I'm not really arguing the ruling as it does seem clear in this particular card...but it does create some weird sub-phase of timing that could make other cards have some strange interactions. Each resolution of a die creates a "window" for actions that trigger on dice resolving correct?

Yes, each die resolution can potentially be the trigger for an ability or effect.

This is pretty well covered in the RRG. Look up triggers and "limbo".

FFG has actually done a very good job of laying out the terminology for this game. Many of us have been playing games that use similar words and we make this mistake of thinking other game's words and actions apply to this game. This is never the case! I'm guilty of this as well. I have noticed that every time I have raised a question about the rules it is because I was assuming something to be true rather than just reading the rules for what they are.

There has been no official ruling on this and the conversation continues for several posts. there is some confusion on the issue, dismissing my post with a meme doesn't make the issue go away

Official will happen until on or after the 1st of December, because that is how FFG rolls, they do not jump into threads at all.

The reason the discussion continues is we have a few people making problems that don't exist.

As for the meme, you posted a complete throw away in a rules thread, did you expect people to find it helpful or funny?

The rules clearly state you resolve dice one at a time and as many of the same type as you wish.

See, now you're the one adding words to the rules. It doesn't say "as many...as you wish." All it says is you resolve one or more. There is no detailed timing for what that means, or how the order flows. It's not at all unreasonable to think that the action is to select dice that are in your pool, and resolve those, and the "one or more" simply means you can select as many as are in your pool.

This is not perfectly clear. It could easily be - most of FFG's current games include timing charts that would make this really obvious. But their Star Wars products are often targeted at mass markets, and they try to get away without anything that complex. They did the same thing with X-wing, and the rules are still a total nightmare to this day because of it.

The rules clearly state you resolve dice one at a time and as many of the same type as you wish.

See, now you're the one adding words to the rules. It doesn't say "as many...as you wish." All it says is you resolve one or more. There is no detailed timing for what that means, or how the order flows. It's not at all unreasonable to think that the action is to select dice that are in your pool, and resolve those, and the "one or more" simply means you can select as many as are in your pool.

This is not perfectly clear. It could easily be - most of FFG's current games include timing charts that would make this really obvious. But their Star Wars products are often targeted at mass markets, and they try to get away without anything that complex. They did the same thing with X-wing, and the rules are still a total nightmare to this day because of it.

I have added no language to the rules and posted the rules verbatim in a post prior to what you have quoted. "As many... as you wish" is merely restating the direct rule in different language:

Each die side has a symbol on it (see page 9). A player may

resolve one or more dice in their pool that have the same

symbol, one at a time (unless adding a modified die, then the

dice are resolved simultaneously). To resolve a die, a player

must pay any costs and carry out the effect represented by

the symbol on that die. Then they return it to the card that it

came from. [RRG, page 14]

The situation in question is clearly defined in the rule book as I have pointed out. The chart on page 11 illustrates the Areas of Play defined on page 10. "Limbo" only applies to events, not dice. Dice are only in one place while In Play: the Dice Pool. A die not In Play is in one of the Out of Play areas: Dice on Cards or Set Aside Dice. Page 14 (which I have quoted again above) clearly defines how to resolve dice. A re-rolled dice is STILL IN PLAY and a part of the Dice Pool. The RRG does not require the player to determine in advance which die will be resolved during the Resolve Dice action. It simply states that they must all be the same symbol, proper rules for modifying dice and resource cost dice must be followed, and that they are resolved one dice at at time.

Where in the rules can you argue that it states dice that were just re-rolled can not be resolved?

Wording is important on this one and I can't believe that december first does not see a revised version of the Rules Reference. However the qui gon jin item is clear now. Dice are resolved separately. Now let's wait for the clear statement on declaring how many or not declaring how many. I think this topic can be locked it has served it's purpose.

The RRG does not require the player to determine in advance which die will be resolved during the Resolve Dice action. It simply states that they must all be the same symbol, proper rules for modifying dice and resource cost dice must be followed, and that they are resolved one dice at at time.

Where in the rules can you argue that it states dice that were just re-rolled can not be resolved?

