.

Good god, new-trilogy guys. We get it. You want to have your cake (strong female protagonist) AND eat it (who is NEVER CHALLENGED FOR REAL BY ANYTHING EVER except being an interesting character).

Right, if only she were more like luke, who really struggled to...block shots from a drone? Which is definitely a major failing that completely counter balances his instant mastery of infiltration, fire fights, dog fights, gunnery...

Oh wait. When the mentor he recently met died he needed comfort from the woman who had just witnessed the annihilation of her people, which was definitely a character flaw and not just terrible writing.

.

Good god, new-trilogy guys. We get it. You want to have your cake (strong female protagonist) AND eat it (who is NEVER CHALLENGED FOR REAL BY ANYTHING EVER except being an interesting character).

Right, if only she were more like luke, who really struggled to...block shots from a drone? Which is definitely a major failing that completely counter balances his instant mastery of infiltration, fire fights, dog fights, gunnery...

Oh wait. When the mentor he recently met died he needed comfort from the woman who had just witnessed the annihilation of her people, which was definitely a character flaw and not just terrible writing.

Or, you know, you could see the next movie and watch Luke get his ass mangled 7 ways to Sunday by Vader and a fricking wild animal, and overall being a huge failure in his Jedi training and attempting to save his friend.

To avoid being a Mary Sure, the character has to avoid being overly perfect, which Rey has not yet. In many people's opinions, she excelled at things that were outside canon (ex. success of several force abilities on the first try). If she actually fails some next movie, maybe people will back off her.

.

Good god, new-trilogy guys. We get it. You want to have your cake (strong female protagonist) AND eat it (who is NEVER CHALLENGED FOR REAL BY ANYTHING EVER except being an interesting character).

Right, if only she were more like luke, who really struggled to...block shots from a drone? Which is definitely a major failing that completely counter balances his instant mastery of infiltration, fire fights, dog fights, gunnery...

Oh wait. When the mentor he recently met died he needed comfort from the woman who had just witnessed the annihilation of her people, which was definitely a character flaw and not just terrible writing.

Or, you know, you could see the next movie and watch Luke get his ass mangled 7 ways to Sunday by Vader and a fricking wild animal, and overall being a huge failure in his Jedi training and attempting to save his friend.

To avoid being a Mary Sure, the character has to avoid being overly perfect, which Rey has not yet. In many people's opinions, she excelled at things that were outside canon (ex. success of several force abilities on the first try). If she actually fails some next movie, maybe people will back off her.

No no no, No. You don't get to bring up Luke getting mangled in ESB until Episode 8 is out.

No no no, No. You don't get to bring up Luke getting mangled in ESB until Episode 8 is out.

Which, I did mention she has room to grow. Just in her current state, she is what she is.

If we only look at Episode 4, Luke is a whiny man-child, but not a Mary Sue.

No no no, No. You don't get to bring up Luke getting mangled in ESB until Episode 8 is out.

Which, I did mention she has room to grow. Just in her current state, she is what she is.

If we only look at Episode 4, Luke is a whiny man-child, but not a Mary Sue.

He made the Death Star shot nobody else could. Without using a targeting computer everyone else needed.

He gunned down two TIE Fighters in a turret he's had no prior experience with.

He was a hot shot in a gun battle, apparently superiorly trained to the point where dozens of stormtroopers(who are actually trained in ground combat) couldnt take him down

Hopped into an X-Wing he had no experience with and immediately was an Ace pilot comparable to the likes Garven Dreis(who had been flying for decades all the way back to the Clone Wars), and Wedge Antilles, a pilot who actually went to the Imperial Academy and has also spent years doing combat flying.

Pretty Mary Sue.

He made the Death Star shot nobody else could.

He gunned down two TIE Fighters in a turret he's had no prior experience with.

He was a hot shot in a gun battle, apparently superiorly trained to the point where dozens of stormtroopers(who are actually trained in ground combat) couldnt take him down

Hopped into an X-Wing he had no experience with and immediately was an Ace pilot comparable to the likes of Wedge Antilles and Garven Dreis(who had been flying for decades all the way back to the Clone Wars).

