Imagine for a moment that you are in charge of designing X-Wing 2.0*. You want Torpedoes and Missile in the game, but you know they need a comprehensive overhaul in order to be a fun system. How do you do it?

Some things to keep in mind:

The game is more fun when both players have a chance to interact with the offense and defense part of combat.

A 4 hit attack would obliterate a 3 HP TIE Fighter, but would not take the shields off a Ghost. Good luck balancing that!

The beauty of X-Wing is it's simplicity. Let's not add a bunch of math, and I'm not sure it would be fun with 5 different die types (though a 3rd die type, done well, isn't out of the question).

Another design goal is to meaningfully differentiate missiles from torpedoes, without rendering either of them useless under certain circumstances.

So. Have at it! Let's spend a few days shooting the breeze over what we might do differently, given the benefit of hindsight.

*How X-Wing 2.0 is created is not the point of or part of this conversation. You can also imagine you've got a time machine and are going back to the creation of X-Wing, if you would like.

Torpedoes: most useful against large or immobile targets. So maybe give them a bunch if dice (6+), but double the amount of defence dice the target rolls. Wrecks large bases or low-agility, but can't even hit a small ship.

Missiles: maybe keep them like they are today.

Different types of dice for Accuracy and Damage.

Homing missles have high accuracy, and lower damage. Good for anti-aces.

Slower torpedoes have low accuracy and high damage. Aces can dodge, but they really punish slower VT-49's and VCX-100's.

Tweak different types as needed.

Boom, done, what's my prize?

Different types of dice for Accuracy and Damage.

Homing missles have high accuracy, and lower damage. Good for anti-aces.

Slower torpedoes have low accuracy and high damage. Aces can dodge, but they really punish slower VT-49's and VCX-100's.

Tweak different types as needed.

Boom, done, what's my prize?

Heck, you could even work this in the existing system. The initial attack roll is only to measure whether the shot hits the target. If it does, make a second roll for damage, or have that ordnance deal a fixed amount. So a Proton Torpedo could only be a 2-3 dice attack, but stays with 4 red dice and the auto-crit mod when you roll for damage. Concussion Missile could remain a 4-dice attack with the blank conversion, but only rolls 3 damage dice.

im still waiting for an anti-large base ordnance thats only 2 dice, but any unevaded damage is tripled. Odds are this wont hit a 3agi ship and any ship with an evade token can negate half of its damage, but if you have low agi and/or no evade action its gonna hurt.

Even if you have an evade action, being forced to do it over a focus in fear of this attack is still a win.

Homing Cluster Missiles

Shadow Bombs

Diamond Boron Missiles

Experimental Bomblet Generator

Mag Pulse Missiles

Different types of dice for Accuracy and Damage.

Homing missles have high accuracy, and lower damage. Good for anti-aces.

Slower torpedoes have low accuracy and high damage. Aces can dodge, but they really punish slower VT-49's and VCX-100's.

Tweak different types as needed.

Boom, done, what's my prize?

This all over.

Torp dice (and TLT dice, things designed to kill big slow ships but bad at killing small fast ones) get 'does double damage if not evades but only costs one evade to evade' symbols.

Missile dice (and high accuracy low damage things like... I don't know, ion cannons and tractor beams maybe) get 'takes 2 evades to cancel, does single damage' symbols.

Remote Warheads. Attaching to target on successful hit.

Exploding with huge effect only when you trigger.

I think one of the core things that needs to happen in X-Wing 2.0 is decoupling firepower (how much damage an attack does) and accuracy (how easy it is to land the attack in the first place). The current dice mechanic links these two ideas, which has led to a meta where only high firepower, high accuracy attacks are viable, so only ships at the extremes are viable. I think X-Wing 2.0 needs to change the dice themselves to something more like Imperial Assault. Imperial Assault has 3 separate 'families' of symbols on its dice: accuracy, damage and surges. X-Wing doesn't need to be this complicated, but it does need two families of symbols: one set governing whether the attack hits, one set governing how much damage the attack deals (provided it hits). Like Imperial Assault, there would need to be different kinds of attack and defense dice with different distributions of symbols on them. The end result would be a more flexible system where it would be possible to have attacks that struggle to hit highly maneuverable ships but deal huge amounts of damage to whatever they hit (i.e. Torpedoes) while also having more accurate but less powerful attacks (i.e. Missiles). Currently there aren't really weapons that work like Torpedoes should - a Torpedo used against a low agility ship should be a sure thing - a pretty much guaranteed hit that does solid damage. Against a high agility ace, it should be a high risk, high reward shot - it's probably going to miss but if it connects it should deal devastating damage to such a fragile ship. Currently, even something as basic as a TIE Fighter is likely to survive a full on torpedo hit.