The issue lies in the interpretation of "resolve one or more dice". You're reading it as "Resolve dice one at a time, and stop when you want". Others read it as "Resolve X dice." All the in play, out of play, limbo, etc quoting is nifty, but doesn't really have anything to do with the concern people have, which you seem aggressively intent on not even trying to understand.

Part of the issue is that if it is "Pick a symbol. Pick a die. Resolve a die. Pick and resolve another die, repeat as needed" it could have been phrased much differently, and more clearly. A lack of definition for resolving dice - separately from the resolving action - confuses that issue further. What are the steps to "resolve a die"? If it's "Pick, pay costs, result", then it would more obviously be the way you (and, again, I) interpret it. But we don't have that.

I trust this will be at the top of the FAQ list, and even trust that it will land where you think it will... but it takes the rosiest of fanboy glasses to not even acknowledge the possibility of ambiguity.

I have another question, since the thread is about Qui-Gon.

How does he interact with Force Protection? You resolve one special result, and can allocate three shields.

Do these three shields you can allocate the any character allow him to resolve his ability three times, or do they just act like a single die with three shields on it?

I ask because they are allocated individually, rather than in a lump, but are still part of a single die resolution.

I have another question, since the thread is about Qui-Gon.

How does he interact with Force Protection? You resolve one special result, and can allocate three shields.

Do these three shields you can allocate the any character allow him to resolve his ability three times, or do they just act like a single die with three shields on it?

I ask because they are allocated individually, rather than in a lump, but are still part of a single die resolution.

QUEUE p16:
After abilities enter an imaginary line once they meet their trigger conditions, known as the queue. They wait in the queue until the trigger condition is complete. If the trigger condition was part of another ability, that entire ability is completed before the after ability resolves. Abilities in the queue are resolved in the order they entered it. Each one must fully resolve before the next one resolves. If, during the resolution of an ability in the queue, another ability is added, it moves to “the end” of the queue and is resolved last.
Abilities enter and leave the queue in chronological order, based on a “first in, first out” principle.

If two or more abilities have the same trigger condition, the player who controls the battlefield decides the order they enter the queue.

So you have the ability to create 3 shields and do so one at a time to create three shields on Qui-Gon which forms a queue with 3 instances of 1 sheild, Qui-Gons' ability triggers, as he is gaining 1 or more shield. Now you complete the queue.

The wording is very clear to me. It says to resolve one or more dice of the same symbol. Nowhere does it say you must declare how many dice you will resolve in an action. Adding definition to the ruleset is just that. Adding. Keep it to the rules as written.

So you have the ability to create 3 shields and do so one at a time to create three shields on Qui-Gon which forms a queue with 3 instances of 1 sheild, Qui-Gons' ability triggers, as he is gaining 1 or more shield. Now you complete the queue.

This is contradictory. If you have 3 instances of "add shield" (because it's one at a time) then you trigger Qui-Gon's ability 3 times, because he's gaining 1 or more shields 3 times. It either resolves all at once, allocating the shields simultaneously and triggering the ability once, or it allocates each shield individually, and triggers any relevant abilities for each one.

The wording is very clear to me. It says to resolve one or more dice of the same symbol. Nowhere does it say you must declare how many dice you will resolve in an action. Adding definition to the ruleset is just that. Adding. Keep it to the rules as written.

Once again: The argument is that "resolve one or more dice" is the directive to declare how many dice you'll resolve, and even which dice those will be. Nobody is adding extra rules, they're just interpreting a specific line differently.

Consider the Force Protection question above. The ability says "Give 3 shields..." That makes it a single action, as Stone says, right? But if that were variable - say, "Give 1 shield per character" or "Give as many shields as you want to a single character", would that make each shield allocation a separate trigger? Or would it still be one big operation? Based on Force Protection, I think the same people arguing that "resolve one or more" happens one at a time would be arguing that "Give as many shields as you want" would be all at once.

The wording is very clear to me. It says to resolve one or more dice of the same symbol. Nowhere does it say you must declare how many dice you will resolve in an action. Adding definition to the ruleset is just that. Adding. Keep it to the rules as written.

