Perhaps I am too jaded but I feel I should start out with a disclaimer:
This is not meant to be a complaint about Dark Heresy. I am just trying to refresh my perspectives and need some input. Also, I should add that if I am not getting my point across it is because I am not quite sure exactly what I am after. While I have run through Edge of Darkness I do not have extensive experience with the game. Please bear with me and thank you in advance.

With that out of the way I’ll get on with it. I am eager to pick up table-top roleplaying again and am researching various settings and systems. I love the 40K setting but have issues with the system and since I am looking for a system that, to me, is playable straight out of the box I want to make sure that I am not throwing out the baby with the bathwater before I move on to other options.

Boiled down my main gripe with the system is that the Dark Heresy rules system seem clunky and unwieldy.

I do not like BRP to begin with and levels (ranks) even less but I could probably live with that. However as I read the books and the forums it seems to me that Dark Heresy is a heavy work load for the Game Master. Do not get me wrong, I really enjoy the whole planning process that comes with being a GM. It’s just that a lot of the work seems to be about mechanically adjusting talents and traits for the NPC in order to create a balanced challenge for the PC.

Another major concern of mine is that the system seem to suffer from the old BRP curse of “I go, you go” - meaning that battles more often than not come down to the PC and the NPC blowing huge chunks of flesh out of each other until one of them drops dead. The PC winning more through having the biggest gun and largest amount of wounds than any smart tactics. How much of an impact does real-world tactics affect play? I know there are rules for suppressing fire and ambushes for instance but again, especially with the autofire rules it seems to come down to just rate of fire.
Perhaps a lot of my concerns come from the fact that I recently acquired WFRP3 and in comparison that game seems slick and streamlined without losing much character.

I know that a good GM can make any system work and also that I should just dive. I’ll likely have a good game but since I have very limited spare time to begin with I want to make sure that I chose a system that work with me and that I do not have to constantly adjust and tinker with (even if that can be fun in itself).

I am really trying hard to like this game on account of the awesome setting but just can’t push myself to commit.

Any help on the matter is most appreciated.

/bladerunner_35

Well, may the rules just arent for you...mainly Dark Heresy is not a "fighting game" no matter what people say it's about investigation and the like but I do personally think the combat rules are great and the fights are pretty fluid but as you said yourself you don't have much experience with the game so maybe you should give it a few tries before condemming it? and sorry to say but it does seem a bit like your judging the system before having really tried it out.

My suggestion would be to give it a go and see how it all actually work and then make up your mind there.

bladerunner_35 said:

I think this is the problem right here. If you like the system behind the new 3rd ed. Warhammer Fantasy and find DH clunky then I suspect it is not the game system for you. IMO DH is pretty smooth running once you get used to the system. I personally would rather set my genitals on fire than play an RPG that uses cards and counters instead of allowing for greater flexibility and creativity on the part of players and GMs. This is why I hate the new Warhammer Fantasy and D&D 4th. ed.

Give Dark Heresy a chance, it is a good system and it does flow well... And the setting is obviously awesome!

If it does not work out for you I might point you towards the Warhammer 40k CCG.

"allowing for greater flexibility and creativity on the part of players and GMs."

4th Ed. is actually really great at this, once you get used to it. But they've added a lot to it, and I could see where you'd get that impression based on the initial set of rules. Especially when it was being directly compared to the vast and probably best uncharted wilderness that was 3rd edition's collection of suppliments and options.

(4th ed and DH are also polar opposites, in that it's best to ignore the fluff in 4th edition, whereas it's worth buying DH stuff just to read the fluff).

Hodgepodge said:

Agreed, wholeheartedly, especially that last bit. However, I would point out that in the Eberron setting, this is not the case. But that's a topic for another board.

