Watch him onscreen, especially in clone wars, he does not run the open to got shot by anyone. He keeps his head down and he controls the situations he gets into. That is the real strength of grievous.

Though good catch on Makashi flourish and makashi finish, replace them with corresponding talents to replenish his strain … and btw, he dies to a blaster fire for the exact reason that range weapons are his weakness. Even a bunch of Gangan with some gangan anti droid balls bring him down … Grievous just never engages into combat which involves him getting shot, at best he retreats from such occasions, uses droids with imperial Valor as meat shield …

The only moments when he engages against superior numbers is in melee combat and even then he uses stealth to compensate for his disadvantage. In the now decanonized Clone Wars from 2003 he immediately retreats from battle when the clone troopers join the fight and that is literally his most badass representation.

And yeah, he gets shot, a critical hit to his heart by Obi-Wan iirc.

So let me get this straight, not I as GM dictate this, Grievous as character does this. If his plans fail, well he is dead. Shot by some uncivilized blaster for a bad comedic effect. **** happens. Plans fail, but his modi operandi is certainly not to get into a firefight. He has minions for that, fleets and whole armies and he use them plentiful for that.
Your Nemesis NPCs are not supposed to be stupid (usually) and well aware of their weaknesses, they will act accordingly to avoid them.

And btw, I did intentionally not boosted his range defense, because he exactly died to blaster fire and avoided getting into firefights like the plague in canon. Soak 15 might be indeed a little to high, 10 + cortosis sounds actually better, but, hey, I think it turned out quite well for a 30s write up, just two impossible talents and maybe a little too much soak and I forgot cortosis. ;-)

An NPC using in-character planning is one thing. Saying "never let X happen" when speaking as the GM about an NPC makes it sound like plot armor/railroading to me. You last post clarifies it a bit, but I find that NPC plans rarely survive even being in the same sector as the PCs.

The original CW cartoon perfectly explains why Grevious would win in his intro and then get stomped by Obiwan later. When the general is training with Dooku (here:

OTOH, against Obiwan, Grevious has essentially none of fear, surprise, or intimidation. And in fact those are actually working against him, as Obiwan is the one showing up out of nowhere, the one who came there to deliberately fight, and the one essentially showing up Grevious in front of the separatist leadership he had just been arguing with. And Grevious's attempt to throw the Jedi off his game by exploiting his robot body backfires because spinning your swords is apparently not actually good in a swordfight - it does seem rather exploitable if the opponent isn't freaking out.

Moreover, the first CW cartoon also Mace Windu crush Grevious's chest like an empty soda can during his escape for Coruscant, so the cyborg wasn't wheezing with every breath during his first battle. But he had suffered that critical injury prior to his battle against Obiwan. The later CGI clone wars series seems to change that though.

Finally, Obwan is a main character in the prequels and is in the first 6 movies. Meanwhile, the Jedi Grevious defeats are essentially bit parts. A main character is way more likely to defeat an enemy leader in single combat than Council Member #7. If you look at what happens on screen, Padme is far 'tougher' than the average Jedi Knight despite their force powers and blaster reflection because a bunch of them drop in the Genosian arena while she is just fine.

True true. But still. Its hard to imagine what would have happened if obi-wan didn't have that blaster( plenty of shuddering from me as I imagine obi-wan's death)

True true. But still. Its hard to imagine what would have happened if obi-wan didn't have that blaster( plenty of shuddering from me as I imagine obi-wan's death)

Force-grabbed Grievous and tossed him over the edge of the platform?

Maybe. Hmmmmmmmmmm

Especially at higher XP amounts, one guy simply cannot stand alone against even a small group of 4-5 PCs. Make up groups of opposing NPCs, and one or more of them can be Inquisitors if you like. The others can be elite Imperial troops, bounty hunters, assassin droids, or whatever others fit best into your story.

I have beat this issue over the head, already, and for that, I apologize, but it seems sort of weird for the material to have Vader, or Grievous, pwn whole groups of Jedi, mostly by themselves, and yet this system, either because of its streamlined crafting of NPCs, or something else, can't emulate it.

As a fun exercise, would someone who has watched the Battle of Hypori maybe give me an idea of how this system might try it, rather than "many ALWAYS trumps one!"? General Grievous isn't even a Jedi, and yet he fought several Council members (Shaak-ti, Ki-Adi Mundi, Ayla Secura), and only had problems when the Clone Troopers, and their many heavy weapons/ a GUNSHIP showed up. Maybe the system doesn't want to straight up allow this fight to happen, but eventually, your party will begin to approach the levels of skill above, and still, as a group, fight the enemy that has hounded them. How would you conduct the fight scene at the Battle of Hypori, before maybe several Jedi spent some Threats/Despair to call in the troopers on Grievous? Sorry to whine, but it just seems like the system rules out the BBEG.