Pretty Mary Sue.

Hardly.

The only thing exceptional that Luke did in A New Hope was the Death Star shot in his X-Wing and not getting killed by his dad (edit: Oh wait, no, that was Han's doing), who mentioned that he was unconsciously using the Force at that time. Period.

I'm just going to cut you off by saying any further discussion about Luke being a Mary Sue in A New Hope is going to be mocked and ignored. He was a barely functional hero. In every other aspect, he was outshone by those around him. Leia was more useful with a gun than he was, and faster thinking. The turret scene was nothing special, he missed more than he hit.

Luke did fly trainers and shot wamp rats, although this was never shown, A couple lines of text isn't as good and showing this in the movie.

Using a turret may not be too difficult and shooting something coming straight at you isn't hard. Though he clearly got cocky.

Luke had to handle himself around tuscans and was very comfortable going after R2, well except for that one time in the movie when he got his ass kicked. The stormtroopers let them get away, so they weren't trying to hard.

And yeah well, most action movie heroes are mary sues and Luke does fit the bill for that, but he isn't way over the top like Rey was mostly because there was a small attempt at making him not a mary sue. J.J. threw up his arms and said screw it, lets just mary sue the heck out of this girl.

I'm just going to cut you off by saying any further discussion about Luke being a Mary Sue in A New Hope is going to be mocked and ignored. He was a barely functional hero. In every other aspect, he was outshone by those around him. Leia was more useful with a gun than he was, and faster thinking. The turret scene was nothing special, he missed more than he hit.

Yes, that will certainly prove you're right, 'mocking and ignoring.'

Luke does well at everything on the first try. He's at least as good at stuff as Rey is, so either they're both Mary Sue or neither of them are.

Luke did fly trainers and shot wamp rats, although this was never shown, A couple lines of text isn't as good and showing this in the movie.

Using a turret may not be too difficult and shooting something coming straight at you isn't hard. Though he clearly got cocky.

Luke had to handle himself around tuscans and was very comfortable going after R2, well except for that one time in the movie when he got his ass kicked. The stormtroopers let them get away, so they weren't trying to hard.

And yeah well, most action movie heroes are mary sues and Luke does fit the bill for that, but he isn't way over the top like Rey was mostly because there was a small attempt at making him not a mary sue. J.J. threw up his arms and said screw it, lets just mary sue the heck out of this girl.

1) Rey has a flight simulator which she's been training in.

2) So Luke is as good at the turret as Han Solo is?

3) I doubt every stormtrooper was allowing them to escape.

He made the Death Star shot nobody else could.

He gunned down two TIE Fighters in a turret he's had no prior experience with.

He was a hot shot in a gun battle, apparently superiorly trained to the point where dozens of stormtroopers(who are actually trained in ground combat) couldnt take him down

Hopped into an X-Wing he had no experience with and immediately was an Ace pilot comparable to the likes of Wedge Antilles and Garven Dreis(who had been flying for decades all the way back to the Clone Wars).

Pretty Mary Sue.

Hardly.

The only thing exceptional that Luke did in A New Hope was the Death Star shot in his X-Wing and not getting killed by his dad (edit: Oh wait, no, that was Han's doing), who mentioned that he was unconsciously using the Force at that time. Period.

I'm just going to cut you off by saying any further discussion about Luke being a Mary Sue in A New Hope is going to be mocked and ignored. He was a barely functional hero. In every other aspect, he was outshone by those around him. Leia was more useful with a gun than he was, and faster thinking. The turret scene was nothing special, he missed more than he hit.

Luke only missed as much as Han Solo did, you know, the guy who owned the ship and has been flying with it for over a decade?

And Rey didn't unconsciously use the Force either? Despite it clearly being established that she is proficient in use of the Force?

I wonder what the double standard here stems from?

Luke isn't a Mary Sue.... He's a Mark Sue.... get it? Mark?

Luke isn't a Mary Sue.... He's a Mark Sue.... get it? Mark?

Gary Sue

Yes, that will certainly prove you're right, 'mocking and ignoring.'

