Talonbane Cobra, specifically, isn't at all bad - the main reason I'd consider taking a Khiraxz is that I wanted another PS9 bruiser and I'd already included Fenn Rau.

Very true. Talonbane is amazing.

That's the point. They aren't equal pilot skill - one of the things you're buying by taking Marauders instead of Recruits is to shoot first - meaning that whilst they both do 2.25 damage each on the first barrage, the Recruits are down a ship. Which means they do less damage in their return fire. Yes, the Recruits will win an equal-pilot-skill joust but they ain't got one.

I hadn't actually noticed that, but let's include it anyway:

First turn: The Recruits execute 3 straights, keeping them out of combat range.

Second Turn: The recruits slam a 5 forward, one boosts for the block and the others focus. You can either take the block and be action less, or anticipate the block and have your ships pointing in very wrong directions, but with tokens. Either way, the disadvantage of lower pilot skill has been neutralised on the first turn. After that its a matter of blocking with 1 recruit, and lining up shots with the others, which you really can't avoid.

All other PS1 blockers lack the 5-straight, boost and barrel roll combo that makes the Recruit a supremely capable blocker. You might shoot before me, but action-less, you'll do a maximum of 2.5 or so damage a turn, and I will kill a ship a turn.

Because whilst the whole squad will generally be stressed, you will not have too much of a problem getting an action

This is true, but I haven't brought out the hard counters yet:

3. Flechette Torpedoes - long range, guarantee stress, and damage to boot. COmbine with guidance chips on a y-wing for some okay counters, but not great.

2. Mara Jade - on a phantom, decimator or TIE Shuttle. Guaranteed stress after the first round, in mostly inexpensive or invulnerable packages. By cutting off all your red maneuvers, even the likes of Tomax Bren can stay outside your arc and plink away.

1. Thermal Detonators - you fly a swarm semi-dependent on formation flying and a stress-free environment. I drop a bombs a turn, stressing and damaging your ships action-free. Two of these on a y-wing with genius could break the list quite handily.

Thermal detonators don't worry my mind link lists, if you run them in formation you are doing it wrong, you need to run them out of formation to come at the opponent on different angles, this allows you to keep more shots on target later on in the game, and should only need to k turn one ship at a time

5 Cartel Marauders took me to the top 40 at Yavin and won me a store tournament this year. Black Sun Aces are one of the "Mindlink Six" as well.

I appreciate not everyone's willing to put the time in, but they can still get good results.

I'd still MUCH rather take a naked, generic Kihraxz over a naked, generic Protectorate as well (as I'm sure fickle will agree one extra shield is worth more than one extra inverted commas worthless inverted commas green dice)

What are these Mindlink Six?

Graz would have been solid with an EPT.

Not manoeuvreable or subtle, but solid.

I don't believe that this is a fair comparison.

You really are comparing apples to oranges. Would you compare an A-wing to an X-wing or a TIE Interceptor to a TIE Advanced? If the answer is no, then the same could be said about comparing the Kihraxz to the Protectorate Starfighter.

Let me explain. The A-wing, TIE Interceptor, StarViper & Protectorate Starfighter are all classified as Space Superiority Fighters, one notch above Frontline/Standard Fighters (e.g. Headhunter [Rebel Version], TIE Fighter & M3-A Interceptor) whose very mission/job role if you will, is to control the skies/space lanes being the absolute King's of Dogfighting. The Kihraxz is not a Space Superiority Fighter at all, it is a Multi-Role Fighter (e.g. X-wing, T-70 X-wing, E-wing, TIE Advanced Prototype, TIE Advanced, TIE/sf Fighter, Headhunter [scum & Villainy Version] & Virago) whose mission/job role is to tackle a wide variety of mission roles (Frontline Fighter, Light Bomber) hence why the X-wing is so popular with the Rebel Alliance (as they don't have the sheer numbers that the Empire has to field). Therefore, you are comparing two totally different ship types with totally different roles and this is not only unfair to compare, it is simply incompatible. They simply do not fulfill the same mission roles, and to ask the Kihraxz, as fine of a Multi-Role Fighter as it is, it would be unrealistic to expect it to compete against other Space Superiority Fighters for which it simply wasn't designed to do. It would be no different when Germany in WWII started replacing Medium Tanks with Tank Destroyers (Stug III's) expecting them to do the same role, of which they - not surprisingly - were unable to fulfill.