Once again: The argument is that "resolve one or more dice" is the directive to declare how many dice you'll resolve, and even which dice those will be. Nobody is adding extra rules, they're just interpreting a specific line differently.

Consider the Force Protection question above. The ability says "Give 3 shields..." That makes it a single action, as Stone says, right? But if that were variable - say, "Give 1 shield per character" or "Give as many shields as you want to a single character", would that make each shield allocation a separate trigger? Or would it still be one big operation? Based on Force Protection, I think the same people arguing that "resolve one or more" happens one at a time would be arguing that "Give as many shields as you want" would be all at once.

The difference being we have an actual written rule that specifically states dice resolve one at a time. The rules for Play a Card From Hand, does not state this. "The player follows the card's instructions and then discards it. The card is in limbo while resolving it."

If I was a TO I would rule that the three shields are given out all at once, but I do agree that this card should be included in a FAQ for clarification. I might very well be wrong about FFG's intent for how this card should be played. As a QGJ fan, I WANT to be able to resolve his ability after every shield is assigned to him.

Hypoteticaly, if the correct interpretation is that you declare up front how many and which dice with the same symbol you are going to resolve. What then happens when the resolution of the first die results in one of the other chosen dice changeing symbol (f.ex. a reroll of that die)?

Hypoteticaly, if the correct interpretation is that you declare up front how many and which dice with the same symbol you are going to resolve. What then happens when the resolution of the first die results in one of the other chosen dice changeing symbol (f.ex. a reroll of that die)?

I would suggest going back and reading the last two pages of this forum, as we've been over this ground.

Presently, I don't know how "resolve one or more dice" is being interpreted as having to choose upfront. If that WAS the case, I believe there would need to be a rule pertaining to the limitations of actions that can be performed on dice that have already been rolled in a turn. (We see these rules in X-wing and other games, but not Destiny.)

The difference being we have an actual written rule that specifically states dice resolve one at a time.

You can pick the dice as part of the action declaration, and still resolve them one at a time. I think people who believe you can't roll added dice are putting too much weight on the "resolve one or more", and you're definitely taking "one at a time" far more broadly than is actually required by the rules.

Last data point here, and then I surrender this obviously vain attempt at getting people to respect the opinions of others:

The latest Knights of Ren podcast addresses this as a still-unresolved issue. They don't go into the differing sides because it's not really on topic, but they call it out as unresolved and something they expect to see addressed in the RR update which is supposed to come with the release this week. Given that they had sitdown time with the designer just a few weeks ago, and they still present it as an unknown, I think it's fair to say there's reasonable doubt as to how it should be played.

The crux of their argument is this:

A player may resolve one or more dice in their pool that have the same symbol, one at a time.

The action is to resolve one or more dice - so you pick the dice at the beginning as part of the action declaration. There's a certain logic to this from other systems - declaring an action often includes declaration of the target. The phrasing "one or more dice" also sounds like it's a selection definition, not just rolling until you run out of dice or don't feel like it.

Again, not saying I agree with this interpretation - but I really don't think the rules are all that cut-and-dried on it.

Which other systems are you referring to? It would help the discussion if we knew which other ones you are thinking of. Trying to understand where you are coming from.

Which other systems are you referring to? It would help the discussion if we knew which other ones you are thinking of. Trying to understand where you are coming from.

A good example is the Arkham Horror LCG - same company, released within a month of each other, similar structure to the abilities, and Lukas Litzsinger is even listed as a playtester for it, so we know there's some cross-pollination.

Here's (part of) their definition of Target:

Discussion here is good, but emailing the developers is better. If you have a question, send it there.

Ultimately, I wouldn't expect an FAQ for Destiny before next May or June, FFG typically takes around 6 months to get the FAQ's out for games after releases. Could be totally different since this is a CCG, but they need to have enough time to compile questions before sending one out.

Till then, you need to clarify any of this stuff ahead of time with whatever official is running the tournament since it will be their call until an FAQ comes out. Outside of tournament play, it doesn't really matter which way you play it until official clarifications come out because there will always be die hards that can't see it any other way than the way they interpret it.

Discussion here is good, but emailing the developers is better. If you have a question, send it there.