All of the above, + once you purchase munition, you have them for the rest of the game.

The dice will have to be balanced around it of course.

No more keeping track, or seeing a bloated Tie Punisher run out of ammo (lets be real, it dies before that, but y'know).

Also, guided bombs/torps - the torps in the TIE FIghter games were really slow. I like the idea of a torp token that you fire then steer around the board and when it hits something, you make the attack.

1. Divorce the attack dice rolled from the damage suffered, the same way that Ion cannons and TLTs work. Tweak and flavor as necessary for individual ordnance types.

2. Lose the requirement for target locks in most cases.

Some briefly considered examples:

Proton torpedoes:

Attack (2 dice, range 2-3): Attack one ship. If this attack hits, cancel all dice, and the defender suffers two damage and is dealt one face-up damage card. Then discard this card.

Cost: 3

Concussion Missiles:

Attack (3 dice, range 1-3): Attack one ship. While performing this attack, you may change one of your blank results to a hit result. If this attack hits, the defender suffers three damage. Then discard this card.

Cost: 3

I mean, probably the simplest solution would be something like making it so you can use the token the attack requires you have when you use the ordnance- so for example, when you attack with a proton torpedo, you can still reroll any or all of your dice, as if you had a target lock, or when you use Blaster Turret you can turn all the eyeballs into hits- that would make them substantially more accurate (although Guidance Chips certainly makes this change less substantial than it would have been,)

For torpedoes, if it hits, add 1 boom result. For missiles, cancel one evade result. That way torpedoes can deal more damage, while missiles are more accurate.

Other changes would be something like, you have to acquire target locks in arc, but once you have a ship locked, you can shoot them out of arc, which is more in line with the actual effects of ordnance. Or having there be an action to reload ordnance, so that you can get multiple shots out of it.

I mean, probably the simplest solution would be something like making it so you can use the token the attack requires you have when you use the ordnance- so for example, when you attack with a proton torpedo, you can still reroll any or all of your dice, as if you had a target lock, or when you use Blaster Turret you can turn all the eyeballs into hits- that would make them substantially more accurate (although Guidance Chips certainly makes this change less substantial than it would have been,)

For torpedoes, if it hits, add 1 boom result. For missiles, cancel one evade result. That way torpedoes can deal more damage, while missiles are more accurate.

Other changes would be something like, you have to acquire target locks in arc, but once you have a ship locked, you can shoot them out of arc, which is more in line with the actual effects of ordnance. Or having there be an action to reload ordnance, so that you can get multiple shots out of it.

Ordnance (pre-fix and to a certain extent ongoing) has a few principal problems:

1: TL requirements make ordnance prohibitively difficult to use on low-PS carriers (low PS carriers cannot guarantee R3 for a 1st round-of-engagement target lock)

2: The requirement to spend tokens without modifying results reduces damage output

3: Single use nature of ordnance weapons reduces overall cost effectiveness

Each of these problems has a fix, but they are often unavailable (need a torp slot or free mod slot) or mutually exclusive with each other (LRS and GC).

A from-scratch ordnance design should address all three problems.

Well said! I'd love to see a heavy laser cannon be terrifying if it hits you - but very inaccurate, while an A-wing's blasters do very little damage, but be very likely to hit

Remote Warheads. Attaching to target on successful hit.

Exploding with huge effect only when you trigger.

What a novel idea! Love it! You get a medal Sir!

Alright, this post may go through a few edits, but hopefully this will come across right.

So, when confronted with this challenge, I first thought of how to define and differ Missiles and Torpedoes. What really stuck with me was that all I've seen from Star Wars is that Missiles chase defenders & are hard to shake off either detonating only when hitting their target or when the defender performs some great maneuvers. While torpedoes offer devastating hits with adverse effects on the ships. After that, trying to keep it simple without add a whole bunch more to the game was the second hurdle, which hopefully I have attained. Although I did want to introduce a new mechanic for it to be fun and thematic for the players. Based off that, I give you my X-Wing 2.0 Munitions.

The mechanic of needing a target lock with 90% of the Missiles and Torpedoes (sometimes focus token instead) will stay the same, but none of the Missiles will require you to spend the target lock once used whereas some Torpedoes will still require spending a target lock to be used based on how powerful they are. Range restrictions will still be part of this version.

Missiles: Average Attack Dice is 3. New Mechanic of "Missile Chase"

-As per current X-Wing, the attacker will need a Target Lock to shoot at the defender with a Missile. Once the missile is launched that combat is resolved and if the target lock was not spent to reroll the attack dice and the missile did not hit, the "Missile Chase" mechanic takes into effect.