As far as "Sadly, waves 8 and 9 have done nothing to fix this..." why would you want to be quick to condemn Fantasy Flight Games when it is you who are mistaken? Shouldn't we instead be quick to commend Fantasy Flight Games for making such spectacular games like X-wing? Why would we want to accuse them of making mistakes when, in reality, they have demonstrated - especially in this case - that they know exactly what they are doing. Maybe you should re-evaluate your position in this matter and admit that you have made a mistake - as happens to us all (myself included) and give Fantasy Flight Games the credit and praise that they are due.

Best Regards,

.

[Edit: Additional Content Added]

The thing is that all the superiority fighter you have said, are all a better multy-role fighter than the Kihraxz.

And another thought: both PS1 Protectorate and PS2 Scyk are WAY BETTER than the LS2 Kihrax. The protectorate is not just a better dial, agility and actions ("just"...), but it have PS1. It becomes a better blocker than a PS2 K (that still less enough to consider it a blocker itself).

And the new Scyk...is simply better a mangler cannon+agi than a single shield.

So, yes: Kihraxz really need a fix.

All other PS1 blockers lack the 5-straight, boost and barrel roll combo that makes the Recruit a supremely capable blocker. You might shoot before me, but action-less, you'll do a maximum of 2.5 or so damage a turn, and I will kill a ship a turn.

Wrong thread for the debate, but - Black Sun Enforcer.

He - more than the Khiraxz - is the one who suffers from the protectorate, because he's almost completely identical in capabilties, and is only really gaining a shield token for one point more than the price of a shield upgrade.

Second Turn: The recruits slam a 5 forward, one boosts for the block and the others focus. You can either take the block and be action less, or anticipate the block and have your ships pointing in very wrong directions, but with tokens. Either way, the disadvantage of lower pilot skill has been neutralised on the first turn. After that its a matter of blocking with 1 recruit, and lining up shots with the others, which you really can't avoid.

The Khiraxz has some nasty tricks of its own. Assuming only one ship can block a 5-ship swarm is optimistic, especially since (unlike a howlrunner crack shot swarm) nothing stops me flying in a fairly loose pack or line abreast.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure that if you do a 3 then a 5 (and boost) I've got space to have dialled in two speed 2 straights in a row (not especially strategic genius-level moves) without colliding.

[Wanders off to check]

..Yes, I do. And even if the block succeeds, the blocker is left with no tokens either, and potentially subject to several range 1 shots.

Also, note that when you're playing range games with a massed block, the Khiraxz has a few tricks of its own. That speed 5 K-turn is very good for clearing a mass in a joust, especially when moving second.

if you run them in formation you are doing it wrong, you need to run them out of formation to come at the opponent on different angles, this allows you to keep more shots on target later on in the game, and should only need to k turn one ship at a time

This.

I got horribly killed last week with my TIE/fo squadron by a trio of mindlinked protectorate fighters, and I realised after the game that I should possibly have (against every instinct) formed up into a classic 3x2 box and jousted (because I'm pretty sure he would have done given the chance).

Jousing with TIE fighters against the Concord Dawn all-stars feels bloody suicidal (and it is!) but I whilst I'll lose a TIE/fo on the first pass, I can keep target locks despite Old Teroch's attentions, and I can turn around after him, whilst he can only talon roll or koiogran one ship per turn.

Very well, I'll break out the math-wing, then.

Let's start with a joust between 5 Marauders and 5 Recruits, assuming equal pilot skill on both sides (so every ship in play will get a shot each turn). Initiative will be ignored, as focus+target locks will be spent on offense only. (Skip to turn 5 for the summary)

Turn 0:

Marauders: 25 health remaining.