In any case, I and my group have found the rules/mechanics to be very streamlined, with good flow ... especially in comparison to above-mentioned game. Just my two cents.

bladerunner_35 said:

Once you get the hang of the combat system it actually turns out that your don't need to worry. The basic skill levels tend to stay at 30 to 50 range which means that no-one is never guaranteed to hit contantly unless they have the feats to use and can set up with enough environmental modifiers to themselves through terrain, tactics and/or sheer luck. The kind of battles where you shoot at each other untill you run out of wounds should not happen... or, more like it, if someone decides to just stand and shoot he will get creamed very fast when his opponents get behind cover, pin him up with suppressive fire and then grenade the sh*t out of him.

Also remember that DH is not a tactical table-top wargame. This means that quite unlike in table-top wargames everyone is not the perfect soldier executing orders in precise, robotic fashion untill hit by enemy. The fear and insanity rules are there to be used, even in mundane encounters. You are well within your rights as GM to enforce fear checks to PC and/or NPC alike when they are confronted with things that tend to shock you in battlefield (like being at receiving end of heavy weapon fire, seeing your friend lose a limb in gruesome manner, being ambushed pants-down by enemy outnumbering you...)

At best DH combats should be chaotic, deadly and very, very, very scary affairs... You want to set it up so that no Acolyte will willingly waltz into full-scale firefight unless prepared. The rules are enough to do that.

bladerunner_35 said:

This entire statement is wrong. Tactics are an integral part of the DH system and if you think you're characters can stand in the middle of the street firing away, believing their bigger guns and greater number of wounds will save them, you have got another think coming. Without taking advantage of the tactic options you are next to useless in a combat run with even minimal skill by the gm ... cover rules, range, suppression fire, choosing the proper weapon and ammunition for the situation, aiming, utilizing your partial and full actions properly, etc. are all very important parts of the combat scenario in DH.

Sure the guy with the best armor and weapons is going to have an advantage, but that is rather realistic - and it doesn't dominate most encounters.

The level system is pretty flexible in just what it means for each character - allowing people to progress through each rank with their own preferences in mind while maintaining the idea that you do have to learn how to bind a wound before you can do surgery - which is what levels are about. If you go to school the example should be fairly evident - grades in a school system are effectively levels of experience and - what do you know? - they are pretty good indicators of your ability to succeed within your given area of study.

That said, I think the tactical nature of the rules makes them a bit too mechanics heavy for a setting which puts a great deal of emphasis on developing atmosphere - but different people have differing opinions on that.

Tactics are vital in the system.

For a super simple example: in my last session the entire party of characters was pinned down by one enemy grunt armed with an autogun. The enemy had taken a position in the cover of a reinforced door frame at the top of a stairwell the acolytes need to go up. With supressing fire he drove them back out of the stairwell and made them take cover around the corner at the next landing to get out of his kill zone. They were stuck until their big thug of a guardsman with more balls than brains tromped out onto the stairs into the hail of fire (Had to pass a -30 Willpower roll to do so) got lucky and wasn't hit, and chucked a frag grenade up behind the shooter.

The enemy (even though a basic mook) through use of tactics made things very difficult and risky for the PCs. If the one PC hadn't put himself at huge risk to make the grenade toss, then things would have gone much more poorly for them.

[Of course, with the crazy critical hit tables, the grenade's explosion tossed the rifleman through the air 6 meters causing him to bank off a wall and into the guardsman, doing more damage than the shooting had...]

Thank you one and all for your comments. They're appreciated. After having a chat with my wife we decided on trying out Dark Heresy. She really liked the investigative nature of Dark Heresy and I'll run through a demo adventure and take it from there.

Now, are there any fan made cheat sheets or flow charts or the like for combat. That would go along way to break the learning curve of the system. Links to good fansites are also appreciated.

Rather than the demo adventure in the book, let me recommend Edge of Darkness, which is available as a free pdf on the Dark Heresy support page here on the FFG site. It is, IMO, really an excellent adventure and a great into into the investigative aspects of the game.

Since you mentioned "demo adventure": Do not under any circumstances play Shattered Hopes unless you modify it until there's nothing left of the original. It's an almost-straight dungeon crawl that doesn't have much to do with the normal game.

