Warning, wall of text! Just read the part about the T-65 x wing if you want the light version.


First off, in my opinion, a ship doesn't need to win a tournament to be competitive. If it wins a lot of games at tournaments, but doesn't make the cut then that is fine by me. You dont have to be a winner to be good and all that. Okay I will break it down.

This forum has seen too many fixes threads were people complain about 'the ship is not competitive' or the ship needs a fix. I will go through the prejudice and show you how very wrong it is.
The first question we need to answer is, what makes a ship competitive? The placements it has been involved in, the amount of lists in has been in, the range of pilots that the ship has that has been used in competitive lists?

Let's take the stereotype: The T-65 X-wing.
Normally people say it is underpowered, and that the only reason you see it at all is because of biggs.
That is partly true, but I would make a case for both Wes as a competitive pilot, and even the generic rookie, since it made 4-2 in a list at worlds (its pretty good!), and even without all of these, most ships do NOT have more than 1 viable pilot available in competitive.

Okay, so the X-wing 'only' has 2(3)ships available to it on the competitive level.

Let's take the classic competitive ship: The TIE-Interceptor.

It has two pilots that see play often (though not even a lot anymore!):
Soontir Fel and Carnor Jax.
That's the same as the x-wing, but nobody wants to fix the interceptor. It only has 2 ships viable on the competitive level!!!!

I can continue on. The TIE-advanced (even the prototype) only has Vader/inquisitor as viable pilots, but nobody yells for them to be fixed.
(Okay maybe someone does, but hey who takes him serious?)

Thoughts about 'competitiveness' and the mechanic of different pilots.
So what is it we want with all these fixes?
I think what people want is to have a wider range of pilots available to the in competitive play, not to have the ship itself place high in competitive tournaments. I mean, if Biggs was at every finals in competitive play, people wouldn't call for a nerf, would they? That would just ruin the rest of the x-wings completely. I myself would love to see more spread in the pilots available, but I think it is very very very hard to make say both the generic, the good generic, the mid PS ace and the high PS ace that comes in every pack equally attractive. FFG obviously tries, misses a lot, but on the other hand it is better than them just giving us 1 PS2 generic and 1 PS7-8-9 ace and just let us pick between generics and elites.

I think we have to face that FFG can't balance everything out in the game completely, and that 50 % of pickrate in pilots is the maximum we should strive for. I think the new wave has shown promise in FFG's distribution of power between pilots I see the ARC as having 4 really good pilots that work in really different lists as a good example, as well as the fang fighter having interesting pilots across the board, while the shadow caster have at least 2, maybe 3 pilots that get used a lot. The only sore thumb might be the TIE-SF that might 'only' have quickdraw as a good competitive choice (come at me haters!).

To be perfectly honest I do not think any ship is useless competitively in the game, maybe the imperial firespray, but I have seen every other ship do well at tournaments (either in person or reported here or otherwise).
The rest is up to the day (what kind of lists you face), and your own skill (what you can do with the ship) and of course your opponents skill.


Sorry for the long rant, have a good day and feel free to comment, critizise and what-not.
Cheers!

Some pilots will always crystallize out to be the best in a given ship. And these will see most play.

Neverthless it is a shame that FFG sometimes designs so awfull ships like Fel´s Wrath or Horton (who has no elite slot)

Well, i'm not going to go blow smoke up everyone's ass about how good every ship in the game is just to placate your topical preferences.

Your point about the T-65 is actually correct, though. I don't think Wes is very good, but Biggs is, and one viable pilot is more than one can say for the starviper or the k-fighter.

If you don't like them, stop reading them. You can't control other people, only yourself.

******* hell

'the rookie is good because it was in a list that went 4-2 at worlds' really is not a thrilling endorsement of the T-65's capabilities.

Nor is your personal opinion that Wes is good.

So shut up

Difference between the T-65 and the TIE Interceptor:

Biggs being good has nothing to do with the frame on which he flies, Soontir is only as good as he is because of the frame on which he flies.

Biggs exists solely because some Rebel ships are just straight up incapable of protecting themselves. Biggs exists because solely because some Rebel ships are bad, not because Biggs is good.

Soontir exists because Soontir is good.

If overnight, you made ships like ARC-170s and all other ships that need Biggs capable of protecting themselves defensively, then Biggs would disappear. Soontir is only going to disappear if something that is such a huge counter to his very existence becomes so prominent that he isn't good anymore comes into play. Soontir needs to be nerfed either directly or through gameplay effects to disappear, Rebel ships need to be buffed for Biggs to disappear.

Wes is used despite his ship, not because of it. Which is why he sees some but not a lot of play.

