCs get their equipment sorted out and modded plus good Skills and Talents they become just as devastating in Combat and even non-combat challenges. Force Users have the advantage of not needing a lot of equipment but they pay for that in EXP

Well yea, any character can be powergamed to pretty ridiculous levels, but they do hit a cap somewhere. Force characters can just keep getting more powerful, to the point where no check, no matter how hard is a challenge.

Take a social character. If you max out a non force face you throw 5Y1G at a social check, which are usually opposed checks, and convincing a tough opponent like a Hutt of something tends to go against at least 3 or 4 reds. Those checks never become a sure thing, unless you are a force user with the something like 30XP in Influence it takes to just add force dice to all social checks. Now you're rolling a fist full of force dice on top of your pool, and even the most difficult social checks become success with despair at the very worst.

Well, the balance is pretty solid at lower XP ranges, but when you get to the point where having force ratings above 6 is near inevitable it gets a little ridiculous.

FR6? That's a LOT of XP, even if spent in the most efficient way to get that FR (e.g.: only taking trees with two FR talents)...and then they'd suck at everything else. Even if you played weekly you'd need a few years of play before you get there.

There are a lot of aspects of the game that can be abused if the player creates a one-trick pony, the game doesn't protect itself from wilful misuse. I'm actually grateful for this because it allows maximum freedom while not wasting rule-space on trying to "balance" everything all the time. In any case, one tried-and-true way to avoid one-trick ponies is make sure they are always challenged outside their area of expertise...basically it falls to the GM to prevent or promote it.

Well, the balance is pretty solid at lower XP ranges, but when you get to the point where having force ratings above 6 is near inevitable it gets a little ridiculous. Any skill you can throw force dice at just never caps out. You can always just get more force rating.

I feel like not having a cap on force rating flat out breaks the game if you let people play characters beyond a few hundred XP gained. I've seen several people got Seer/Sage and get FR5 before they even have 300 earned XP.

I've been running a campaign for about the last 18 months or so, I think one PC is over 1000 XP now, and no one is close to 6 FR. The highest character has a FR of 4, (he could get 5 soon), but he had to work very hard to even have the chance to get 4 FP.

There are a lot of aspects of the game that can be abused if the player creates a one-trick pony, the game doesn't protect itself from wilful misuse. I'm actually grateful for this because it allows maximum freedom while not wasting rule-space on trying to "balance" everything all the time. In any case, one tried-and-true way to avoid one-trick ponies is make sure they are always challenged outside their area of expertise...basically it falls to the GM to prevent or promote it.

I guess part of the issue is that I play open games, so it's difficult to control what people do with their characters. I still think the game would overall be a lot better if they had just put in a cap on force rating, and maybe changed the force dice in skill thing to commit a force die to upgrade the pool. That way there wouldn't be anything where you can produce runaway huge skill pools and it wouldn't be limiting to reasonable characters.

Well, the balance is pretty solid at lower XP ranges, but when you get to the point where having force ratings above 6 is near inevitable it gets a little ridiculous. Any skill you can throw force dice at just never caps out. You can always just get more force rating.

I feel like not having a cap on force rating flat out breaks the game if you let people play characters beyond a few hundred XP gained. I've seen several people got Seer/Sage and get FR5 before they even have 300 earned XP.

I think all the Careers have this issue. Once non-FU combat oriented PCs get their equipment sorted out and modded plus good Skills and Talents they become just as devastating in Combat and even non-combat challenges. Force Users have the advantage of not needing a lot of equipment but they pay for that in EXP.

I can vouch for this, as the AoR campaign I play in has it's most dangerous combatant being the BH/Gadgetter/Tinkerer, with Ranged (Heavy) 5, Agility 3, and a highly-modded blaster rifle (from Dangerous Covenants) with a base damage of 13 and Pierce 3; he didn't go for the heavy blaster rifle from the corebooks as he felt having a PC with auto-fire would be too game-breaking. He's also a beast in melee since he's got Jury-Rigged brass knuckles, Brawn 4, and a pretty high Brawl score.

There are a lot of aspects of the game that can be abused if the player creates a one-trick pony, the game doesn't protect itself from wilful misuse. I'm actually grateful for this because it allows maximum freedom while not wasting rule-space on trying to "balance" everything all the time. In any case, one tried-and-true way to avoid one-trick ponies is make sure they are always challenged outside their area of expertise...basically it falls to the GM to prevent or promote it.

I guess part of the issue is that I play open games, so it's difficult to control what people do with their characters. I still think the game would overall be a lot better if they had just put in a cap on force rating, and maybe changed the force dice in skill thing to commit a force die to upgrade the pool. That way there wouldn't be anything where you can produce runaway huge skill pools and it wouldn't be limiting to reasonable characters.

