Hello,

I wanted others opinions on how to handle the difficulty of a task. PC wanted to steal an object actively held by a Nemesis using a skulduggery check during the combat encounter.

I proposed the difficulty set would be the same as a melee or brawl targeting something specific using aim (2 setbacks, 1 if using an additional maneuver).

The other option is using the Nemesis perception as the difficulty.

Or should skulduggery even be allowed in this situation? It mentions pick pocketing but since it was in the Nemesis hand it may not apply.

Thank you in advance for your opinion.

Regards,

Shaun

Hrm, well if the nemesis had it stored in his pocket somewhere or around his neck, this would be great. Action movies are rife with this, the hero grabbing the McGuffin during the struggle so that when the nemesis falls off the cliff/hops onto his ship with a smirk/is thrown into the incinerator, the Hero PC can hold up the code cylinder/grenade pin/datacard and smile.

However, something the Nemesis is actually Holding during combat? That's not skulduggery. At least in my opinion. I would call for an aimed Brawl test to put your hand on it, and then an Opposed Brawn test giving the nemesis (or original wielder) a few bonus dice for starting with the best grip.

My character once illusioned being killed by his own apprentice after being made to fight (inquistor had his baby son in hands), he liberated him with a coordination check by slapping his bottom and catching him.

Skuduggery, brawl makes the most sense depending on whether they are carrying or in pocession of said item. In this case definitely brawl, and I would upgrade the dice pool if it was a weapon they are actively wielding (steal a lightsaber? Goodbye hand.)

I always have run Skulduggery as being the "tradecraft" of spies, and this includes the physical skills generally associated with D&D thieves (yes, I'm old enough that they remain thieves to me). From that base, pulling something out of someone's hand while that person is actively in combat against you is not an appropriate use of Skulduggery.

Well, since this is supposed to be "Yes, but/and"-system, if the player describes how their character does it, I would allow it.

But I wouldn't make it a combat check with difficulty like melee or brawl. I would make it a check opposed by the NPCs Coordination, Athletics or Vigilance, whatever is highest. Plus 2-3 setback dice because they are in combat. (And possibly a boost, if another PC can distract the NPC).

If the situation is such, that it is really implausible that the PC could do this (e.g. the Nemesis is focussing soley on the one PC and just said "Haha, you'll never steal this MacGuffin out of my hands!") then you could just set the difficulty to "impossible task", meaning a Destiny Point is required and the difficulty is 5 purple. Setbacks still apply.

Unless the character is a master thief with 5 yellow ability dice, the player will most likely stand a better chance with a normal melee or brawl check. And when they get a triumph, they can use that to steal the item right out of their opponents hand. Maybe they even end up with a spare advantage and the theft goes unnoticed.

May remote activated thermal detonators be firmly attached to all your MacGuffins

Fred

My answer to "Can I steal the object out of his hand?" was "Yes, but not with Skulduggery."

When the player asks questions with qualifiers added in, those question usually have to be stepped back to their most basic forms before "Yes, and/but" becomes appropriate.

I recently watched the movie "Rush Hour" where you can see Jackie Chan teaching Chris Tucker how to grab a gun from someones hand. It is possible to disarm a person even if they are trying to hold on to their weapon. So what your player wanted to do was something cleary possible and doable.

The only real questions would be :
- what check to make ?

- what difficulty to use ?

Skulduggery could fit the bill. Remember that stealing something is not always about stealth, but sometimes creating a distraction or using speed. So maybe the character fakes a move to the right so the Nemesis would raise his guard on that side and lower is guard on the other, leaving the hand holding the object vulnerable to a quick steal. In this case, I'd probably advocate an opposed check against the Nemesis Vigilance rating, maybe adding 1 or 2 setbacks depending on the importance of said object and the general chaos surrounding that fight. I wouldn't add Adversary or other defensive bonus to this checks difficulty.

Brawl could also fit the bill. The character grabs the Nemesis hands and twists it in a way that he losses all strength in his hand, allowing the character to grab the object with relative ease. In this case, since it's a melee attack, the difficulty would be 2 purple with 2 setback added for specified aim effect. Adversary and other defensive bonus would be included in this check since it's a brawl attack.