Recruits: 20 health remaining.

1st Combat Turn: (assumed range 2)

Marauder's roll 1.5 damage each, and bump it up to 2.25 damage by spending their focus tokens. The Recruits do the exact same damage - 2.25 each...

That's an impressively large post, but you failed at the first hurdle.

The Cartel Marauders are PS2, The Zealots are PS1. At least one Zealot would be destroyed before it gets a chance to fire (assuming the Kihraxz player is not an idiot).

At the very least, the Zealots would be spending their focus tokens on defense rather than on attack, or they would be dying at a rate of 2 per turn.

Your maths is clearly just as poor as your understanding of the game.

Because whilst the whole squad will generally be stressed, you will not have too much of a problem getting an action

This is true, but I haven't brought out the hard counters yet:

3. Flechette Torpedoes - long range, guarantee stress, and damage to boot. COmbine with guidance chips on a y-wing for some okay counters, but not great.

2. Mara Jade - on a phantom, decimator or TIE Shuttle. Guaranteed stress after the first round, in mostly inexpensive or invulnerable packages. By cutting off all your red maneuvers, even the likes of Tomax Bren can stay outside your arc and plink away.

1. Thermal Detonators - you fly a swarm semi-dependent on formation flying and a stress-free environment. I drop a bombs a turn, stressing and damaging your ships action-free. Two of these on a y-wing with genius could break the list quite handily.

This is actually hilarious.

So, first you attempt to prove your point through mathematics. Then, once you realise your mathematics is garbage (because you forgot 2 > 1), you decide to ignore the maths complete and focus on the game mechanics instead.

Then, when presented with a VERY viable Kihraxz build, you decide to ignore the original Kihraxz / Protectorate comparison completely and go on a desperate hunt for hard counters instead.

Honestly, these attempted rebuttals read like nothing more than "Yeah? But but but but...". All excuse making, no substance.

You have a responsibility to adjust your argument according to the couterarguments it encounters. Don't go all post hoc on it! You did well by presenting your post in a well-reasoned way, with premises and a conclusion.

But you've now discovered that A) by your own metric (raw joust), Marauders beat Recruits in a head to head, all things being equal. B) There are some decent Cobra builds out there, doing things that Protectorates can't, due to upgrade restrictions, making the pilot viable (eg cloak on a ps9 sledgehammer is significant). C) Attani/Crack & GS on Blacksun Aces makes for a decent budget ship.

So in conclusion, your overall point still stands (Khiraxzs are behind the power curve), but with a few important caveats - the ship isn't complete junk, has some interesting builds, and has some players who can place well at tournaments with the ship.

In short, you shouldn't expect a reflective reassessment to reasoned argument from your interlocutor without also demanding it from yourself.

That's an impressively large post, but you failed at the first hurdle...

Cartel Marauders are PS2, great. That means that a 5 x Recruit player can set up blocks with 1 ship while taking offensive actions with the others. Its not necessarily a disadvantage in a competent player's hands. As for one being destroyed before it can fire, that's what the asteroid field is for, where the boost and barrel roll actions really shine. In the direct joust, it is true that the PS2 Marauder would win, but no competent player would let that happen - it was simply a highlight of the Protectorate's better stat line.

Your maths is clearly just as poor as your understanding of the game.

Here begins the pointless insults as displayed on every forum everywhere. Also, double post.

Then, when presented with a VERY viable Kihraxz build, you decide to ignore the original Kihraxz / Protectorate comparison completely and go on a desperate hunt for hard counters instead.

If you want to see it that way. The discussion shifted away from the Kihraxz and towards Kihraxz + Mindlink, and I adjusted accordingly.

If you'd like some hard counters to the Kihraxz itself:

4 x Royal Guad Pilot (25) - PS advantage over BSA and superior durability and maneuverability.

PTL

Dengaroo - ATT 3 + focus is not enough, anymore.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure that if you do a 3 then a 5 (and boost) I've got space to have dialled in two speed 2 straights in a row (not especially strategic genius-level moves) without colliding.