There is an argument for capping everything at 6 for all Careers but really at this point you're just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

The GM has say in what does and doesn't work in certain situations. I recall there being a section in Force and Destiny about force powers not working on certain adversaries. I'd personally make the baddest of the bag guys immune to mind affecting powers, whether that's from cybernetics or mental training or their own force abilities. Immune or at least highly resistant with a high discipline/whatever needed to resist the force of the PC.

If you want to talk about powerful, you should meet a player character in one of my groups who plans to eventually fist fight a rancor and technically could do so right now with her 4 Brawn, 1 Brawl, 2 Force Rating (YGGGFF) brawl checks and her blast knuckles. Only 150xp into the game and the player can literally punch a rancor.

Tbh, I feel that making things a challenge would simply mean bringing in adversaries with similar skill ranks. Use more nemesis characters so the force checks are opposed. If a player can do it, an NPC can and possibly with a better dice pool (because the GM ignores character progression and can simply give the NPC whatever is needed).

Honestly, so long as everyone is at equal XP everything will remain equal. Between all of the talents that remove setback dice, upgrade rolls, add boost die, etc, the upper limit you can get on any one skill is pretty high. It's true that Force users can get all of that and more with the Force, but not on the same amount of XP. That leaves the Force User to either super specialize and fall behind in other areas, or to rely on the Force as a crutch to remain competitive in that one area while focusing elsewhere, and that has it's own drawbacks.

Can you give a specific example of a skill or set of skills you're worried about?

Let's say Charm, the natural max for it is 5Y1G, with a bunch of talents to support it, but it maxes out at a point where charming really headstrong adversaries is still difficult. If you're force sensitive you can just keep going, stacking up more force ratings until no opponent can ever resist your charme.

Another thing is actually using force powers. Let's say you wanted to use Influence to inflict strain on someone, with a lot of force dice you could get a very powerful attack cooking, but the rules say defense against the force is an opposed check, and discipline caps out at a place where the big bads in the game can still win. If you use Scathing Tirade + the force however, where it's a standard check that purely counts successes you can shout an entire army into submission with those extra force dice.

This issue is any place in the rule where the force isn't there to activate a power that requires a separate skill check to succeed, but simply adds on top of a skill check. The game just breaks in those places, especially in opposed checks, since even if your target has force dice they don't count in opposed checks. Something that should be risky to do if your opponent has substantial defenses, like rolling coercion on a Black Suns gangster becomes easy.

This issue is any place in the rule where the force isn't there to activate a power that requires a separate skill check to succeed, but simply adds on top of a skill check. The game just breaks in those places, especially in opposed checks, since even if your target has force dice they don't count in opposed checks. Something that should be risky to do if your opponent has substantial defenses, like rolling coercion on a Black Suns gangster becomes easy.

I think this is an issue where the GM needs to use some common sense, and refuse to let the PCs get away with game-breaking stuff.

Either that, or the PCs need to understand that the GM can have NPCs do the same game-breaking stuff, to the extreme detriment of the PCs.

So long as the PCs don’t try to do game-breaking stuff (either because they don’t want to, or because they’re afraid that the GM will do the same to them), then you should be fine.

Let's say Charm, the natural max for it is 5Y1G, with a bunch of talents to support it, but it maxes out at a point where charming really headstrong adversaries is still difficult. If you're force sensitive you can just keep going, stacking up more force ratings until no opponent can ever resist your charme.

I think it's important to note that "charm" doesn't necessarily mean "agreement", and there are limits to the effectiveness of social checks. For example, I'm not gay, so a guy trying to seduce me simply wouldn't work. The best level of success possible in that situation is I think the guy is hilarious and fun to hang out with, but I'm not crawling in the sack. The Far Horizons book has some guidance on this.

Another thing is actually using force powers. Let's say you wanted to use Influence to inflict strain on someone, with a lot of force dice you could get a very powerful attack cooking, but the rules say defense against the force is an opposed check, and discipline caps out at a place where the big bads in the game can still win. If you use Scathing Tirade + the force however, where it's a standard check that purely counts successes you can shout an entire army into submission with those extra force dice.

I don't know about an entire army...let's say you have Influence maxed out and you have FR6, each Magnitude pip is essentially 3 extra targets (4 total). Assuming you roll 1.5 pips per die, that's 9 pips total, and roughly 5 will be dark. So if you want to use them all you'd be spending 5 Strain, etc.

Let's say it was "thugs", with a WT of 4-5, meaning you need three pips to *exceed* their WT (factoring in the Strength upgrade). You could then spend 6 pips on Magnitude, targeting a total of 4 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 19 thugs.

I can see it. Darth Maul in a dark alley, the hiss and hum of his lightsaber emerging, scaring the pants off a bunch of mooks, it totally fits. He still took 5 Strain doing it...