Luke does well at everything on the first try. He's at least as good at stuff as Rey is, so either they're both Mary Sue or neither of them are.

Yeah, 'cause I'm really sick of people trying to pull this one. It's tiring and laughable. Its honestly like we're watching two different movies.

Luke fails repeatedly. Leia has to find a way out of the detention block for them. She outshoots him when covering them during their escape and they have to swing over The Pit of No Explanation. He has to get saved from the garbage monster and compactor. Han saves his life at the Death Star battle. His idiocy is a meme at this point.

Leia is a cool heroine. Rey is too perfect. The only time Rey "fails" is when she gets captured by Kylo, and that failure is subverted by having her not only resist Kylo's attempts to read her mind (which Poe failed at earlier) but reverse them around and actually read his thoughts instead and then breaks out singlehanded, making her entire "capture" a joke.

Yes, that will certainly prove you're right, 'mocking and ignoring.'

Luke does well at everything on the first try. He's at least as good at stuff as Rey is, so either they're both Mary Sue or neither of them are.

Yeah, 'cause I'm really sick of people trying to pull this one. It's tiring and laughable. Its honestly like we're watching two different movies.

Luke fails repeatedly. Leia has to find a way out of the detention block for them. She outshoots him when covering them during their escape and they have to swing over The Pit of No Explanation. He has to get saved from the garbage monster and compactor. Han saves his life at the Death Star battle. His idiocy is a meme at this point.

Leia is a cool heroine. Rey is too perfect. The only time Rey "fails" is when she gets captured by Kylo, and that failure is subverted by having her not only resist Kylo's attempts to read her mind (which Poe failed at earlier) but reverse them around and actually read his thoughts instead and then breaks out singlehanded, making her entire "capture" a joke.

I guess maybe we did watch two different movies.

Yes, that will certainly prove you're right, 'mocking and ignoring.'

Luke does well at everything on the first try. He's at least as good at stuff as Rey is, so either they're both Mary Sue or neither of them are.

Yeah, 'cause I'm really sick of people trying to pull this one. It's tiring and laughable. Its honestly like we're watching two different movies.

Luke fails repeatedly. Leia has to find a way out of the detention block for them. She outshoots him when covering them during their escape and they have to swing over The Pit of No Explanation. He has to get saved from the garbage monster and compactor. Han saves his life at the Death Star battle. His idiocy is a meme at this point.

Leia is a cool heroine. Rey is too perfect. The only time Rey "fails" is when she gets captured by Kylo, and that failure is subverted by having her not only resist Kylo's attempts to read her mind (which Poe failed at earlier) but reverse them around and actually read his thoughts instead and then breaks out singlehanded, making her entire "capture" a joke.

Hey look!

Finn and others have to come and rescue Rey, cause there was no-way she was getting off Star Killer Base on her own. Leia hardly outshoots Luke AS HE DOESN'T SHOOT ANYONE. But Luke is able to get the rope looped around the thingy and swing them both over nicely. Finn is just as important as Rey in the Falcon chase.

Luke only fails when he gets bonked on the head by a Tusken Raider. Inflitrate Death Star (check), fight off storm troopers (check), match experienced smuggler shooting Ties (check), fly X-wing better than any established pilot (check).

You realise Rey is a force user right? That's why she can resist Kylo and Poe can't, and clearly she's a powerful one in some way, seen as she has Obi-Wan talking to her and Kylo is aware of who she is.

But sure, let's continue to hate on a character. At this point, I'm fairly convinced this is a thing about girls with most people

Hey look!

Sigh...fine, one more time...

Finn and others have to come and rescue Rey, cause there was no-way she was getting off Star Killer Base on her own.

Hardly, she was doing fine sneaking around the base without their help, was armed, and would have just stolen a TIE which she could have easily flown because simulators, which were never mentioned in the movie, but only the accompanying novel which not everyone had read.

Leia hardly outshoots Luke AS HE DOESN'T SHOOT ANYONE. But Luke is able to get the rope looped around the thingy and swing them both over nicely. Finn is just as important as Rey in the Falcon chase.