Also something that you should know since it's a classic beginner's mistake: A +0 test is considered "Challenging" - and when you look at the PC's stats, you'll know why. Abilities are usually around 30, basic skills around 15 and advanced skills between 30 and 40. Don't be afraid to start with positive modifiers and hand out more if the players have some good ideas.

bladerunner_35 said:

Well, check out the link in my sig. Dark Reign is one of the biggest Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader fan sites out there, and we've got a pretty good relationship with FFG.

bladerunner_35 said:

At Ordo Malleus (sometimes referred to as malleus.dk), we have a collection of GM tools, vehicle blue prints and fan art. Including a character generator, which spits out NPCs like a storm bolter. Also a random name generator for all those pesky, insignificant minor NPCs, that the player need to know the name of, as well as who they're married to, what the name of their children are, their children's room-mates etc.

Give it a look and GL with DH - im sure you and you wife won't regret it

Restaroth
The Malleus Maleficarum Syndicate

@ Lucius T: I were actually thinking of running through a modified version of Shattered Hopes. I know it's pretty sh*tty but I'll throw in some light detective work on top of the dungeoun crawl. It is mainly just a quick fix for her to get her feets wet. I want her to have a basic understanding of the rules before running Edge of Darkness. I too think it's a great adventure and I do not want to ruin for her by being a demo of the rules.

@ Cifer: That is good advice, thanks a lot. While doing reserch about the game I've come up with three main points. Feel free to add anything more on this list of things to keep in mind:

1. Like you said, an unmodified test is considered to be done while hanging from a loose drainpipe under fire, in the rain. It really is about finding and stacking bonuses.

2. Equipment. Having the right (preferably high quality) tool for the right job is all important. In the beginning an automatic weapon is all important for that autofire bonus.

3. Tactics/planning. Make sure that the players (and the GM) knows that it pays of to use tactics. Planning ahead will actually give you the edge and sometimes, just sometimes it might even be a good idea to retreat. A novel concept in roleplaying, to be sure.

4. Anything else I've missed?

@ MILLANDSON and Restaroth: Thanks I'll make sure to check both Dark Reign and Ordo Malleus!

Thanks again for your help. It goes a long way.

2. Equipment. Having the right (preferably high quality) tool for the right job is all important. In the beginning an automatic weapon is all important for that autofire bonus.

Alternatively, get an Accurate Basic weapon and use the sniping rules from the Errata. In melee, the most important bonus is outnumbering the enemy and not being outnumbered - the bonus for 2:1 is +10, 3:1 grants +30.

That is really very excellent. One of my major gripes with the system pre-errata was that it seemed very difficult to one-shot someone with a sniper rifle. Thanks again Cifer, you are a blessing.

Edit: While on the subject - I have access to Rogue Trader but haven't really read it through and through. Can I assume that they've incorporated all the errata and polished the rules in that version, essentially making it into Dark Heresy v2.0?

Yeah kind of, they changed a couple of things like Righteous Fury which does the Weapon damage again rather than an additional d10 which I don't personally like but for the most part its the same with the errata. It should be noted that alot of the errata is clarification and minor changes like making the starting skills and talents available in case background packages remove them. For example about a page of the errata is simply listing how the modifiers for dual wielding with different talents stack.

Really all you need to take away from the Errata is that Bolt Weapons are now Tearing, Accurate Weapons do more damage if Aimed and that the starting skills and talents are available to buy first rank. If you find something that is missing in the Career advances then check the errata to see if its there otherwise you don't really need to look at it.

Skim the errata to look for changes that you think might be important and let your players look it up for stuff relivent to them. We dont really look at the errata during play so I dont think its a problem.

Kaihlik

Also Manstoppers increase penetration to 3, not by +3.

The GM screen is a really quality piece if you want a quick reference.

There is also a really handy "cheat sheet" (I think available on the Dark Reign website) that lists all the available actions in the game and a short summary of what they do, as well as the ever handy half/full designations. It includes the vehicle actions from the Apocripha as well. Before my first game session I made sure to print out a stack of these as well as some good intro "fluff" material and handed a neat little bundle of pages to each player. Since they were all new to Dark Heresy and some of them were new to the 40K universe it really made things alot easier as far as the learning curve is concerned.