Soontir is used because his ability AND his ship is good. Which is why he's f***ing everywhere.

So my personal belief is that you really can make T-65s better without worrying about Biggs but you need to fix all the **** that requires Biggs first.

******* hell

'the rookie is good because it was in a list that went 4-2 at worlds' really is not a thrilling endorsement of the T-65's capabilities.

Nor is your personal opinion that Wes is good.

So shut up

And yes, Wes has potential, if built and flown right. I back this up from seeing it flown well with the Stressbot onboard.

ACE-WING... MEH!

Biggs is now part of the Rebel identity. Instead of coming up with ways around biggs, FFG is giving rebels more, less powerful but broader "biggs effects."

Biggs

Thane

Rex

Kanan

Newbacca

By making "biggs effects" a staple, biggs himself drops back to being the "T65 biggs", meaning that a T65 buff becomes reasonable again.

Okay, I too will break it down. This thread is broken. The power creep of other threads have made this thread obsolete. FFG better release a "Better Words" expansion pack for this forum soon. SKU58???

A major reason for the underperformance of this thread is that it has too many words. The other threads with less words maneuver around it easily. Why doesn't FFG see this and nerf the other threads that are too powerful?

The thread meta has progress to a wave10 meta. This thread is clearly from the wave3 thread meta and is noncompetitive.

******* hell

'the rookie is good because it was in a list that went 4-2 at worlds' really is not a thrilling endorsement of the T-65's capabilities.

Nor is your personal opinion that Wes is good.

So shut up

Your expression of personal opinion was even less thrilling. The OP had facts and constructed an arguement around it. Agree with it or not, he put thought into it. You contributed nothing.

And yes, Wes has potential, if built and flown right. I back this up from seeing it flown well with the Stressbot onboard.

Yeah point me to these 'facts' then mate. OP had a nice round 0 facts in his post, and going 'no but he had facts' isn't an argument, and is barely worth me pointing out, as anyone with a few spare brain cells might be able to notice.

******* hell

'the rookie is good because it was in a list that went 4-2 at worlds' really is not a thrilling endorsement of the T-65's capabilities.

Nor is your personal opinion that Wes is good.

So shut up

Your expression of personal opinion was even less thrilling. The OP had facts and constructed an arguement around it. Agree with it or not, he put thought into it. You contributed nothing.

And yes, Wes has potential, if built and flown right. I back this up from seeing it flown well with the Stressbot onboard.

Yeah point me to these 'facts' then mate. OP had a nice round 0 facts in his post, and going 'no but he had facts' isn't an argument, and is barely worth me pointing out, as anyone with a few spare brain cells might be able to notice.

His argument was based on the performance of a build containing generic T-65s in Worlds. Considering the competitive nature of Worlds, having a positive win loss ratio while using a ship considered in need of a fix is impressive. That was the first fact he used. You could have claimed that it was false or that you felt it wasn't enough evidence to support his thesis. But you didn't. You discarded it out of hand, weakening your position.

The OP also talked about how other ships like the Interceptor, the Tie Advanced, and the TAP only have one regularly used pilot at higher level games, but aren't being called on to have a fix. You didn't touch on this in your original post, but it does counter your claim that there were no facts in the OP.

There are the facts you asked for. You can disagree with them, that is completely up to you. But simply dismissing another person's arguement by telling them to "shut up" is childish and completely unmotivating.

Want to prove you have spare brain cells? Actually form an intelligent counter to the OP's thesis. Otherwise, you aren't worth the time.

Talking about generics, is there a single person here who d rather fly generic interceptor instead of generic t65?

Come on, interceptors are all about soontir, and its his ability, not the ship by itself, just like biggs.

I am not saying that the interceptor is a bad ship obviously, just that it shines under specific conditions.

******* hell

'the rookie is good because it was in a list that went 4-2 at worlds' really is not a thrilling endorsement of the T-65's capabilities.

Nor is your personal opinion that Wes is good.

So shut up

Your expression of personal opinion was even less thrilling. The OP had facts and constructed an arguement around it. Agree with it or not, he put thought into it. You contributed nothing.

And yes, Wes has potential, if built and flown right. I back this up from seeing it flown well with the Stressbot onboard.

Yeah point me to these 'facts' then mate. OP had a nice round 0 facts in his post, and going 'no but he had facts' isn't an argument, and is barely worth me pointing out, as anyone with a few spare brain cells might be able to notice.

Aaaaand yet you did.