-In the next combat round, if the attacker still has it's target lock on the same defender from the previous round, during it's combat phase, it can perform the missile attack with no modifications (unless specific upgrade cards say otherwise) again AND THEN it can also perform it's normal primary attack.

-If the attacker loses it's target lock whether by spending it or other card affects that remove the lock OR if the attacker chooses to fire with another secondary weapon, the missile cannot chase any further whether it has hit the defender or not.

-The defender may perform maneuvers to try and lose the missile. When the defender performs any hard turn, K turns, sloops, talon rolls, barrel rolls and/or boosts, decrease the attack value of the chasing missile by 1 for each of those maneuvers. Once the value reaches 0, the defender has successfully evaded the missile and is lost in space.

-Missile types and upgrade cards can be reworked to support this "Missile Chase" mechanic both for the attacker and defender. Things that may cause the defender to stress out while trying to evade it or the defender could have special abilities that help evade Missiles (Black One title already). Flares or Point Defense Lasers (Large ship only) could become a thing, which I know some people have thought about. The bread and butter of Missiles will be doing what it can to hit as much as possible without many additional effects (Ion, tractor, etc.) applied to the defending ship other than maybe Stress. Forcing certain maneuvers to be used can be another advantage for the attacker along with a more likely chance to hit which can add more depth to the game.

Torpedoes: Average Attack Dice is 4.

-Torpedoes predominately stay the same in terms of how they attack now. They don't have the "Missile Chase" mechanic.

-All Crits suffered by Torpedoes will force a face-up draw from the damage deck BUT if the defender still has shields, they will only remove that shield token and that crit card WILL NOT count against it's hull value.

-They do offer more additional affects to the defender once damage has been done though such as Ion, Stress, and tractor tokens along with other new card effects.

-Splash damage will also be more predominate with Torpedoes than Missiles, even with Plasma Torpedoes that could splash extra shield damage to ships at Range 1.

-Again, card design with these are more adverse effects whether it's crits hurting the defender more, applying tokens to defenders, or splash damage will be the bread and butter of Torpedoes.

IN RESPONSE TO CURRENT THOUGHTS: A lot of people have suggested having static damage separate of the attack value of the munitions. While that is an easy "fix" I find it boring and we just lump it in with TLTs, which I don't want munitions to just add to the TLT spam of "guaranteed" damage. This game is supposed to be fun, and I think my mechanics will add to that. The OP thought was to involve the attacker and the defender in the fight and I don't think guaranteed static damage will be as satisfying.

Make ordnance standard on the ships that have them, instead of a thing you pay points for. X-wings have two proton torpedo launchers, each having 3 torpedoes. Let them just be built in and don't have them consume target locks (as you know, guided torpedoes should probably be more accurate than laser cannon fire.) I highly doubt the Rebel Alliance was fielding empty ordnance tubes, but you'd think that would be the norm if you based it on the miniature game. That said, torpedoes have more travel time, so should be easier to avoid. I'd like for there to be a turn delay before the damage actually drops, where the enemy can juke the torpedo using maneuvers, but I can't come up with any game mechanic that would make that flow well. The alternative would be to just make them all like Advanced Homing Missiles, where they deal a static amount of damage, so the attack dice are solely a function of accuracy, instead of both accuracy and power. After all, you can't "mostly" evade a missile. It either hits you or it doesn't.

Granted, I feel this because I'm currently reading the X-wing series, where proton torpedoes are the main method of taking out enemy fighters.

Different types of dice for Accuracy and Damage.

Homing missles have high accuracy, and lower damage. Good for anti-aces.

Slower torpedoes have low accuracy and high damage. Aces can dodge, but they really punish slower VT-49's and VCX-100's.

Tweak different types as needed.

Boom, done, what's my prize?

Heck, you could even work this in the existing system. The initial attack roll is only to measure whether the shot hits the target. If it does, make a second roll for damage, or have that ordnance deal a fixed amount. So a Proton Torpedo could only be a 2-3 dice attack, but stays with 4 red dice and the auto-crit mod when you roll for damage. Concussion Missile could remain a 4-dice attack with the blank conversion, but only rolls 3 damage dice.

Yea, would be awesome if they'd introduce more munitions with at damage or effects and dice were rolled simply for hit/miss. Would allow for high accuracy/low damage and vice versa. Would make munitions a lot more interesting. Also wouldn't hate seeing some ordnance that can hit beyond range 3; I know logistically it might be a pain due to not everybody having epic range rulers.