Coordination, Athletics, Stealth could also be used, but your player should have a pretty good story to motivate those skill uses.

Hope this helps

" underhanded or unscrupulous behavior; trickery."

Opposed Athletics, not Skulduggery. Yanking something out of someone's hand is not trickery, it's a tug- o-war.

Why not just make a Brawl check and spend Advantage on the swipe?

Why not just make a Brawl check and spend Advantage on the swipe?

If you make it that simple everyone in the group will use it all the time. It needs to be difficult or it will quickly be abused.

Opposed Athletics, not Skulduggery. Yanking something out of someone's hand is not trickery, it's a tug- o-war.

It's not always a tug-o-war... You can learn easy to use techniques to disarm an opponent that don't require great strength.

If the player describes his action has just trying to yank out the object from the opponent's grasp, then I agree it's a simple tug-o-war with an opposed Athletics check.

But it could be other skills too...

If my player asked to grab an opponents gun out of their hands, I'd say : "You can do that, how do you do it ?"

And then, I'd choose the skill to roll depending on his description.

Case 1 : "He's holding a polearm, I grab the shaft and pull it out of his hands" :

Verdict : Opposed Athletics check

Case 2 : "There are big explosions, he's focused on shooting my buddies, the roar of starship racing across would cover my footsteps. I try to sneak up on him and yank it by surprise"

Verdict : Stealth check opposed to opponents Vigilance, add boost for explosions/straships, add 2 setback because he's using this weapon to save his life, upgrade once because he's brawnier then the player.

Case 3 : "My character is well trained in arm to arm combat (got 4 ranks in brawl), so he knows techniques to disarm an opponent. I grab his arm and twist it, pulling on his pinky finger to have him release his grip then I pull the gun from his hands"

Verdict : Brawl check opposed to opponents Resilience, add 2 setback for the special effect desired.

Case 4 : "We are in the middle of a huge jungle, I try to looked very scared, I scream at him "oh my god, a Rancor" and then I start to turn around, looking like i'm about to flee.. then when he turns to look back, I grab his gun with lightning reflexes"

Verdict : Deception check opposed to opponents Cool, add 2 setback because of the small opening the opponent is lowering his guard, upgrade once because he's brawnier then the player.

Case 5 : "We are in the secured room where the auto-destruct button his, i'm facing off with the dud who wants to blow up my ship. I put a large smile on my face and tell the guy "before we fight to the death, let's shake hands like civilized people"

Verdict : Charm check opposed to Discipline, add 2 setback to take the swartz ring from his finger while shaking his hand.

There are numerous ways and skills to use if you want to disarm someone.

Why not just make a Brawl check and spend Advantage on the swipe?

If you make it that simple everyone in the group will use it all the time. It needs to be difficult or it will quickly be abused.

Opposed Athletics, not Skulduggery. Yanking something out of someone's hand is not trickery, it's a tug- o-war.

It's not always a tug-o-war... You can learn easy to use techniques to disarm an opponent that don't require great strength.

If the player describes his action has just trying to yank out the object from the opponent's grasp, then I agree it's a simple tug-o-war with an opposed Athletics check.

But it could be other skills too...

If my player asked to grab an opponents gun out of their hands, I'd say : "You can do that, how do you do it ?"

And then, I'd choose the skill to roll depending on his description.

Case 1 : "He's holding a polearm, I grab the shaft and pull it out of his hands" :

Verdict : Opposed Athletics check

Case 2 : "There are big explosions, he's focused on shooting my buddies, the roar of starship racing across would cover my footsteps. I try to sneak up on him and yank it by surprise"

Verdict : Stealth check opposed to opponents Vigilance, add boost for explosions/straships, add 2 setback because he's using this weapon to save his life, upgrade once because he's brawnier then the player.

Case 3 : "My character is well trained in arm to arm combat (got 4 ranks in brawl), so he knows techniques to disarm an opponent. I grab his arm and twist it, pulling on his pinky finger to have him release his grip then I pull the gun from his hands"

Verdict : Brawl check opposed to opponents Resilience, add 2 setback for the special effect desired.

