In the Inquisitor's handbook on pg 168 (sidebar) states: "There are three major Navigator Houses in the sector: Houses Banetek, Gazmati and Term L."

In another sidebar (physically smaller, but w/ approx. the same amount of text) on pg 173 of Disciples of the Dark Gods we are told: The dominate Navigator Houses are "the triumvirate of House Modar, House Yeshar, and House Rey'a'Nor."

Does anyone have an explanation for this conflicting information other than that the writers and editors of these two books (or at least these two sidebars) did not talk to each other/look at each others' work?

There are quite a few easter eggs in Disciples of the Dark Gods for the sharp-eyed reader...clues and questions that will be answered in future releases.

As to the Navigator houses, there's not a mistake. There are three major houses...and three dominant houses...make of that what you will. For now.

Grumble.

I like a bit of mystery as much as the next man, but as GMs trying to cope with the vast Imperium of Man and presenting this to my players in a (vaguely) believable manner such confusion is the last thing I need.

I buy these books for answers and information, not for "clues and questions that will be answered in future releases".

Perhaps there was a Tradewar? that would shake up the politics of the sector somewhat, as well as throwing PCs into the middle of a covert war.

The winner writes history...or the one who pays the writer. In this case i would try to attribute it to conflicting opinions of the the historians in question.

But you´re right, its a minor quality problem. It just has to stay minor ;-)

Oh dear...

Given that both books are likely to be written from a semi-character perspective, one could assume that the discrepancy is due to Disciples taking account of "off-the-books" or illegal trade that the Inquisition and Imperial authorities are not aware of...

Lucifer216 said:

That explanation is kind of a cop-out. By that rationale nothing in the books need be consistent b/c its all from a "semi-character" perspective. In any case, the sidebars in question give no indication of being "in character" particularly the one in DotDG which is presented in the same format as many rules sidebars.

Ross's explanation that on the one hand there are "major" houses and on the other there are "dominant" houses works a little better and kind of sets up a perhaps useful conflict.

However, as these 2 little sidebars are the sum total of info provided in DH regarding Navis Nobilite houses/organizations, its kind a pain for those of us running games in which the navigator houses have a role. No need for detailed minutiae, but clear non-conflicting info as to the visible power-players on the scene would be useful.

As of IH you had 3 houses that were made to sound like the "big 3 in the sector." Now w/ DotDG and Ross's explanation, it sounds as if the three "major" houses are significant because of powerbase elsewhere and that the "dominant triumverate" of Houses presented in DothDG has the strongest hold in the Calixis. Seems like the DothDG group would have been the better crowd for GM's to know about first, as the agents of those Houses are the ones that Calix based acolytes are more likely to run into.

The worst part is that we will have to wait until RT comes out before we get the information.

Maybe the 'major' houses have the numerical majority of the navigators in the sector, but the 'dominant' houses supply the best and most effective navigators: the ones supplied to Battlefleet Calaxis, for example.

Also a valid interpretation.

Unfortunately, since each piece of source material is written as if the other didn't exist, we have no context beyond mere speculation for determining what is meant by "major" or "dominant"

FFG Ross Watson said:

Fair enough, I guesse sometimes even the 'omnitient' Game Masters must also be kept in the dark, so to speak. In honour of the theme of the game of course . However might we know just how much longer aproximately we might have to wait? Might it be near the end of 2009, maybe a few months, Deathwatch? Rogue Trader, a Future Designer Diary entry? Any such information might help those who may want to or already be using Navis Nobilte Houses as major ascpects of our games and also don't want to develope threads or themes to far from the 'established cannon' of Dark Heresy.

If it might be year(s) in the comming I'd imagine those of us who want to explore those avenues as fan productions and/or as aspects of our games might just proceed, however if it might be more like a couple months down the line... Just wondering.

As to the Major vs.Dominant issue it can be taken many, many diffrent ways I guesse for the time being we'll just have to 'make of it what we will'.

col huckenbein said:

That's the first thing that sprang to my mind, but then again I'm quirky...

Kage

Sanguinius jumped up on a pogo-stick, whine, whine, whine.

Maybe the Major Houses have Heirs Apparent and a chance of producing a Paternova, whereas Dominant Houses are dominant within the Calixis Sector giving them more immediate local power / trade / influence.

Maybe.

Happy Winter Holidays.

p.s. I created a number of other Navigator Houses Great & Small in my game along with various Rogue Trader lines. Here's a few that I use:

Grundenbremoch - Ecclesiarchy connected Dominant house consisting of an unusually stable Navigator bloodline wherein mutancy was never tolerated. Seemingly pious.