Fair enough, now that I look at it. The Recruit player has to start off facing the side of the board and 1 hard turn in to stall for time. Turn 2 the Recruit player reacts to the Kihraxz player to close to just outside of range 3 (and a range 3 fire-exchange works in favour of the Recruit, so there is a margin of safety. Turn 3 the recruits execute a 5 forward and boost, which will put them 0.5 of a 1-straight maneuver away from the lead Kihraxz(s) with the rest of the recruits just behind. A Bump is very hard to avoid there.

Finally, for the sake of argument, I'll put forward an all-generic (to illustrate the stat line superiority of the Protectorate) Protectorate Starfighter list, and whomever wants to can pose an all-generic Kihraxz squad to hard-counter it. If you're successful, I will concede that the Kihraxz is a viable ship as is.

2 x Concord Dawn Ace (25)

Autothrusters

Adaptability

2 x Concord Dawn Ace (25)

Fearlessness

Concord Dawn Protector

Total: 100 pts.

No stress-dealing PTL, I can one-up your BSA's PS5, and I will murder Kihraxz's in a joust due to the Title + Fearlessness, with which neither Attani Mindlink or Glitterstim can match statistically.

I concede that in a basic dice-throwing joust, 5 Marauders will beat 5 Recruits. However, 4 Dawn Veterans will beat both 4 Back Sun Aces and five Marauders.

I'm not saying I don't think the Protectorate isn't in a better place, overall, than the Khiraxz.

Just that dismissing the Khiraxz as completely inferior ignores quite a few abilities and options it has - the Khiraxz is (in rules terms, at least) the X-wing MkII (the T-70 being the MkIII) and it includes quite a few 'tweaks' of capability which helps the generics (hard 1 turn, multiple K-turns, 20-point cost) and a decent ace (who is a point cheaper than his X-wing equivalent and has a pretty brutal ability).

This emphatically does not mean Graz the Hunter isn't a bit of a turd.

At the same time, I'd far rather see improvements to the Starviper. It, more than anything, is shown up catastrophically by the Protectorate fighter:

1. A Black Sun Enforcer costs 5 points more than a Zealous Recruit. This is crucial, because whether it's worth those extra points or not, it moves the ship from "maximum of 5" to "maximum of 4" territory.
2. The Black Sun Enforcer gains a shield token. Note that a shield upgrade could be fitted to a Zealous Recruit for 1 point less, and give the two ships exactly the same statline
3. The two ships have exactly the same action bar and upgrade bar.
4. Whilst there is a 1-point title which gives the Black Sun Enforcer more options, the title is unique and offers no discount to the upgrades. It is very hard to argue it is 'better' than the similarly costed, non-unique Concord Dawn Protector, especially since (see point '2') you could fit a shield upgrade and the title on a Zealous Recruit and exchange it one-for-one for Black Sun Enforcers.
5. The Black Sun Enforcer's dial has the speed 1 bank and straight and speed 3 Segnor's Loops. The Zealous Recruit loses these, but instead gains the speed 3 hard turn, speed 5 straight, speed 2 Talon Rolls, a speed 4 Koiogran (giving it 1 more end-around option) and a green speed 2 turn (making it better at shedding stress).

Cartel Marauders are PS2, great. That means that a 5 x Recruit player can set up blocks with 1 ship while taking offensive actions with the others. Its not necessarily a disadvantage in a competent player's hands. As for one being destroyed before it can fire, that's what the asteroid field is for, where the boost and barrel roll actions really shine. In the direct joust, it is true that the PS2 Marauder would win, but no competent player would let that happen - it was simply a highlight of the Protectorate's better stat line...

So now you've completely shifted your position from "assuming all things are equal and equal player ability mathematically the Protectorates would win" to "assuming an experienced Protectorate pilot the Protectorates would win, ignore the statistics".

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

Clearly I should never go up against Astech when Math is on the line.