You want Grievous to stand up against multiple opponents? Double actions, free double maneuvers thanks to his arms, adversary 5, parry 5, defensive stance 5, sun djem, makashi flourish, makashi finish, imperial valor,, soak ~15, wt 20, brawn 7 , agi 7, presence 4, int 3, willpower 3, cunning 4. lightsaber 4, leadership 1, warfare 5, discipline 3, vigilance 5, stealth 4, coercion 3, etc

Now let him never ever attack when he might get shot and only engage when he can drop on someone. Done. It's not like the game can not offer opponents who can actually stand against even very experience groups. The game usually just don't use stats for outlandish strong 5000+ xp adversaries. By the time you reach such strong PCs who can deal with such monsters you should be able to judge what kind of adversaries you need to challenge your group.

Not "Done" not even close. If you re going to dictate that he can't be in a situation that he might get shot, then you're using GM fiat. That might be OK once in awhile, depending on your group. but doing it regularly usually leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. Besides, didn't Greivous die to blaster fire? Soak 15 is a little much considering that he dies to a fairly ordinary blaster fired by a guy with no reason to have any special blaster talents. Oh, and Greivous can't use Makashi Finish or Makashi Flourish without a Force Rating.

Kenobi had already done a bit of damage to him by that point. Cutting off a couple of hands, at the very least. I saw the tail end of the movie recently but I was hanging out with family so sometimes I missed a bit here and there when someone was talking to me. In terms of game mechanics, there were several critical hits, and I then topping those off with the blaster shot with a high crit roll.....

But yeah, I agree with you. Soak 15 is too much, and simply 'deciding' that an NPC can't be killed is cheese. That's why when I GM, canon is whatever I **** well SAY it is, and if the players are smart enough to think of a plan, stupid enough to try it, and lucky enough to survive, I have absolutely zero problem completely re-writing The Way Things Happened in the Movie/Book. Bumping off Vader, corrupting Huma, sending Emperor Prosek to another world with magic, running against Dunkelzahn for president, whatever, I'll allow it. For *that particular campaign*, anyway. Assuming of course that whatever they try actually works and has its desired effect.

This may or may not be relevant to the discussion, but here it is anyway, . I think when these issues are rendered down they ultimately ask this question: how can we have satisfying conclusions with our nemeses (grievous, palpatine, vader, etc...) once we have reached high xp levels? I'm not sure there is any one correct answer to this. However, I think one possible answer requires the players to trust their GM (and for the GM to be worthy of that trust) to generate a satisfying encounter/conclusion even if the GM has to fudge a little bit and doesn't exactly use the RAW. Grievous dies when the story is done with him. Vader dies after being redeemed by his son. In a movie, the villain loses when it is thematically (or dramatically) appropriate. That's extremely hard to replicate in a game if there isn't any trust between the players and GM.

This may or may not be relevant to the discussion, but here it is anyway, . I think when these issues are rendered down they ultimately ask this question: how can we have satisfying conclusions with our nemeses (grievous, palpatine, vader, etc...) once we have reached high xp levels? I'm not sure there is any one correct answer to this. However, I think one possible answer requires the players to trust their GM (and for the GM to be worthy of that trust) to generate a satisfying encounter/conclusion even if the GM has to fudge a little bit and doesn't exactly use the RAW. Grievous dies when the story is done with him. Vader dies after being redeemed by his son. In a movie, the villain loses when it is thematically (or dramatically) appropriate. That's extremely hard to replicate in a game if there isn't any trust between the players and GM.

That's true. OTOH, I also think that part of the value in playing a game versus more scripted forms of entertainment is that things can often deviate from the expected dramatic outcome, and unusual events or successful outplays that circumvent a big dramatic fight often have their own value that can make up for a less dramatic showdown. Sometimes the most memorable fights are going to be the ones where an important badguy dies like a chump due to rolls or a clever PC plan, especially if the players are used to GMs fudging to save plot important NPCs.

Players, even in the same group, don't necessarily share the same preferences. One person might like the big lengthy showdown that always feels close even if it takes some fudging. Another might prefer to let the dice fall where they may, it if it means that the PCs stomp the baddies with good stats and tactics, then its all the better - and if it goes the other way, it's their job to either figure out a way to salvage the situation or manage to escape. Another might not like big set piece scenes in the first place and try to circumvent things on a more strategic level. Some players might like the sort of 'setting/canon tourism' aspect of Star Wars with lots of references, cameos, and other bits that show off stuff they already liked about Star Wars. Other people might feel like 'this is the Star Wars story about our characters, not Luke and Anakin' and expect things to play out differently from the books and movies and TV shows, or that the game will be in a different part of a huge galaxy so they play in their own epic space adventure without movie stuff getting in the way. Being able to figure out what your players like and try to find ways to balance their different tastes is part of what makes a GM good.

Fudging to keep things on track isn't necessarily wrong, but it can be bad for many player priorities and it's important to keep that in mind.

I'm considering adding an Inquisitor to my game and looking at Star Wars Rebels for inspiration I've decided that as a powerful representative of the emperors power they would have an entourage consisting of less powerful npc's which is frankly any npc not the Inquisitor.