Actually, I went back and watched it to refresh my memory. Leia and Luke both kill 1 in that scene. My memory of her outshooting him may have been more overall from their escape from the Death Star (such as grabbing one of their weapons in the Detention cell).

Luke only fails when he gets bonked on the head by a Tusken Raider. Inflitrate Death Star (check), fight off storm troopers (check), match experienced smuggler shooting Ties (check), fly X-wing better than any established pilot (check).

Their infiltration of the Death Star was a complete failure if it wasn't for the person they were saving, Leia, saving their butts. They were stumbling their way through the place with a great plan of shoot everything, including the control panels! He also would have died in the trash compactor, twice, if it wasn't for other people.

He didn't out-fly any of the other pilots in any noticeable manner, other than making the shot, which I have already mentioned and given him credit for. It was the only competent thing he did all movie.

You realise Rey is a force user right? That's why she can resist Kylo and Poe can't, and clearly she's a powerful one in some way, seen as she has Obi-Wan talking to her and Kylo is aware of who she is.

But sure, let's continue to hate on a character. At this point, I'm fairly convinced this is a thing about girls with most people

Of course you do, as has everyone who has made their decision months ago, and won't listen to anyone else's opinion on the matter. Just brand someone misogynistic and ignore anything they have to say. Let's ignore that they like Leia, or their favorite Jedi force-user is Ahsoka.

Nope, don't like Rey, must hate women, herpa derpa durp...

Hey look!

Sigh...fine, one more time...

Finn and others have to come and rescue Rey, cause there was no-way she was getting off Star Killer Base on her own.

Hardly, she was doing fine sneaking around the base without their help, was armed, and would have just stolen a TIE which she could have easily flown because simulators, which were never mentioned in the movie, but only the accompanying novel which not everyone had read.

Leia hardly outshoots Luke AS HE DOESN'T SHOOT ANYONE. But Luke is able to get the rope looped around the thingy and swing them both over nicely. Finn is just as important as Rey in the Falcon chase.

Actually, I went back and watched it to refresh my memory. Leia and Luke both kill 1 in that scene. My memory of her outshooting him may have been more overall from their escape from the Death Star (such as grabbing one of their weapons in the Detention cell).

Luke only fails when he gets bonked on the head by a Tusken Raider. Inflitrate Death Star (check), fight off storm troopers (check), match experienced smuggler shooting Ties (check), fly X-wing better than any established pilot (check).

Their infiltration of the Death Star was a complete failure if it wasn't for the person they were saving, Leia, saving their butts. They were stumbling their way through the place with a great plan of shoot everything, including the control panels! He also would have died in the trash compactor, twice, if it wasn't for other people.

He didn't out-fly any of the other pilots in any noticeable manner, other than making the shot, which I have already mentioned and given him credit for. It was the only competent thing he did all movie.

You realise Rey is a force user right? That's why she can resist Kylo and Poe can't, and clearly she's a powerful one in some way, seen as she has Obi-Wan talking to her and Kylo is aware of who she is.

But sure, let's continue to hate on a character. At this point, I'm fairly convinced this is a thing about girls with most people

Of course you do, as has everyone who has made their decision months ago, and won't listen to anyone else's opinion on the matter. Just brand someone misogynistic and ignore anything they have to say. Let's ignore that they like Leia, or their favorite Jedi force-user is Ahsoka.

Nope, don't like Rey, must hate women, herpa derpa durp...

1) All the hangers were locked down. Also, you think that tie fighter would get off planet? Plus, no hyperdrive.

2) Actually, Luke outshoots Leia in the overall escape - like, 3 in the detention cell, 1 at the bridge and 3 at the hanger? Plus others I'm sure.

3) If you're going with other people, you can't say Leia helped them escape at all - she put them in the trash compactor which they then needed help to escape from. Technically, R2-D2 is a Mary Sue, there's nothing that droid can't do. But it was his idea to sneak into the detention centre in the first place, plus all the other amazing escaping he did (also while armed I might add)

Ultimately, Rey had help escaping from Star Killer Base (by the same number of people, and with more skill and knowledge attached to them to help in the escape.

