This conversation again stresses the importance of Session Zero and setting some ground rules. Some things are just not going to be okay at the table and assuming everyone has the same sensitivities and proclivities is not going to solve the problem. Telling people they've violated unspoken rules isn't really going to work either and there's no "One True Set" of rules for the gaming table. We cannot assume that everyone is the same.

Sexual violence being a no no is something that shouldn't need a rule, it's common decency. I wouldn't play with a person who thought it was cool, so it's a non issue for my group and always will be. It needs not be spoken because we'd all be saying "wtf" if someone said they planned to **** an npc. It's pointless and serves no purpose in a Star Wars RPG anyhow. It's dispicable, even in a fictional shared narrative world. There are some things our culture looks down upon when it comes to entertainment more than others, and sexual violence is on the tippy top of that range, as it should be. A player deciding to **** an npc reflects very negatively on that person and I wouldn't have it in my game and for no other reason because I'm not going to sit there and participate in it and imagine it. Wouldn't need a rule banning people from reading narrative porn at the gaming table either, but again it's not going to happen as long as you don't play with creeps that don't share your values. Maybe I'm fortunate in that my friends are all good human beings with a solid moral center, but I wouldn't associate with anyone who didn't.

If someone wants to satisfy their sexual desires there are websites that serve that purpose much better than my gaming table.

So your views are the only right ones for everybody and you will only associate with people that share them unquestioningly because if they don't it "reflects very negatively on that person" and their views can't even be imagined?

OK, sure, crusade away against people that imagine differently than you. And there must be more of them than you imagine, because there are a lot of fictional rapists .

You know, some things are not a question of being right or being wrong, but a matter of enjoying being around someone. If someone shows up on the table with a swastika tattoo on his neck, I know as well that one of us is leaving the table. If you accept someone living out his **** fantasies on your table that is fine. If he makes it about pedophilly we are getting into a field which would require me by law even to shut down the table … and write a report. But even this would be fine on someone else table, because then it would be none of my business.

We all can just talk about where we draw the line and what we consider part of the unspoken social contract of the group (or even written down base line like some groups use), that does not mean that others can not decide to be different, but that does not mean that I need to accept those creeps on my table. Which is a little ironic of me saying that as I doubt that anyone on my table would actually object to a character ****** someone. The character would be most likely dead, because our groups tend to have usually at least some very violent characters, characters who are very rigid about their principles and morally. So basically even with a group who would not object on player level, the group dynamics and character interactions would make such wicket characters impossible, because they would never be group compatible. But again, that is something each table to decide. And besides you can turn events into one sentence events, there is literally no need to go into details for such things. "You **** the slave girl. When you bring her back to the hutt, she still cries. The hutt ask her what happens, she tells him. The group drops into the rancor pit. The end."

Edit: And before someone gets the wrong impression of my group. I don't think someone in the group would ever have the desire to play a character who falls that low. Simply because if offers little entertainment to play.

This conversation again stresses the importance of Session Zero and setting some ground rules. Some things are just not going to be okay at the table and assuming everyone has the same sensitivities and proclivities is not going to solve the problem. Telling people they've violated unspoken rules isn't really going to work either and there's no "One True Set" of rules for the gaming table. We cannot assume that everyone is the same.

Sexual violence being a no no is something that shouldn't need a rule, it's common decency.

I disagree that this is common decency. You're applying your morals to others, and while the vast majority of gamers might agree with us, I am not one to tell anyone how they can run their games. You're perfectly fine in thinking that you are "right" but you must remember that you are unique and different from everyone else, and not everyone's going to share the same point of view. If people talk about this and are okay with it, then I say let people play the way they want to play.

I'm done with this conversation. Can't believe it's even a debate. Enjoy.

That's your doing, honestly. Your values or my values do not apply to others. The issue is not around what is and what isn't tasteful, the issue is around telling others how to be. I too find this topic (and honestly, many others) quite distasteful and those will never be in my game, nor will I continue to participate in a game that offends my values unreasonably*.

* reasonable = we talked about it and we agreed unanimously to confront it as a group.

After going back to re-read this thread, it's shocking at how much outrage people have with sexual violence but are seemingly okay with every other form of violence. Lost is the outrage for the legless fallen jedi or the countless dead stormtroopers who were, after all, living things. Imagine a world where violence against any part of another's body carried the same weight as violence against another's genitals.

Hutts have little regard for non-Hutts. What has happened is that the Hutt's property has been damaged. The Hutt will use this as an opportunity to profit or increase influence, so it is far more likely to want credits and/or Obligation than blood. Killing is generally inefficient and eliminates opportunities for further business.

After going back to re-read this thread, it's shocking at how much outrage people have with sexual violence but are seemingly okay with every other form of violence. Lost is the outrage for the legless fallen jedi or the countless dead stormtroopers who were, after all, living things. Imagine a world where violence against any part of another's body carried the same weight as violence against another's genitals.