His argument was based on the performance of a build containing generic T-65s in Worlds. Considering the competitive nature of Worlds, having a positive win loss ratio while using a ship considered in need of a fix is impressive. That was the first fact he used. You could have claimed that it was false or that you felt it wasn't enough evidence to support his thesis. But you didn't. You discarded it out of hand, weakening your position.

The OP also talked about how other ships like the Interceptor, the Tie Advanced, and the TAP only have one regularly used pilot at higher level games, but aren't being called on to have a fix. You didn't touch on this in your original post, but it does counter your claim that there were no facts in the OP.

There are the facts you asked for. You can disagree with them, that is completely up to you. But simply dismissing another person's arguement by telling them to "shut up" is childish and completely unmotivating.

Want to prove you have spare brain cells? Actually form an intelligent counter to the OP's thesis. Otherwise, you aren't worth the time.

haha wow, TIL that 'fact' can mean anything on the internet so long as you present whatever bilge you spew with a pretentious air of faux-neutrality.

******* hell

'the rookie is good because it was in a list that went 4-2 at worlds' really is not a thrilling endorsement of the T-65's capabilities.

Nor is your personal opinion that Wes is good.

So shut up

Your expression of personal opinion was even less thrilling. The OP had facts and constructed an arguement around it. Agree with it or not, he put thought into it. You contributed nothing.

And yes, Wes has potential, if built and flown right. I back this up from seeing it flown well with the Stressbot onboard.

Yeah point me to these 'facts' then mate. OP had a nice round 0 facts in his post, and going 'no but he had facts' isn't an argument, and is barely worth me pointing out, as anyone with a few spare brain cells might be able to notice.

Aaaaand yet you did.

His argument was based on the performance of a build containing generic T-65s in Worlds. Considering the competitive nature of Worlds, having a positive win loss ratio while using a ship considered in need of a fix is impressive. That was the first fact he used. You could have claimed that it was false or that you felt it wasn't enough evidence to support his thesis. But you didn't. You discarded it out of hand, weakening your position.

The OP also talked about how other ships like the Interceptor, the Tie Advanced, and the TAP only have one regularly used pilot at higher level games, but aren't being called on to have a fix. You didn't touch on this in your original post, but it does counter your claim that there were no facts in the OP.

There are the facts you asked for. You can disagree with them, that is completely up to you. But simply dismissing another person's arguement by telling them to "shut up" is childish and completely unmotivating.

Want to prove you have spare brain cells? Actually form an intelligent counter to the OP's thesis. Otherwise, you aren't worth the time.

haha wow, TIL that 'fact' can mean anything on the internet so long as you present whatever bilge you spew with a pretentious air of faux-neutrality.

But then we'll have nothing to talk about...for months at a time.

But then we'll have nothing to talk about...for months at a time.

Talking about generics, is there a single person here who d rather fly generic interceptor instead of generic t65?

Come on, interceptors are all about soontir, and its his ability, not the ship by itself, just like biggs.

I am not saying that the interceptor is a bad ship obviously, just that it shines under specific conditions.

I mean, I'd use a generic interceptor at PS8 or 9. The reason people don't use generic interceptors is because you can't arc dodge at low PS.

But then we'll have nothing to talk about...for months at a time.

There's still the Assault Gunboat to talk about.

I thought the same exact thing; Gunboat needs to be inserted to deter this thread degrading further. I'll go out on a limb here and say the OP made good points, debatable sure, but sound. Also, jimmius really needs a pint in my opinion, he's obviously had a tough day (we've all been there) that's led him to be just too salty to communicate joyfully without some liquid intervention (just a friendly idea....I'll have one too). Oh, and:

Hell no. Always fix the underused.

Its more of a problem of PS bonded to pilot abilities that make only a few pilots useful. Actually, ONLY Soontir really is T1, and Carnor is deep T2. So, the Tie Int is also a classic example of how poorly some pilots do.

See the buff calls for Fel's Wrath.

Buff Fel's Wrath 2016.

What's this Rookie T-65 list? Sounds like my style and I'm looking for a new non-Biggs Xwing list.

Biggs is now part of the Rebel identity. Instead of coming up with ways around biggs, FFG is giving rebels more, less powerful but broader "biggs effects."

Biggs

Thane

Rex

Kanan

Newbacca

By making "biggs effects" a staple, biggs himself drops back to being the "T65 biggs", meaning that a T65 buff becomes reasonable again.

I just like making possibilities, tweeking things, and theorizing "what I would do" ... So ... Even if everything was perfectly balanced, I would still theorize new cards/pilot abilities/upgrades.

As they say, the few T-65 X-Wing pilots that see play are used for their pilot abilities, not for their ship. In fact, they are used in spite of their ship.