As for outflying other pilots - he got dinged twice. Nearly every other pilot exploded and died. Wedge was hit so bad he had to fly away and Red leader died as well. And if we're going to be dismissive of Rey with a simulator, we should be dismissive of Luke flying a skyhopper. It's like all those bi-plane pilots getting into an F-16 in Independence Day.

4) Yes, I do assume some hint of misogyny for a number of reasons. 1) There are enough people on this board, let alone out in the great wide world complaining about Jyn Erso being a woman and how Disney are 'pandering'. Even worse was the backlash to John Boyega being a black-actor. There's a very distinct air of dislike around these decisions from some people. Obviously it's not always the case, which is why I went with most people.

Also, Mary Sue is almost always associated with women - hence the phrase 'Sue' - as if it implies women can't do things

And then there's just the ignoring the facts about the likes of Luke, or heck, even Han and Leia are both pretty unflappable, some character hesitation aside.

The point is, the same people who hate on Rey for doing things always find excuses for Luke doing the same.

Frankly, I don't care if they are Mary Sue's or not, but they clearly both are or neither are.

Also, Mary Sue is almost always associated with women - hence the phrase 'Sue' - as if it implies women can't do things

And then there's just the ignoring the facts about the likes of Luke, or heck, even Han and Leia are both pretty unflappable, some character hesitation aside.

The point is, the same people who hate on Rey for doing things always find excuses for Luke doing the same.

Frankly, I don't care if they are Mary Sue's or not, but they clearly both are or neither are.

Ok, I found the reason for our disagreement, you don't actually understand what a Mary Sue is. Its a writer self-insert character that mostly shows up in bad fan-fiction. Besides some traits such as romantic interests with existing canon characters and overly exotic backgrounds, they typically lack any sort of noticeable or relevant flaws. They are "too perfect". These characters were typically female, hence the feminine name Mary Sue. When the trope became more well-known, the name Gary Sue was given to male characters of the same type. Due to their unbelievable perfection, and poor writing, they are boring characters.

Not that they can do one or two things right. That they do everything right. Honestly, my problems with Rey honestly could have been resolved if they didn't have her do everything. For instance, if when she was captured, she resisted Kylo's mind-probe, fine (reversing it was a bit much). Then have her stay trapped until rescued by the gang or have the power to the cell cut out during the Resistance attack and her shackles open up and then she manages to pry the door open.

At least at that point she needed the help of someone else.

As it stands, she succeeded at everything she did. The only flaw she showed was her moment of fear running away from Maz's cantina, which last about 30 seconds before she was going back. Hence, relevant flaws. A moment of doubt instantly overcome doesn't count.

And before you come back with "But Luke..." stop. We've already discussed Luke, and I have pointed out many times Luke has failed. Point out a time where Rey has failed.

PS Luke is a joke in ANH. It's part of his story arc. He's a bumbling kid in ANH, a brash but growing warrior and leader in ESB, and the last of the Jedi and savior of the Galaxy in RoTJ.

PPS R2-D2 get kicked around by a Jawa. That automatically disqualifies it as a Mary Sue type.

Their infiltration of the Death Star was a complete failure if it wasn't for the person they were saving, Leia, saving their butts. They were stumbling their way through the place with a great plan of shoot everything, including the control panels! He also would have died in the trash compactor, twice, if it wasn't for other people.

Yeah, this is entirely post hoc rationalization of a position that was not arrived at rationally. If Luke gets dinged for the Death Star infiltration being a bit of a mess, why doesn't Rey get dinged for accidentally setting giant monsters free? Monsters which came preeetty close to killing Finn, and...well, they were less dangerous to Han and Chewie than the mercs. But you know what would have been even less dangerous to Han and Chewie? If she'd closed the doors. You know, like she meant to.

Also, Mary Sue is almost always associated with women - hence the phrase 'Sue' - as if it implies women can't do things

And then there's just the ignoring the facts about the likes of Luke, or heck, even Han and Leia are both pretty unflappable, some character hesitation aside.

The point is, the same people who hate on Rey for doing things always find excuses for Luke doing the same.