Ultimately, I wouldn't expect an FAQ for Destiny before next May or June, FFG typically takes around 6 months to get the FAQ's out for games after releases. Could be totally different since this is a CCG, but they need to have enough time to compile questions before sending one out.

Emailing wouldn't help here at all, FFG doesn't generally comment on rules issues for unreleased items.

Rumor has it that they're going to drop a big update to the rule book tomorrow with release though, so hopefully we won't have to wait six months.

Hypoteticaly, if the correct interpretation is that you declare up front how many and which dice with the same symbol you are going to resolve. What then happens when the resolution of the first die results in one of the other chosen dice changeing symbol (f.ex. a reroll of that die)?

I would suggest going back and reading the last two pages of this forum, as we've been over this ground.

Presently, I don't know how "resolve one or more dice" is being interpreted as having to choose upfront. If that WAS the case, I believe there would need to be a rule pertaining to the limitations of actions that can be performed on dice that have already been rolled in a turn. (We see these rules in X-wing and other games, but not Destiny.)

I would interpret permission to "resolve one or more dice" as permission to resolve 1 die OR to resolve 2 dice OR to resolve 3 dice OR etc, etc. Permission to resolve 3 dice isn't the same as permission to resolve 1 die followed by permission to resolve another followed by permission to resolve another.

In that sense, I see this as necessitating an up front selection because otherwise I can't say "I'm resolving X dice" when you permission is effectively to resolve X dice.

'one at a time' just tells us how to resolve the X dice we're looking to resolve. It lets us know to do them sequentially and not simultaneously. It doesn't let us choose to resolve EXTRA dice that we didn't already say we wanted to resolve. That would effectively entail taking another Resolve Dice action.

Hypoteticaly, if the correct interpretation is that you declare up front how many and which dice with the same symbol you are going to resolve. What then happens when the resolution of the first die results in one of the other chosen dice changeing symbol (f.ex. a reroll of that die)?

I would suggest going back and reading the last two pages of this forum, as we've been over this ground.

Presently, I don't know how "resolve one or more dice" is being interpreted as having to choose upfront. If that WAS the case, I believe there would need to be a rule pertaining to the limitations of actions that can be performed on dice that have already been rolled in a turn. (We see these rules in X-wing and other games, but not Destiny.)

I would interpret permission to "resolve one or more dice" as permission to resolve 1 die OR to resolve 2 dice OR to resolve 3 dice OR etc, etc. Permission to resolve 3 dice isn't the same as permission to resolve 1 die followed by permission to resolve another followed by permission to resolve another.

In that sense, I see this as necessitating an up front selection because otherwise I can't say "I'm resolving X dice" when you permission is effectively to resolve X dice.

'one at a time' just tells us how to resolve the X dice we're looking to resolve. It lets us know to do them sequentially and not simultaneously. It doesn't let us choose to resolve EXTRA dice that we didn't already say we wanted to resolve. That would effectively entail taking another Resolve Dice action.

Hypoteticaly, if the correct interpretation is that you declare up front how many and which dice with the same symbol you are going to resolve. What then happens when the resolution of the first die results in one of the other chosen dice changeing symbol (f.ex. a reroll of that die)?

I would suggest going back and reading the last two pages of this forum, as we've been over this ground.

Presently, I don't know how "resolve one or more dice" is being interpreted as having to choose upfront. If that WAS the case, I believe there would need to be a rule pertaining to the limitations of actions that can be performed on dice that have already been rolled in a turn. (We see these rules in X-wing and other games, but not Destiny.)

I would interpret permission to "resolve one or more dice" as permission to resolve 1 die OR to resolve 2 dice OR to resolve 3 dice OR etc, etc. Permission to resolve 3 dice isn't the same as permission to resolve 1 die followed by permission to resolve another followed by permission to resolve another.

In that sense, I see this as necessitating an up front selection because otherwise I can't say "I'm resolving X dice" when you permission is effectively to resolve X dice.

'one at a time' just tells us how to resolve the X dice we're looking to resolve. It lets us know to do them sequentially and not simultaneously. It doesn't let us choose to resolve EXTRA dice that we didn't already say we wanted to resolve. That would effectively entail taking another Resolve Dice action.