Wes and Biggs were used to particularly counter a part of the meta that devastated Rebel ships. Biggs as a sinkhole of torpedoes, Wes as an disruptive element to firing said torpedoes.

Had Biggs and Wes come in any other cheaper ship, like an Y-Wing or an A-Wing, nobody would have picked their X-Wing version ever.

The X-wing needs an update more than a fix.

If the X-wing is a jouster, it cannot be that the B-wing does everything that the X-wind does, but better, for one more point. The only thing the X-wing has over the B-wing is its pilot abilities and some utility in the astromech, all at the cost of spending more points. Again, that doesn't save the ship itself. Not even the B-wing is seen so much anymore for their role.

It's an outdated ship, little else than a glorified Z-95. From a time when the game was about maneuvering and performing one focus or target lock action.

For the same cost, a PS 1 TIE/x7 Defender Delta flies in circles around a more expensive PS 9 Wedge. Add stuff to Wedge and his efficiency becomes worse and worse.

Vectored thrusters and engine upgrade add more actions to the ship's bar, but by significantly increasing its cost to the point that it no longer makes sense to go with a premium T-65 X-wing, while you could instead pick an ARC-170 or a T-70 X-Wing for better use of your points.

Integrated astromech removes the modification slot to give you 1 extra hitpoint. It makes your renounce to modifications that increase your ability to get out of arc, or get someone in arc, in exchange for a single hitpoint.

That upgrade did nothing for updating the ship. It just made it last a little bit longer while still suffering from its outdated design. That only worked for a pilot whose main reason wasn't to actually do anything meaningful other than serve as human shield.

OP here! Okay this thread got more heat than I expected!

Just to bear in mind, I do not mind counter-arguments. I invite them! This is a discussion, not a monologue!

So what I gather up to now is this: The ability is more important than the ship (or vice versa, take your pick!) and I'm an idiot with my 'facts'.


So first off. Let's not call them facts, but evidence to prove my thesis (if we have to go all science-like on this).

The BBBXZ list placed 2nd at a regionals in maryland yesterday, beating a dengaroo list, and losing to the champion in a cool palp-aces build (duncan howard I think it was)
Apparently the X-wing is there to Kturn behind big ships that are becoming more and more popular.

Apart from my earlier statement from worlds, I think this points to the generic rookie as being decently competitive when played by a good player with a lot of experience.

I realise the Wes statement is up for heavy discussion, with him being exceptionally good in the Uboat meta, but even in the defender meta, I argue he is good. Stripping 1-2 (if he rolls enough to force a spend) tokens, stressing the defender so it can't get more than evade if it decides to Kturn, followed up by Corran and Biggs shooting is pretty good.

Is he only enabled by Biggs? Maybe. But what if I put another must-die target next to him, say a Y-wing with proton torpedos, EM, long range scanners and an autoblasterturret for the same price? Okay before you flip tables, imagine if you actually faced a list that envolved an Y.wing like that. Would you seriously just let it rampage with torpedos and autoblaster turrets while you try shooting down wes or corran, or would you try to shoot it up before all those delicious torpedos end in your hull?

For squishy rebel ships, It is all about threat generation, the point about Biggs is that he simply does it automatically, instead of requiring any kind of thought from your opponent.
On a side note it is the same point that enables Quickdraw to be doable; He needs to have other threats around him to punish the opponent focusing him.

On this point, these 'mini biggs' that are mentioned, are indeed going to shift the meta, but in another way: They generate threat, a threat that needs to be dealt with, which makes them an obvious target. That idea is the same I have mentioned above, and has been an integral part to list building.

I disagree that Biggs is only good because of his ability.
Let's say he was in a Z-95. Still good?
In a Y-wing? Still good? Of course not. You would just pick a stress hog up for the same result.

I am not disputing that his ability is not good, but rather that it works

He still needs to be in a frame that can take some hits, dodge SOME hits, and deal a bit of occational pain back. I've had games with him where the opponent tried to avoid biggs with clever fire-arc play, but in that case you REALLY like the fact that the x-wing has a 3 valued primary weapon, instead of say 2, and decent moveability. He needs teeth to be WORTH his ability in my opinion.

To the interceptor as a frame in it self is good, I am not quite sure. Soontir's ability is so valuable since it always gives him a focus for defense, no matter what he does.
I have faced royal guards with PTL, and when they use all actions on maneuvering, they really lose a lot of value (I was playing with lower PS, so the arc dodging was the same).

Hmm not sure if I adressed everything, poke at me if you think I missed something

Have a good day, and thanks for answering, special thanks to SabienKey for trying to keep a neutral discussion going