Frankly, I don't care if they are Mary Sue's or not, but they clearly both are or neither are.

Ok, I found the reason for our disagreement, you don't actually understand what a Mary Sue is. Its a writer-self insert character that mostly shows up in bad fan-fiction. Besides some traits such as romantic interests with existing canon characters and overly exotic backgrounds, they typically lack any sort of noticeable or relevant flaws. They are "too perfect". These characters were typically female, hence the feminine name Mary Sue. When the trope became more pronounced, the name Gary Sue was given to male characters of the same type. Due to their unbelievable perfection, and poor writing, they are boring characters.

Sigh... It's hardly worth responding now. You know your comment on people not accepting other arguments - right back at you. As I've pointed out, Rey is not 'too perfect'. Or she wouldn't have been captured in the first place.

And before you come back with "But Luke..." stop. We've already discussed Luke, and I have pointed out many times Luke has failed. Point out a time where Rey has failed.

Hahaha, you're right, we have discussed Luke. And you're just dismissing my points, the same way I'm going to continue dismissing yours. Still trying to figure out how Luke is a joke when, again, everything succeeds. And actually, I've pointed out that Luke doesn't actually fail at anything. Anything. Your main one is the garbage chute, which is Leia's fault, not his. Everything up to that point has been Luke getting them by.

Rey get's captured, sets the Rathtars free, only escapes in the Falcon thanks to Finn (you're the one who points out people helping), only escapes the first order thanks the Finn, han and Chewie.

There's a couple

PS - If all it takes is being hit by a Jawa, no-one can be a Mary Sue.

Yeah, this is entirely post hoc rationalization of a position that was not arrived at rationally. If Luke gets dinged for the Death Star infiltration being a bit of a mess, why doesn't Rey get dinged for accidentally setting giant monsters free? Monsters which came preeetty close to killing Finn, and...well, they were less dangerous to Han and Chewie than the mercs. But you know what would have been even less dangerous to Han and Chewie? If she'd closed the doors. You know, like she meant to.

In my experience, there's no such thing as luck.

- Obi-Wan Kenobi

Rey's releasing of the Rathtar's aboard the freighter was influenced by the Force and was what allowed them to escape the Gangs. This is further pointed out when she saves Finn by shutting the correct blast door by guessing and comments herself to Finn, "Wasn't that lucky?!?"

It was the writer's poor writing pointing out, again, how much of a bad-ass Force user she was before she ever got any training.

Like they did with her flying a few minutes before when she had "no idea how" she did all that.

Hahaha, you're right, we have discussed Luke. And you're just dismissing my points, the same way I'm going to continue dismissing yours. Still trying to figure out how Luke is a joke when, again, everything succeeds. And actually, I've pointed out that Luke doesn't actually fail at anything. Anything.

We're done here. Like I said, tiring.

Cheers and fly casual.

I think Rey would have escaped without their help, she was really close to those TIE Fighters.

Yeah, this is entirely post hoc rationalization of a position that was not arrived at rationally. If Luke gets dinged for the Death Star infiltration being a bit of a mess, why doesn't Rey get dinged for accidentally setting giant monsters free? Monsters which came preeetty close to killing Finn, and...well, they were less dangerous to Han and Chewie than the mercs. But you know what would have been even less dangerous to Han and Chewie? If she'd closed the doors. You know, like she meant to.

In my experience, there's no such thing as luck.

- Obi-Wan Kenobi

Rey's releasing of the Rathtar's aboard the freighter was influenced by the Force and was what allowed them to escape the Gangs. This is further pointed out when she saves Finn by shutting the correct blast door by guessing and comments herself to Finn, "Wasn't that lucky?!?"

It was the writer's poor writing pointing out, again, how much of a bad-ass Force user she was before she ever got any training.

Like they did with her flying a few minutes before when she had "no idea how" she did all that.

You can't prove that, though. Nothing has been said ever about the Force influencing her decision. That's an assumption you're making up to "prove" your argument.

You can't prove that, though. Nothing has been said ever about the Force influencing her decision. That's an assumption you're making up to "prove" your argument.

Subtext