No kidding. Star Wars has species-motivated mass murder hate crimes(Anakin vs Tusken in E2), genocide, frequent expressions of mayhem/dismemberment, use of child soldiers, slavery, and just about everything else. None of those seem to attract the same degree of attention.

After going back to re-read this thread, it's shocking at how much outrage people have with sexual violence but are seemingly okay with every other form of violence. Lost is the outrage for the legless fallen jedi or the countless dead stormtroopers who were, after all, living things. Imagine a world where violence against any part of another's body carried the same weight as violence against another's genitals.

Armchair psychology time.

"Traditional" violence in fiction is usually seen as an extension of the vague notion of conflict that drives narrative. In narratives, the "traditional" violence perpetrated by protagonists is normally portrayed and seen as reactive, defensive. The violence perpetrated by antagonists is normally there to justify the protagonists acting against them.

Sexual assault - in the real world or a fictional one - is pretty darned impossible to portray as defensive. ("Well, those stormtroopers were coming at me, so I banged 'em" just doesn't ring true.) As such, an antagonist who is prepared to visit sexual assault on a supporting character or protagonist is shown in that light as someone who is capable of the most base and vile crimes.

Cases in point, let's look at the comics version of The Walking Dead's Governor, who repeatedly assaulted Michonne while she was his captive, the TV series' "Claimers" who had comics counterparts, both with a member who was prepared to r@pe Carl while forcing Rick to watch, or the TV show's version of the Governor, who threatened to do the same to Maggie with Glenn watching in order to gain information. While our protagonists in both media have done some horrible, questionable things, it has always been presented as an "us or them" situation (at least in the group's minds). Yet it's rather difficult to justify a protagonist committing sexual assault in any sort of defensive light.

We could, I suppose, further explore the example of Buffy the Vampire Slayer's Spike that I mentioned earlier. When he attempted to assault Buffy, he was, nominally, a protagonist on the show, but one that we were frequently reminded was a soulless demon, one who had tried to kill the rest of the Scoobies on more than one occasion, and who had previously expressed his "love" for Drusilla through violence and torture. That act of trying to force himself on Buffy led to his (temporary) self-exile from the group and willingly going through a torturous, painful process to willingly have his soul returned, all so he could try to prove himself worthy to Buffy. Even at that...after Spike's redemption arc in the final season, his attempted assault of Buffy was seen as nigh-unforgivable by the rest of the Scoobies when it came to light.

In summary, there are ways to narratively justify "traditional" violence by the nominal heroes of the story, but VERY few - if any - to justify sexual violence.

Added aside....

If we look at the Star Trek franchise, while they did their fair share of "violation" stories that touched, symbolically, on the matter, they were fairly casual with one particular aspect of female-on-male sexual assault:

Any time a female character wanted something from a Ferengi male, they'd go straight to performing oo-mox, stroking the Ferengi's ears, which had been established as an erogenous zone, and a source of sexual gratification. Basically, they did the equivalent of walking up to a human male and starting to rub his crotch to get what they wanted. And it was always played for laughs.

After going back to re-read this thread, it's shocking at how much outrage people have with sexual violence but are seemingly okay with every other form of violence. Lost is the outrage for the legless fallen jedi or the countless dead stormtroopers who were, after all, living things. Imagine a world where violence against any part of another's body carried the same weight as violence against another's genitals.

Thing is that few of us are likely to have been murdered, or know someone who has been. So, a murder in-game is unlikely to trigger serious psychological problems for us.

Likewise, few of us are likely to have been tortured, or know someone who has been. Again, unlikely to trigger psychological problems for us.

But sexual abuse? In my experience, sexual abuse is actually much more about psychological abuse than anything else, and I think that’s actually relatively common among the populace.

So, there is this intersection between in-game violence that doesn’t necessarily trigger deep psychological problems for most people, and being able to demonstrate in-game “villains”. But there are certain types of in-game villainy that are much more likely to trigger very strong emotional responses from others at the table.

And those strong emotional responses may very well be irrational, and even potentially criminal in the real world.

If I happen to be one of the people who is unable to control my emotions and my actions in response to being triggered like that, then I have to be willing to suffer whatever the real-world consequences are. But when I get up on the stand in front of the jury, I believe that they’d be likely to give me a relatively light sentence, given the circumstances.

Frankly, in the Star Wars Universe, almost all serious villainy occurs off-screen, if at all. How many times do we see someone willfully, intentionally, and with maliciousness aforethought mutilate or murder people on-screen? Other than Anakin/Darth Vader? Other than Palpatine/Darth Sidious?

We see the most evil people in the Universe cut off other peoples hands, and then their heads — but the person being killed is also one of the most evil people in the Universe. We see the most evil people in the Universe be in the same room with children and swing lightsabers, but do we see the limbs and bodies of the children being mutilated? Even amongst the most evil people in the Universe, torture still happens off-screen.