Seeing as my idea fro way back when (Ammo Tokens) has made it into the game ... as well as another player's idea of high accuracy/low damage (TLT effect), I'm gonna have X-wing 2.0's ordnance start with these two.

The "TLT effect" idea has a lot of potential for other variants, especially when combined with debuff effects like Ion & Stress. I'd like to add a few more of these. Which pair well with the next idea: new dice.

I would added a third die (e.g Yellow), that introduced 2 new symbols (e.g X and O), similar to the Force Die in ffg's rpg, or Decent/Imperial Assault's Surge icon. The effect of those symbols could be built into the ordnance's upgrade card. Different weapons would use different groups of Red & Yellow dice, and the value of 2 symbols would vary by card. So on one missile the X gives you Crits and the O causes Splash damage. On another weapon the X reduces the defender's agility by 1, and the O makes the defender reroll 1 die.

Also, I don't think I'd combine the Attack (Target Lock) and Discard this Card effect as often. I'd probably use dual cards or some other way to make it so you could only fire a high power Torp/Missile once every other round.

And Push the Limit would be built into the the game, not an upgrade. This isn't so much about Ordnance as it is about v2.0's overall game design.

Also, guided bombs/torps - the torps in the TIE FIghter games were really slow. I like the idea of a torp token that you fire then steer around the board and when it hits something, you make the attack.

In broad terms, make Torpedoes more like bombs. When you fire them you get a set number of templates you can use to steer a torpedo token. You hit, big badda boom.

Vague examples:

- Proton torpedo gets 1 x 1 bank and a 5 straight. Only hits if token/manoeuvre template crosses a base.

- Ion torpedo 4 straight only. Detonation hits everything in Range 1

- Advanced Proton Torpedo 2x2 bank plus 2 straight.

Makes Torpedoes better against big bases. Makes it a completely different mechanic vs missiles.

I think it needs more work to give smaller ships more chance to dodge. Perhaps guaranteed damage (like 5 or 6) but you must equal the defenders agility on X number of dice (hits rolled, crits count as 2).

Maybe get a special torpedo that would detonate after 2 turns, but is tricky to steer.

Edit: Problem of this being possible to hit close targets. Solution: Token must be placed 2 Straight in front of you without overlapping before manoeuvre of the token starts.

To me, the range restriction on the target lock action doesn't make much sense. Surely ships could lock on from ranges beyond the effective range of fire? I'm not really sure what the range restriction adds to game either. That said, the Target lock requirement to fire ordance does make sense and adds another level to the game.

I would like ships in x-wing 2.0 to be able to target lock at any distance. Sure, they all enter combat with locks.. That actually sounds reasonable to me. Now higher PS aces will need to be wary of these locks and try to counter with manouvres. Anti TL-tech, like expert handling and t-70 title also becomes more valuable. I think this would be interesting and balance the aces vs the low PS ordnance carriers.

And Push the Limit would be built into the the game, not an upgrade. This isn't so much about Ordnance as it is about v2.0's overall game design.

My X-Wing 2.0 ideas always start with this very thought.

I like the idea of Torpedoes having a hard time vs high agility ships, but doing massive damage to low agility ships, and Missiles being the opposite. However!

If I bring a few Y-Wings and X-Wings to a fight against a TIE swarm, I'm going to feel a bit cheated that I spent a bunch of points on Torpedoes that won't be very useful.

And vice versa if it's A-Wings vs Party Busses.

There is nothing wrong with ordnance, as is. Miranda Doni, A-wings and the like give suitable platforms for missiles - especially homing missiles. As for torpedoes, all they need is a dedicated carrier with either a title giving them costly, but unlimited ammunition, or numerous facilitated upgrades, like an astromech, systems and two torpedo slots.

As for the first, the X-wing was known for its ability to cripple capital ships with its 6 proton torpedoes (see the X-wing books for more). As to why they were only given one torpedo slot is beyond me:

Extended Magazine: (T-65 x-wing only, title) (0)

Place 2 extra munitions tokens on each [torpedo] card equipped.

This opens up a whole lot of X-wing builds, and brings the T-65 back into the game:

Wedge Antilles (38) - So, PS 9 , agility reducing Wedge is back. This time with consistent fire averaging something like 3.75 hits per shot. Good luck, Soontir

Proton Torpedoes

Predator

Targeting Astromech

Guidance Chips

Extended Magazine

Or on the cheap:

Rookie Pilot (25)

Proton Torpedoes

Guidance Chips

Extended Magazine

Spam 4 in a list, or 3 and Biggs, and you've got a fantastic joust.

Thematically, this make sense, as the two things that put the T-65 above its TIE fighter opposition were its shields and its long-range strike capabilities with proton torpedoes.