After a few games they all pretty much got a good solid grip of the rules, as they are fast, fluid and pretty simple to remember. Gotta love percentile-based game mechanics with decimal-based modifiers! "Ok, that was a good idea to bring along a crowbar since the window seems to be stuck shut, add +10 to your check."

What I really love about Dark Heresy (besides the setting, obviously) is that EVERY character career in the game has massive "badass" potential. I am currently convinced that the Emperor LOVES Adepts since dumb luck seems to follow them around and gets stuck in their robes. They are all capable of sheer awesomeness, but each career takes a slightly different path to reach the awesome-sauce. When forming your group keep in mind they are best off if they include at least one hard hitting combat specialist (not a surprise for any RPG), but they will also really want a good investigator, a "people person", and a walking brain. Bonus points for medics, as usual.

Shattered Hopes is good for what it is indended for: It was the intro adventure for the game line... as in it predates the publication of the rulebook! It is pretty miserable as far as story and game flow are concerned so by all means tweak the hell out of it until it tastes good. Each scene and encounter is gimicked to introduce different game rules and mechanics: "This is how you make a social interaction test." "This is how you climb and jump" "This is how surprise works" "This fight causes fear" "This fight you should use your guns since the baddie looks really strong" "This fight you should use melee weapons since there is spilled fuel in the room". I ran it first as a bit of a throwaway adventure so my group could learn the game without major risk of thinking they were playing D&D still and blowing a more investigation and subtlety based mission (pretty much anything in print!).

Illumination is not bad. Edge of Darkness was an amazingly fun adventure to run and my players still have excited conversations about events from that mission. By ALL means give it a spin once your group is settled in. The official published adventures have so far proved to be very good quality, though keep in mind any time you see "mutants" or "psyker" in an adventure make sure to generate all of the stat-blocks you will need in advance, since these types of NPCs are by definition NOT "cookie cutter"

The Dark Reign website has several fan-written adventures posted. Some are pretty decent, others are terribad, so take your time and browse.

FFG also has 6 different fan-written adventures from a pair of writing contests that are available for free download.

Welcome to the Inquisition!

I realise this thread is a little on the old side but I wanted to say that my wife and I finished Shattered Hopes yesterday.

I didn't bother about modifying it but ran it as written and we had a gay ol' time. She did everything by the book, especially tactically, and destroyed the Antithesis stone with a well placed grenade before the deamon could even manifest. I have a feeling her catious, some would say paranoid, approach were due to her lacking decades of hack and slash experience that most gamers have.

Indeed, her behaviour did quite resemble an experienced hard core Guard veteran (she played Mir) who knows that barging into a room with guns blasting is a sure way to get killed.

Cool stuff all in all and she loved it. We have decided to try out the demo adventure of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3 just to get another perspective but I have a feeling we'll be back with Dark Heresy before long.

Edit: @ Kaihlik: btw, I cannot find the changes to Righteous fury, where be they?

bladerunner_35 said:

I'm very glad to hear you had such a good time. I fully recommend to keep trucking with DH, at least playing Edge of Darkness. I can only really be an echo to everyone else, but it really is a great scenario.

bladerunner_35 said:

I haven't go through point by point Rogue Trader definitely incorporates the errata and other lessons learned from Dark Heresy. However, some of the changes in RT are because it's a different, higher-powered game.

bladerunner_35 said:

Uh oh.

bladerunner_35 said:

Grab yourself a copy of the GMs kit, comes with a really nice GM screen with a shitload of handy quick reference charts for about everything except for the critical tables, comes with a booklet with a pre-written mission that's pretty good, a xenos creature generator and rules for poisons and toxins are expanded with some really choice stuff.

Thanks, as per an earlier recommendation of the kit I bought it a while back and it is pretty good I have to say.