Before anyone starts working too hard on their mail order thesis about sexual violence, moral relatavism, or red herring debating techniques, I asked for the thread to be snuffed. Reported it via my own name so no one get their feelings hurt.

Before anyone starts working too hard on their mail order thesis about sexual violence, moral relatavism, or red herring debating techniques, I asked for the thread to be snuffed. Reported it via my own name so no one get their feelings hurt.

Good idea. Thanks!

After going back to re-read this thread, it's shocking at how much outrage people have with sexual violence but are seemingly okay with every other form of violence. Lost is the outrage for the legless fallen jedi or the countless dead stormtroopers who were, after all, living things. Imagine a world where violence against any part of another's body carried the same weight as violence against another's genitals.

Yeah, I'm out guys. Defending this bull mindset is about to piss me off WAAAY too much.

Have fun.

Before anyone starts working too hard on their mail order thesis about sexual violence, moral relatavism, or red herring debating techniques, I asked for the thread to be snuffed. Reported it via my own name so no one get their feelings hurt.

Won't I get some kind of warning if you're reporting a post I made? It wasn't done to be crass I genuinely needed advice

Oh you're fine it won't blow back on anyone I just basically said its time to shut it down. They might not, they might, but they won't say anything to you.

Before anyone starts working too hard on their mail order thesis about sexual violence, moral relatavism, or red herring debating techniques, I asked for the thread to be snuffed. Reported it via my own name so no one get their feelings hurt.

Good idea. The thread has well outlived its purpose.

Hutts have little regard for non-Hutts. What has happened is that the Hutt's property has been damaged. The Hutt will use this as an opportunity to profit or increase influence, so it is far more likely to want credits and/or Obligation than blood. Killing is generally inefficient and eliminates opportunities for further business.

Allowing someone to get off with credits after damaging/stealing property from a Hutt on purpose, especially after given the task to bring the property back is inexcusable. A Hutt has to care about his reputation as well, he will not forgive such impudence. It makes an exemple and secures further business and his properties.

And btw, a lot of the same things can be said about torture porn as well, including that a Hutt would kill a group if they bring his slave girl in that condition to him. .

.

Well, before we get shut down, my apologies if I've offended anyone. The world is a large place filled with people who don't see eye to eye, and the sooner we accept that as a species, the better off we're going to be.

After going back to re-read this thread, it's shocking at how much outrage people have with sexual violence but are seemingly okay with every other form of violence. Lost is the outrage for the legless fallen jedi or the countless dead stormtroopers who were, after all, living things. Imagine a world where violence against any part of another's body carried the same weight as violence against another's genitals.

Thing is that few of us are likely to have been murdered, or know someone who has been. So, a murder in-game is unlikely to trigger serious psychological problems for us.

Likewise, few of us are likely to have been tortured, or know someone who has been. Again, unlikely to trigger psychological problems for us.

But sexual abuse? In my experience, sexual abuse is actually much more about psychological abuse than anything else, and I think that’s actually relatively common among the populace.

My apologies Brad, I didn't mean to equivocate or try to make light of any trauma. I'm not trauma-free myself and I do respect that people have issues with certain topics.

I am only hoping to accomplish a better framework for the dialog that takes place in Session Zero.

After going back to re-read this thread, it's shocking at how much outrage people have with sexual violence but are seemingly okay with every other form of violence. Lost is the outrage for the legless fallen jedi or the countless dead stormtroopers who were, after all, living things. Imagine a world where violence against any part of another's body carried the same weight as violence against another's genitals.

Thing is that few of us are likely to have been murdered, or know someone who has been. So, a murder in-game is unlikely to trigger serious psychological problems for us.

Likewise, few of us are likely to have been tortured, or know someone who has been. Again, unlikely to trigger psychological problems for us.

But sexual abuse? In my experience, sexual abuse is actually much more about psychological abuse than anything else, and I think that’s actually relatively common among the populace.

My apologies Brad, I didn't mean to equivocate or try to make light of any trauma. I'm not trauma-free myself and I do respect that people have issues with certain topics.

I am only hoping to accomplish a better framework for the dialog that takes place in Session Zero.

The other non-parallel is that sexual violence, like torture, can only be premeditated. Just MHO, but that's a different/larger magnitude of evil than the violence that occurs when you're trying to escape from a totalitarian regime.

The other non-parallel is that sexual violence, like torture, can only be premeditated. Just MHO, but that's a different/larger magnitude of evil than the violence that occurs when you're trying to escape from a totalitarian regime.

Excellent point as well, I stand multiply corrected.

Won't I get some kind of warning if you're reporting a post I made? It wasn't done to be crass I genuinely needed advice

I hit the “Report” button on one of my own posts. So, that won’t come back to hurt anyone else but me.

I can’t speak for the actions that anyone else has taken on this thread.

Hello Edge of the Empire forum community-

This thread has now been locked at the request of many forum users. Feel free to continue beneficial discussion in another thread.

Thanks and keep playing,

FFG Forum Moderator