Laryx-Nor - Dominant Adeptus Mechanicus favoured house. Extensive use of servitors / cherubim on their vessels.

Ariomardus - Once a great power, now fallen to a status scarely higher than that of mercenaries, the Ariomardus dream of once again ascending to the forefront of Calixis politics. To this end, they finance and participate in a number of "questionable" ventures Beyond the Rim.

Tarkhunthes - A Major House that traces its history all the way back to the Great Crusade. The head of House Tarkhunthes, Hrunmer, bears a Charter signed by the Emperor himself.

Vomakt - Ancient Rogue Trader line. As long as there has been Mankind, there have been Vomakt.

Are you by chance still working on Dark Heresy? (In a paid 'professional' capacity I mean)

...and you should get your Kirby back, I almost didn't recognise you.

TS Luikart said:

Apparently not as quirky as some. That would work as well. With that said, one would imagine that both would work hand-in-hand with each other, or it would be pretty much dificult to be a major house without also being a dominant one...

Kage

Wu Ming said:

In a sense, yes I am still working on Dark Heresy... you should see the first of the fruits of my labors in a few months.

I am, however, no longer working on the line in any "professional" capacity - my contributions ended with DotDG... which I wasn't credited for. I don't blame FFG though.

Kage2020 said:

Perhaps. I can think of a few scenarios where this wouldn't be true though. You could easily have a Major House that was low on the totem pole in a given sector because their main interests lay elsewhere. Or a sector where the "reprobates" get shipped off / exiled to... which would make a lot of sense for a sector on the rim of the Halo Stars.

TS Luikart said:

There seems to be a bit of that going around. So we might expect something on Dark Reign, UA or elsewhere then... ?

Wu Ming said:

Something like that...

I promise you'll know about it when the stars are right.

ïa ïa...

See this is why a PM function might be nice, the thread jacking and all...

I know they can't publish everything about the Calixis sector all at once.

One of the best things about the 41st millenium as a setting is that it's so well established.

But of course, that means that fans will want a lot of information. Right now. This second. Everything.

But at the same time, it almost feels like Hey guys, buy our thirty-five pound books or we won't tell you the secret ending...

Headhanger said:

Hardly surprising. Selling RPG-books have it's own problems, like selling alot. Of course they will use whatever methods to increase their sales, which of course is good for us because we get more books. In this case I get the feeling that FFG is playing with words. If there is a distinct difference by houses that are "major" and "dominant" the answer lies in the words. There are three houses that are big/known and three that call the shots, otherwise why the distiction?

TS Luikart said:

Well, fair enough... That does seem to get into the territory of splitting hairs, but, well, I guess we all do that...

Kage

My issue in the OP was more one of information that appears conflicting because each source reads as if it is independantly the definative say in the matter. (And yes I admit it's a conflict over a realively minor set of facts only of interest to those dealing with that aspect of the setting)

I don't mind setting driven mysteries, and I don't mind that only the broadest strokes can be applied to something on the scale of a sector w/ thousands of planets. It just kind of irks me when the little information given seems to be contradictory. Then when an explanation is offered it's: Oh ,it's not contradictory due to a slight distinction in phrasing, but we won't explain what that distinction means, just hint that there's some kind of important interaction.

(And if such interaction is important then any person who only had one of the two books better not care about that aspect of the setting because each source gives no indication that there is a broader picture or that the material from the other source even exists.)

I'm not one of the crowd that demand that every detail be nailed down, I just prefer that the ones that are nailed down on the exact same topic be somewhat congruent with one another.

This is not to say that a power struggle between factions who are for whatever reason "major" and ones that are for whatever reason "dominant" is not an interesting enhancement to the setting. I like and will likely use the idea. My problem is that neither source even hints at such at all. It would make sense to me that IH, as the earlier book, wouldn't mention the new material.

However, the DotDG segment could have really used a sentance along the lines of "This dominant triumverate [competes/is locked in struggle/sips tea/whatever] with the [massive numbers/out of sector influence/whatever the distinction may be] of major houses Banetek, Gazmati, and Term'L." Just one sentence to make a bridge between the IH segment that was the only prior info re Nav Houses in Calixis to the new stuff in DotDG to show the conflict, or at the very least that the people who worked on the later book had read the prior ones.

[i am aware that both IH and DotDG were developed under BI so this is not so much an FFG issue. Also I don't mean to suggest that I don't find both DotDG and IH to be overall great products stuffed full of goodies. I just prefer things that are part of a whole (such as DH) to either 1) have some continuity, or 2) have a substantive reason for the lack (i.e. actual conscious changing the way something is in the setting vs. Oops, better retcon it)]