Case 4 : "We are in the middle of a huge jungle, I try to looked very scared, I scream at him "oh my god, a Rancor" and then I start to turn around, looking like i'm about to flee.. then when he turns to look back, I grab his gun with lightning reflexes"

Verdict : Deception check opposed to opponents Cool, add 2 setback because of the small opening the opponent is lowering his guard, upgrade once because he's brawnier then the player.

Case 5 : "We are in the secured room where the auto-destruct button his, i'm facing off with the dud who wants to blow up my ship. I put a large smile on my face and tell the guy "before we fight to the death, let's shake hands like civilized people"

Verdict : Charm check opposed to Discipline, add 2 setback to take the swartz ring from his finger while shaking his hand.

There are numerous ways and skills to use if you want to disarm someone.

I understand that you can't make too easy or else it will be abused...

But opposed athletics check could also be pretty easy...

Master Bounty Hunter : Br 4, At 0

Pirate Captain : Br 4, At 0

Smuggler Baron : Br 2, At 0
Assassin Droid : Br 4, At 0
Black Sun Vigo : Br 3, At 0
Emperor's Hand : Br 4, At 2
Rebel Cell Leader : Br 3, At 0

Imperial Assassin : Br 3, At 2
Imperial Royal Guard : Br 3, At 2

Those are all the relevant Nemesis from that SWRPG Cards that I had. So an Opposed Athletics check would not be that hard to pass.

Anway... right now, RAW stats that to disarm an opponent, you need a Triumph on a melee check. You'd then need a maneuver to pick it up.
Since there are not called shots in this game (mostly), you could just ask your player to roll a brawl attack and see if he rolls a Triumph or 3 advantages (not sure about this one).

Does the player describe his move as tug-of-war, or as sleight of hand?

Tug-of-war? I'd say PC's Athletics vs. NPC's Athletics.

Sleigh of hand? I'd say PC's Skulduggery vs. NPC's Vigilance.

I understand that you can't make too easy or else it will be abused...

But opposed athletics check could also be pretty easy...

Master Bounty Hunter : Br 4, At 0

Pirate Captain : Br 4, At 0

Smuggler Baron : Br 2, At 0

Assassin Droid : Br 4, At 0

Black Sun Vigo : Br 3, At 0

Emperor's Hand : Br 4, At 2

Rebel Cell Leader : Br 3, At 0

Imperial Assassin : Br 3, At 2

Imperial Royal Guard : Br 3, At 2

Those are all the relevant Nemesis from that SWRPG Cards that I had. So an Opposed Athletics check would not be that hard to pass.

Anway... right now, RAW stats that to disarm an opponent, you need a Triumph on a melee check. You'd then need a maneuver to pick it up.

Since there are not called shots in this game (mostly), you could just ask your player to roll a brawl attack and see if he rolls a Triumph or 3 advantages (not sure about this one).

Adversary would apply in the contested roll and I'd make despairs an automatic injury/critical.

My answer to "Can I steal the object out of his hand?" was "Yes, but not with Skulduggery."

When the player asks questions with qualifiers added in, those question usually have to be stopped back to the most basic form before "Yes, and/but" becomes appropriate.

I like to encourage the use of different skills in combat. Variety keeps it interesting. Of course, allowing players to attempt an action is not the same as agreeing to their interpretation of the game mechanics to do so, as HappyDaze points out.

The most basic way to grab something being held by an opponent is to target the item with a brawl attack, using the Aim maneuver. (EotE p.201) This would not in itself be a disarm, but would mean that you gain a hold on the weapon, then either use advantage or triumph to wrench it away immediately, or initiate an opposed checks in later rounds to see who gains control of the item.

Now, if the player described a way in which he is using misdirection and guile to lift the item, I would allow skulduggery. In fact, against minions, I would probably still make it an average difficulty, with 1 net success needed to dislodge an item, and either additional successes or advantage/triumph to gain possession.

Rival or Nemesis characters would have an opposed roll against Perception, but just like skulduggery for taking it, the GM could make a case for using one of the target's better skills. In the case of taking a blaster, the target may have security training that includes the possibility of someone trying to take your sidearm, and so, in the same way weapon maintenance can be done using the appropriate weapon skill, (EotE p. 158) a skilled gunslinger would oppose such a disarm using Ranged (Light) instead of perception.