Keep in mind a couple things. First, FR6 is widely considered "Yoda" or "Palpatine" range. Personally I'd go 7 or 8 with them, because I'd assume they have a lot of dice committed for other things. Which leads to the second, committing. When you Commit a Force die to your Brawn or Agility or the various Sense upgrades, or whatever, you can't roll them as part of the skill pools. If Darth Maul had FR6 (which he probably doesn't, but whatever) in that kind of situation, he's probably getting ready for a fight, boosting his Brawn and Sense defences, leaving less to roll for Coercion or Influence or whatever.

Third, I get the sense you haven't played the game long or at a high level of XP, you're maybe planning ahead and wondering how to handle things. If that is the case I'd say it's too early to worry, so long as your players use reasonable judgement in their PC progression it won't be an issue.

If your force user has 6 force rating and multiple high level force abilities, I can't imagine what your non force users have. At 600+ xp you could have 3 full trees with multiple high ranks in important skills. A jury rigged auto fire heavy rifle with yyyyyg could do alot of damage. A politico with all the social talents could say almost anything. I guess I don't understand the fear of force users. This comes up more and more with GM who started with Edge and now have to deal with new PCs and scenarios. Stretch your creative mind and counter anything they are doing that's "broken" in your mind. Create "force dampeners" that stop all force powers. Split the group and force a jedi vs sith fight.

Let's say Charm, the natural max for it is 5Y1G, with a bunch of talents to support it, but it maxes out at a point where charming really headstrong adversaries is still difficult. If you're force sensitive you can just keep going, stacking up more force ratings until no opponent can ever resist your charme.

Another thing is actually using force powers. Let's say you wanted to use Influence to inflict strain on someone, with a lot of force dice you could get a very powerful attack cooking, but the rules say defense against the force is an opposed check, and discipline caps out at a place where the big bads in the game can still win. If you use Scathing Tirade + the force however, where it's a standard check that purely counts successes you can shout an entire army into submission with those extra force dice.

This issue is any place in the rule where the force isn't there to activate a power that requires a separate skill check to succeed, but simply adds on top of a skill check. The game just breaks in those places, especially in opposed checks, since even if your target has force dice they don't count in opposed checks. Something that should be risky to do if your opponent has substantial defenses, like rolling coercion on a Black Suns gangster becomes easy.

With 1 fr they get at best 2 more success or advantage . With 2 Fr they get at best 4, this assumes they get the right colour of pips , any more FR and they are usually into another specs talent tree. This amount of additional on a brawl check gives an average 2 or 3 extra damage.

Now look at the brawl check of a fully tricked out marauder who has an automatic +3 damage on both brawl and melee (not just brawl) with a 3 strain payment can upgrade the same check 3 times (via frenzied strike), which once per session, he can re-roll, has increased his wounds +8(toughened) , his soak by 2 (enduring), and his strikes have +30 on the critical.

While this is what he does, there is, thus far not one tree that can outdo him in melee or brawl FS or not. The force sensitive that goes for enhance brawl spends another load of xp on the force powers. Yes the FS spec can buy into marauder and outdo him, but by this time the marauder can buy into Commando/ Spy / or the new martial artist spec .

I can't imagine what your non force users have. At 600+ xp you could have 3 full trees with multiple high ranks in important skills.

Each tree is 300XP, so that's only 2 trees with no skills. IOW, it's worse than you said

Let's say Charm, the natural max for it is 5Y1G, with a bunch of talents to support it, but it maxes out at a point where charming really headstrong adversaries is still difficult. If you're force sensitive you can just keep going, stacking up more force ratings until no opponent can ever resist your charme.

I think it's important to note that "charm" doesn't necessarily mean "agreement", and there are limits to the effectiveness of social checks. For example, I'm not gay, so a guy trying to seduce me simply wouldn't work. The best level of success possible in that situation is I think the guy is hilarious and fun to hang out with, but I'm not crawling in the sack. The Far Horizons book has some guidance on this.

Another thing is actually using force powers. Let's say you wanted to use Influence to inflict strain on someone, with a lot of force dice you could get a very powerful attack cooking, but the rules say defense against the force is an opposed check, and discipline caps out at a place where the big bads in the game can still win. If you use Scathing Tirade + the force however, where it's a standard check that purely counts successes you can shout an entire army into submission with those extra force dice.

I don't know about an entire army...let's say you have Influence maxed out and you have FR6, each Magnitude pip is essentially 3 extra targets (4 total). Assuming you roll 1.5 pips per die, that's 9 pips total, and roughly 5 will be dark. So if you want to use them all you'd be spending 5 Strain, etc.

Let's say it was "thugs", with a WT of 4-5, meaning you need three pips to *exceed* their WT (factoring in the Strength upgrade). You could then spend 6 pips on Magnitude, targeting a total of 4 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 19 thugs.