You've added language that does not exist in the rules and the rules clearly state that dice are resolved one at a time (unless combining with a modified value dice.)

I'm not adding any language, but I am substituting numbers to illustrate my point.

"A player may resolve [one or more] dice in their pool that have the same side, one at a time..."

"A player may resolve [three] dice in their pool that have the same side, one at a time..."

The question, that we can't answer right now, is whether or not all dice have to be chosen up front. I feel that the simplest interpretation is to replace "one or more" with your chosen number and go forward with your permission to resolve one, two, three, etc dice. The game already has a mechanism for resolving future dice added to your pool... taking another Resolve Dice action. I do see the opposing interpretation... I just don't think it's correct.

No real point arguing though. FFG is pretty good about cleaning up ambiguous wording and this is ambiguous. We simply have no way to know what they intended short of an FAQ or Errata.

Hypoteticaly, if the correct interpretation is that you declare up front how many and which dice with the same symbol you are going to resolve. What then happens when the resolution of the first die results in one of the other chosen dice changeing symbol (f.ex. a reroll of that die)?

I would suggest going back and reading the last two pages of this forum, as we've been over this ground.

Presently, I don't know how "resolve one or more dice" is being interpreted as having to choose upfront. If that WAS the case, I believe there would need to be a rule pertaining to the limitations of actions that can be performed on dice that have already been rolled in a turn. (We see these rules in X-wing and other games, but not Destiny.)

I would interpret permission to "resolve one or more dice" as permission to resolve 1 die OR to resolve 2 dice OR to resolve 3 dice OR etc, etc. Permission to resolve 3 dice isn't the same as permission to resolve 1 die followed by permission to resolve another followed by permission to resolve another.

In that sense, I see this as necessitating an up front selection because otherwise I can't say "I'm resolving X dice" when you permission is effectively to resolve X dice.

'one at a time' just tells us how to resolve the X dice we're looking to resolve. It lets us know to do them sequentially and not simultaneously. It doesn't let us choose to resolve EXTRA dice that we didn't already say we wanted to resolve. That would effectively entail taking another Resolve Dice action.

You've added language that does not exist in the rules and the rules clearly state that dice are resolved one at a time (unless combining with a modified value dice.)

No real point arguing though. FFG is pretty good about cleaning up ambiguous wording and this is ambiguous. We simply have no way to know what they intended short of an FAQ or Errata.

And this is where I disagree. It's not ambiguous at all. There is no language (I've already covered this in previous posts) about picking dice, choosing ahead of time, or that dice that have been rolled that turn are somehow different than ones that haven't been. Such language does exist in X-wing. We CAN NOT infer or add language. All that is stated is you may choose to resolve any number of dice that have the same symbol one at a time. There is not language about declaring target dice (as is seen in X-wing) or that dice that have been rolled this round can not be rolled again (this language is also present in X-wing). I continue to bring this forward because I do not need numbers or any other language outside of the rules to argue my case. It is a fallacy to say "you don't know wait for the etra/FAQ" because until such a thing exists the written rules are law. As the rules stand, there has been no argument (that uses the rules of Destiny and ONLY the rules of Destiny) that holds up to scrutiny other than the one that claims all die In Play that are the same symbol may be played one at a time.

Not trying to split hairs here, just pointing out that we have enough language to figure this out without further explanation from FFG. I am also the first to admit when I'm wrong or have misread/understood the rules as I just did in another thread. I won't be surprised if this DOES NOT get covered in the next FAQ (that we might see tomorrow) as I figure FFG thinks this was pretty straight forward AND the Dooku example covers this as well. I hope they do though. It would give a few players peace of mind.

You've added language that does not exist in the rules and the rules clearly state that dice are resolved one at a time (unless combining with a modified value dice.)

What does resolving them one at a time mean? It means you fully resolve the effects of one die before moving to the next, rather than as one big simultaneous action. It means that multiple damage results can be distributed, and each counts as a unique instance of damage, etc.

It doesn't really say anything about whether you go back to the pool to pick a new die each time.