1. Whilst there is a 1-point title which gives the Black Sun Enforcer more options, the title is unique and offers no discount to the upgrades. It is very hard to argue it is 'better' than the similarly costed, non-unique Concord Dawn Protector, especially since (see point '2') you could fit a shield upgrade and the title on a Zealous Recruit and exchange it one-for-one for Black Sun Enforcers.

It doesn't, though. Only the unique pilots can currently equip Virago.

I do agree that the Fang Fighter has a better dial and more green dice. The Kihraxz has a Shield and the option to take Illicits. I agree that it should get something to help it. Still....that doesn't mean that the Kihraxz is utter crap, either. It does have a shield and it does have that Illicit. Even if just taking it on it's own doesn't mean that it's a bad ship.

I do think that the Starviper needs something. The title is good, but singluar. I like Xizor and Guri with the title, but the generics could really use something.

5 Cartel Marauders took me to the top 40 at Yavin and won me a store tournament this year. Black Sun Aces are one of the "Mindlink Six" as well.

I appreciate not everyone's willing to put the time in, but they can still get good results.

I'd still MUCH rather take a naked, generic Kihraxz over a naked, generic Protectorate as well (as I'm sure fickle will agree one extra shield is worth more than one extra inverted commas worthless inverted commas green dice)

I hate this argument so much. Maybe, just maybe, you aren't actually better than the consensus in evaluating ships, and you performed above their station through a combination of experience, tricks, and luck?
Not you specifically, but getting real peaved at people telling me that their statistical variance is the norm.

OK, so let me get this straight - you're perfectly willing to go along with people who base their opinion on the raw data but have never picked up the ship in anger, but you're going to disregard the arguments of anyone with positive first hand experience, because it doesn't match your own point of view?

I know I'm late to the party, but I do have to comment on this. FourDog's line of thinking says that someone who does well with the Kihraxz Fighter is doing better due to luck than all the other people flying the Kihraxz Fighter in major events. There is just one problem with this. Are there other people flying them in major events? I never hear of it. There are two types of people these days that take it from my perspective. People that aren't expecting to do really well in a major event and take a fun list that they want to take...and those that have actually practiced with the Kihraxz Fighter and seem to do pretty well with it. Now, you can't really look at other times than just the past year. If you look when things first came out, the meta is completely different now, so you are talking about something different. There are more upgrades and other ships (like Fenn Rau) to fly with the Kihraxz.

It doesn't, though. Only the unique pilots can currently equip Virago.

Actually, the Vigo can take it. It doesn't help the Enforcer, though.

It doesn't, though. Only the unique pilots can currently equip Virago.

Actually, the Vigo can take it. It doesn't help the Enforcer, though.

Nope. Doesn't help either.

So now you've completely shifted your position from "assuming all things are equal and equal player ability mathematically the Protectorates would win" to "assuming an experienced Protectorate pilot the Protectorates would win, ignore the statistics".

Equal here has the meaning of "equally high pilot skill. In other words, both players are familiar with the blocking game, and can use and avoid it equally. Due to the Recruit's boost and barrel roll actions - worth a total of 6 points on their own - the blocking game is firmly in favour of the Recruits.

Taking a look at the statistics on List Juggler, the Kihraxz has placed first in Swisse in 17 games in the two years since its release. The Protectorate has placed first nineteen times in the fortnight since its release. Now, you can do the math and see which one is favoured by players.

I really think you put way too much value on one ship setting up for a block, considering we're talking about a 5-ship swarm here.

All you're getting is setting yourself up for receiving range 1 shots from higher PS enemies...

It doesn't, though. Only the unique pilots can currently equip Virago.

Actually, the Vigo can take it. It doesn't help the Enforcer, though.

The Vigo can only take the title if it also takes VI though.

Kiss your son on the forehead for me Star Brother.

Done! My boy appreciated that.

One day in 2017 I am going to start posting content that matches that painting I did; of what My STAR WARS X-WING Games look like.

Really look forward to that Joe Boss! Keep us posted Sir!