I can see it. Darth Maul in a dark alley, the hiss and hum of his lightsaber emerging, scaring the pants off a bunch of mooks, it totally fits. He still took 5 Strain doing it...

Keep in mind a couple things. First, FR6 is widely considered "Yoda" or "Palpatine" range. Personally I'd go 7 or 8 with them, because I'd assume they have a lot of dice committed for other things. Which leads to the second, committing. When you Commit a Force die to your Brawn or Agility or the various Sense upgrades, or whatever, you can't roll them as part of the skill pools. If Darth Maul had FR6 (which he probably doesn't, but whatever) in that kind of situation, he's probably getting ready for a fight, boosting his Brawn and Sense defences, leaving less to roll for Coercion or Influence or whatever.

Third, I get the sense you haven't played the game long or at a high level of XP, you're maybe planning ahead and wondering how to handle things. If that is the case I'd say it's too early to worry, so long as your players use reasonable judgement in their PC progression it won't be an issue.

Seduction can go beyond overtly sexual activities. He could also convince you to do things that may not be in your best interest, like skipping a day of work to hang out with him and "chill" ( ) or to take another few rounds of shots when you know you shouldn't, or to back him up in a fight that is entirely his fault and none of your business. All of these are seductions of a sort even if there's no meeting of the genitals occurring.

Seduction can go beyond overtly sexual activities. He could also convince you to do things that may not be in your best interest, like skipping a day of work to hang out with him and "chill" ( ) or to take another few rounds of shots when you know you shouldn't, or to back him up in a fight that is entirely his fault and none of your business. All of these are seductions of a sort even if there's no meeting of the genitals occurring.

True, I was just pointing out that there might be a limit to any kind of seduction, and the player shouldn't assume whatever they ask for is going to work just because...dice. Skipping a day at work might work for me, but for someone else it might put their life/career/marriage on the line.

I should probably clarify I wouldn't cancel a player's success, but I do feel free to offer a conversion to something that suits the NPC's story.

Seduction can go beyond overtly sexual activities. He could also convince you to do things that may not be in your best interest, like skipping a day of work to hang out with him and "chill" ( ) or to take another few rounds of shots when you know you shouldn't, or to back him up in a fight that is entirely his fault and none of your business. All of these are seductions of a sort even if there's no meeting of the genitals occurring.

True, I was just pointing out that there might be a limit to any kind of seduction, and the player shouldn't assume whatever they ask for is going to work just because...dice. Skipping a day at work might work for me, but for someone else it might put their life/career/marriage on the line.

I should probably clarify I wouldn't cancel a player's success, but I do feel free to offer a conversion to something that suits the NPC's story.

But he's got box seats for that once-in-a-lifetime sports event with your favorite team, and he's willing to fly you there on his private yacht. All you have to do is call in sick and lie to your wife...

A high enough Charm skill can make you fall for something like this because...dice.

I think what whafrog is going for is that Charm, or any Skill for that matter, isn't magic even if the Force is involved. A successful Charm isn't going to get the ISB agent to just open the cell door for you or a Hutt to clear your debt, what it will do is open them up to the idea but you still have to create a situation that makes what you want possible.

Let's say Charm, the natural max for it is 5Y1G, with a bunch of talents to support it, but it maxes out at a point where charming really headstrong adversaries is still difficult. If you're force sensitive you can just keep going, stacking up more force ratings until no opponent can ever resist your charme.

Another thing is actually using force powers. Let's say you wanted to use Influence to inflict strain on someone, with a lot of force dice you could get a very powerful attack cooking, but the rules say defense against the force is an opposed check, and discipline caps out at a place where the big bads in the game can still win. If you use Scathing Tirade + the force however, where it's a standard check that purely counts successes you can shout an entire army into submission with those extra force dice.

This issue is any place in the rule where the force isn't there to activate a power that requires a separate skill check to succeed, but simply adds on top of a skill check. The game just breaks in those places, especially in opposed checks, since even if your target has force dice they don't count in opposed checks. Something that should be risky to do if your opponent has substantial defenses, like rolling coercion on a Black Suns gangster becomes easy.

That's still a bit vague. Can you go ahead and use Oggdudes chargen to make the kind of character you're worried about seeing? Because that kind of specific example is going to make it easier for me to explain why I don't see a problem.

I think what whafrog is going for is that Charm, or any Skill for that matter, isn't magic even if the Force is involved. A successful Charm isn't going to get the ISB agent to just open the cell door for you or a Hutt to clear your debt, what it will do is open them up to the idea but you still have to create a situation that makes what you want possible.

I disagree. It will do that. Of course, the issue is that the roll may be seriously penalized by Setback and/or Upgrades based upon the conditions you mention. Still, if you're successful despite all of that, then the other guy is going to give in.