ISB Agent

Bounty Hunter

Stormtrooper Commander

These I would build out

The commander based off of the instructor from lead by example picking maybe 2 appropriate talents from this tree focusing on supporting abilities of course the commander would have the ability to commandeer local troops (2 squads of stormtroopers would be 4×4 man minion groups and 2 sergents) Now you've added a significant force of minions 2 rivals and your nemesis level stormtrooper commander

ISB Agent I would focus on the spy careers particularly the scout and infiltrator picking 2 talents to build him out (in the entourage of a Inquisitor he should be important)

For the bounty hunter 2 ranks of Quick strike and lots of toys consider a wrist mounted repeating blaster pistol, a shoulder mounted net launcher a jet pack a rifle with an underslung bola launcher (remember bounty hunters tend to take prisoners) some tough armour and a knife or Melee weapon also don't forget the grenades and throwing weapons (another net and some knives)

This has taken your single nemesis + encounter and changed it adding threats at minion level up to nemesis. Please remember the ideal response for your pc's is to they should never feel like they can take on the might of the Empire because the reality even the jedi order battle hardened as it was at the end of the clone wars couldn't stand up to it.

You want the Inquisitor and company tracking down your pc's to make them feel defeated before a die is even rolled hit home the impossible nature of their task in opossing the empire and then remind the players that as long as they live they have hope and rebellions are built on hope

I'm also fond of the "Miniboss Squad" approach at higher XP levels. My own players are going to run smack into a delightful trio of Inquisitors soon, each one their match in some way.

Their last bout with an Inquisitor also occurred in a situation where he was an additional obstacle on top of their mission. The medic went to rescue hostages and the pilot to secure their getaway, leaving the party's resident saber-jockey to solo the Inquisitor. He also had a lot of mobility that the party didn't in that environment, since he had improved Force Leap. Were it not for the pilot showing back up with an absurdly large blaster, the saber-jockey would have been toast.

My PC (a 900 or so PC with 5 trees, atuari saber form with assassin) took on a force rating 6 inquisitor with the support of one other PC (a pilot that had his gun destroyed right at the start of the fight) and a squad of stormtroopers working for the hand (think Dragon slayers in wild space, these fellows also had a reason that they didn't want this tratior releasing dread magic.). What would have been a nearly impossible fight for myself alone was actually pretty easy when played out tactically, though the inquistor had strong mind control approaching him directly meant he couldn't employ it and with a mix of Hawkbat and moves my character was able to dart in and out, allowing the squad of stormtroopers and the other PC to engage him freely between exchanges. The tide turned when his lightsaber was slashed up with a double thumph and he never got the chance to show his full power; a barrage of blaster from the squad, got knocked on his back by a unskilled chadra Fan meant that that he just got cut down.

To give background though this man was a manipulator rather then a direct combatant; part of a cabal of 4 inquisitors by the time we confronted him at the destination (some unknown gate to a lost civilisation) two of his companions were dead and the fourth was mediating to open the gate. Just I never really felt i was in any danger of being defeated though which is weird, a singular nemesis can only do so much and he would have had to hit me twice (easy with a double, but he just never connected) so either prepare to have the PC get overwhelmed or observe as he beats the odds.

My Non-Force-Sensitive blew an inquisitor's arm off in the first round of combat soo... I can't give advice.

Disarming is the best advice you can give to fighting Inquisitors, especially funny with the Inquisitors come with their usual double lightsabers

Naturally having enough ranks of parry to reduce damage often to zero is a good way to prevent critical hits from the likes of disrupters.

Or just give them a TIE-Advanced Prototype v1, it is an easy way to overcome groups with strong ground combat abilities. And it allows for a badass entrance too. ;-)

well we were in a space station sooo... How?

My Non-Force-Sensitive blew an inquisitor's arm off in the first round of combat soo... I can't give advice.

Disarming is the best advice you can give to fighting Inquisitors, especially funny with the Inquisitors come with their usual double lightsabers

Naturally having enough ranks of parry to reduce damage often to zero is a good way to prevent critical hits from the likes of disrupters.

Or just give them a TIE-Advanced Prototype v1, it is an easy way to overcome groups with strong ground combat abilities. And it allows for a badass entrance too. ;-)

well we were in a space station sooo... How?

Shoot the space station until the PC either come into space or got blown up while being in the space station? Shoot your way IN the space station and watch people getting blown into involuntary eva. ;-)^

Or the station just has a big hangar and the PCs need to reach their ship because reasons while the inquisitor becomes super hatted all thanks to hitting one or two PCs before they reach the ship with two near dead bodies.

I'm not running a game that honors the cinematic meta-plot. As such, I have no problems with a major nemesis, including Vader, being killed by PCs. The key is that their death be appropriate, dramatic, and serve as the crowning achievement of the campaign, or propel the greater arc in satisfying directions. I don't agree Vader is a force of nature, or that he should be treated as one. He's impressive. He's dangerous. He should be scary. He should fight smart and press every advantage. But, if you are going to trot him out onto the field of honor he should not have plot armor. That would not be fair play and therefore, by definition, would be dishonorable. The game-master is morally bound to be honorable. You aren't writing a screenplay. You are playing a game. The players should be allowed, with luck and skill, a fair shot at winning.