Cloaking device and SPA kihraxz are fun. Graz the hunter and talon bane cobra both have a nice predatory feeling. I would take either to a store tournament. Im less keen on the generics, but they do have stims and crackshot (maybe a missile and chips too).

Scyks look interesting, ill try them again in a casual environment tonight. I am thinking somthing like: two mindlink manglers with N'Dru and a mindlink contracted scout.

It doesn't, though. Only the unique pilots can currently equip Virago.

Actually, the Vigo can take it. It doesn't help the Enforcer, though.

The Vigo can only take the title if it also takes VI though.

I mean, sure, while we're slapping illegal upgrades on things...

It doesn't, though. Only the unique pilots can currently equip Virago.

Of for.....You're right, aren't you? Does the bloody thing have anything going for it?

anyway, back to the point of the thread:

The argument about manouvring a pack of zealous recruits is a sensible one (you are the lower PS, more manouvrable ship so starting 'side on' is standard operating procedure) but a long way from unavoidable.

If you can arrange matters to 'burn' from outside range 3 to close to deep into range 1 (and you can), then you're also vulnerable to an en mass speed 5 koiogran over your head and right past your formation. Plus, as noted, there is no 'Howlrunner' or 'Epsilon Leader' - nothing forces the Khiraxz to fly in a tight, easily blockable box. I will concede blocking 1 is not hard, but by the same logic you're trading good positioning and your token (assuming you boost or barrel roll to line up the block) on one 20-point ship for the same on an enemy 20-point ship; this isn't an expensive ace you're blocking, it's someone just as expendable as the blocker, and there's no garuantee his mates will crash into the back of him.

Secondly, whilst I will concur that a lower pilot skill ship with boost and barrel roll is going to be a better blocker, I would respond that it's going to have to be. Because it's facing equal numbers of opponents, with matching firepower, who have (for the case of non-red, close-quarter moves) an essentially identical dial (yes, you've got repositioning, but that's giving up your action, which is costing you the very action advantage you're trying to 'buy' with blocking). You have to win the blocking game to make up for the fact that you don't win a straight joust.

Thirdly, an observation (more a personal one but with some experiene behind it): If ten ships end up in a scrum (hell, lets assume 8 because both players lose a ship in the first pass), then it's going to turn into a nightmare of collisions. Mass swarms are hell on both players to try and predict and are difficult to take all the way through a tournament primarly through the mental strain.Swarm versus swarm gets ridiculous. Even with the pilot skill advantage (I often use an Epsilon swarm and a Youngster swarm, both of whom move before a traditional crack swarm), unless you're a lot better than most players I know (and I'm including several store champions and a fair passel of regionals cut-makers and winners here), it's just going to turn into a horrible mess for both parties.

And if it does......It's going to be a mess of unmodified range 1 snap-shots at whatever target presents itself. And in that situtation I'd rather be the one with the shield and the first shot than the extra green dice.

Finally, for the sake of argument, I'll put forward an all-generic (to illustrate the stat line superiority of the Protectorate) Protectorate Starfighter list, and whomever wants to can pose an all-generic Kihraxz squad to hard-counter it. If you're successful, I will concede that the Kihraxz is a viable ship as is.

I don't necessarily know about "hard counter" - because I'm not convinced you'll get generic squads to hard-counter one another as completely as you think they can. Certainly setting the bar that I have to give a 'hard counter' to be viable is somewhat strict.

But, for the sake of argument, a decent fight can be offered by:

• Black Sun Ace - Crack Shot, Concussion Missiles, Guidance Chips x 2
• Cartel Marauder x 2

You now need to deal with potential blocks from the Cartel Marauders, meaing you can't just assume a fast move and boost as required will be clear, and (since this is a 98 point list and therefore I have the choice of initiative) you will probably be losing one of the Concord Dawn Protector Aces in the first pass (because an interceptor-esque fighter does not take two crack shot 4-dice missiles and live); The Marauders might or might not get a block but I can be fairly confident you won't get past them into range 1 of the Aces, so you won't avoid the shot.