Looks like I missed a good chunk of today's comments.

It could still be done on a regular brawl check, but as 2P51 points out, you don't want to make it too simple. In the case of taking a minion's item, I don't see a problem with it being done often. The minion probably won't last much longer anyway. If disarming a minion, I would consider the group Wound Threshold and number of minions to be unchanged, but without a weapon, 1 of the minions would not be participating in the combat skill check, and thus the minions' next attack is less effective. I personally would see this as a great way to include less combat heavy PCs in the encounter.

edit: add

As for it being that simple, it's simple, but unlikely. It takes 3 advantage to force a target to drop a melee or ranged weapon (or item, I suppose) See the table for Spending Advantage/Triumph in Combat. You could use a maneuver to pick it up. Two more advantage will give you the maneuver for free and immediate, so perhaps it could be described as "catching" the item as it falls. I would rule that another 3 advantage would allow the attacker to gain control of the dropped weapon as an immediate incidental, thus getting the result you wanted. Is that the best use for 6 advantage or a couple of Triumph on a Brawl check? Maybe, maybe not. It would be cool, though.

This sounds a lot like disarming an opponent, usually 3 Advantage or a Triumph on a combat check. That's probably a good place to start for your decision.

One way to handle this situation is to offer various difficultys for different skills, give the player a couple of choices that have different trade offs. Eg:

Skullduggery suggests taking it without the opponent knowing, that sounds Daunting even if you're not in a fight with them, probably with an Upgrade too and at least 2 Setback for being in combat. DDDCSS

Coordination would be to do a Jackie Chan and twist it out of their hands, Probably opposed to the targets Coordination, with a Setback for other NPC's in the engagement or Boosts for PC's

Athletics would be ripping it out of their hands, opposed Athletics with the same boost/setback as the coordination option,

Cool is an interesting option, it usually represents patience and choosing "the right moment" I would offer this as an opposed check against Vigilance, boost/setback based on the engagement.

A straight up Brawl check with the normal difficulty and requirements of 3A/T to disarm. If they "Aim for a specific part & suffer 2 additional Setback" I would allow them to get the item on a success only, but won't cause damage to the target.

Melee could be used too, but that's going to knock the item to the ground, not into the PC's hands.

Why not just make a Brawl check and spend Advantage on the swipe?

If you make it that simple everyone in the group will use it all the time. It needs to be difficult or it will quickly be abused.

How is a athletic check harder? Most people have more points in athletic than brawl. And using an opposed check kills the adversary talent too (I am not targeting the weapon and the npc is just opposing to my move against the weapon).

Disarm and spend a maneuver afterwards to catch the weapon, thus no double aim that turn.

Disarming an opponent doesn't necessarily mean just knocking the item out of the opponent's grip, so I'd go with a Brawl check, add 2 Setback for targeting specific item, the swiper can Aim, Upgrade for Adversary as appropriate, and if the check results in at least 3 Advantage...voila! No need to add extra (Opposed or Competitive) checks. I see the act of swiping a bomb remote, weapon, or fancy hat as part and parcel of a Brawl-based struggle.

I appreciate everyone's feedback. Thank you!

This sounds a lot like disarming an opponent, usually 3 Advantage or a Triumph on a combat check. That's probably a good place to start for your decision.

I agree with you.

One option is also to allow usage of brawl, with aim called shot (i.e. same as targeting targets weapon instead of him). So, attacker takes aim maneuver, and gets two setback dice (also apply adversary normally), and if he succeeds, he graps the item. Possibly GM could allow him to use skullduggery instead of brawl.

There are many ways to make this work, and it's often situational (and depends on group), so I don't think we can give one correct way.

Adversary would apply in the contested roll and I'd make despairs an automatic injury/critical.

Just gonna leave this here on that note: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs9yhpMTGxc

Just gonna leave this here on that note: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs9yhpMTGxc

Please warn people before you post a link to a Jim Carrey movie.

I really hate, loathe, and despise that guy.

Just gonna leave this here on that note: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs9yhpMTGxc

Please warn people before you post a link to a Jim Carrey movie.

I really hate, loathe, and despise that guy.

But honestly, is this because I was trash-talking Oscar Hammerstein II in that other thread?