You can afford concussions rather than the more expensive homing missiles, because whilst they behave a bit like TIE interceptors, a Protectorate (much like a Starviper) cannot use the evade action.

I have neither the pilot skill nor the firepower to peg missiles at the Adaptability/autothruster aces (where range 3 is as near to untouchable as makes no odds) but a Concord Dawn ace caught at range 2 is dead metal, copping an average of 2 damage including a critical).

In return, one of the Cartel Marauders will probably get hoofed in the pods, but two range 2 shots with focus and one range 1 fearless attack without is probably not quite enough to kill it thanks to that shield (it'll take about 4 damage, give or take).

There are enough points spare to hand out inertial dampers somewhere, which is good for annoying people. I'm not sure if they'd be more annoying on the Marauders or the Aces. You could issue 2 glitterstimms instead, but then you're at the mercy of random initiative.

Theoretically, you could go all out and take three missile boat aces with veteran instincts and glitterstim. That's relying a lot on you out-guessing your opponent's dials, though, so I don't imagine it meets the requirements for a 'hard counter'. I know a couple of pilots locally (unsurprisingly a TIE Bomber/TIE Adv. Prototype devotee) who is pretty good at it, and they could in theory blow one concord dawn ace to dust bunnies and handle the other very roughly indeed before it ever got to shoot, plus you one-up the pilot skill on the 'long range' aces.

I'm not claiming either as a 'hard counter', so feel free to disregard. But well-handled they are certainly not a pushover as a matchup.

Note - I'm fully aware that the same argument can be made in reverse - the Concord Dawn Aces have a torpedo tube and are perfectly at liberty to use it, and if we keep twitching back and forth modifying lists, the debate can carry on ad infinitum. But that is another point worth raising in the Khiraxz' favour - its secondary weapons are missiles, not torpedoes, which as a rule are a slightly better choice (due to thebetter 'tactical' missiles - ion pulse missile, XX-23 S-thread tracer, and the 'dodge this you 8?*?!?!! Crack Shot homing missile). In addition, the modification slot is more open (because you're not feeling guilty for not taking autothrusters) and the Illicit slot is good for missile boats (with glitterstim offering a one-use target lock/focus analogue). I'm not advocating Missile Khiraxz as a primary thing, but upgrading a missile-carrying Z-95, if you were planning to field one, to the tougher, better armed, higher PS and more manouvrable Khiraxz is not a bad plan.

Given that his pilot ability gives him a lift at range 3 as well as range 1, there is some argument for equipping Talonbane with a homing missile, too. Being able to lamp someone at range 3 whilst being as hard to hit as a protectorate and then closing to finish them off at range 1 (or drop shields and then hammer them in the case of a big ship) is a nice trick.

So now you've completely shifted your position from "assuming all things are equal and equal player ability mathematically the Protectorates would win" to "assuming an experienced Protectorate pilot the Protectorates would win, ignore the statistics".

Equal here has the meaning of "equally high pilot skill. In other words, both players are familiar with the blocking game, and can use and avoid it equally. Due to the Recruit's boost and barrel roll actions - worth a total of 6 points on their own - the blocking game is firmly in favour of the Recruits.

Taking a look at the statistics on List Juggler, the Kihraxz has placed first in Swisse in 17 games in the two years since its release. The Protectorate has placed first nineteen times in the fortnight since its release. Now, you can do the math and see which one is favoured by players.

Not to point out the flaw in your maths - AGAIN - but how many of those Protectorate appearenxes were generic pilots, and how many were made by Aces (such as Fenn Rau or Old Teroch)?

No one is denying that the Protectorate has some very good Ace pilots who work very effectively with a number of upgrades equipped, but how exactly does that show that Protectorate generics are better than Kihraxz generics?

You know what, I'll save you the effort. It doesn't. It has nothing to do with the argument. It's just you attempting to move the goalposts yet again.

But that's OK - any credibility your argument had flew tight out the door when you suggested Flechette Torpedoes - FLECHETTE TORPEDOS - as a hard counter to a Mindlink list.

Right. Out the door.