I am with you on most of that too Brad, moreso since RAW sez there's no fatigue taken for using force powers. So at FR 4 or so yanking a Star Destroyer down...or a hundred is a warm up before breakfast.

I am with you on most of that too Brad, moreso since RAW sez there's no fatigue taken for using force powers. So at FR 4 or so yanking a Star Destroyer down...or a hundred is a warm up before breakfast.

I don’t like the move power very much because lots of it is left very vague and it seems unnecessary complicated to me. However, let’s have some fun pulling Star Destroyers (SD) out of the sky.

Throwing Star Destroyers is easy? Okay, let’s do it!

First we’ll count the Force Pips we need to activate the power.

Let’s assume the player has the basic power and all 4 strength upgrades (65 XP).

One pip to activate the basic power, plus two pips to activate the range upgrades twice, makes three pips.

But then the player would have to be at short personal range from the Star Destroyer. So let’s add all 3 of the range upgrades (+35 XP).

Now the PC needs 4 pips to move the SD. So, theoretically, by spending 100 XP on the move tree, the PC can move a SD with a Force Rating of 2 (+>60 XP). But the PC still has to be at personal extreme range from the SD, which translates to close range in planetary scale.

So here we hit the first speed bump. IMO according to RAW the PC would have to get within close range (planetary) of the SD and can then only move it within close range (planetary). Usually Star Destroyers keep at least medium (planetary) distance from anything else.

So, can we still get the famous Force Unleashed cut scene if we really want to?

Sure, let’s be a really lenient GM, and allow the repeated activation of the range upgrades to get the PC beyond extreme personal range and into the realm of planetary range.

The Star Destroyer in closest orbit would be medium (planetary) at least. Assuming all 3 range upgrades again, the range upgrades would have to be activated thrice (first for close (planetary), second for short, third for medium. By the way: I love the word “thrice”).

So we now need a minimum of 6 pips to pull the SD out of the sky, which translates to a minimum Force Rating of 3.

Now the PC has two options: Using the hurl control upgrade or not. If the PC doesn’t want to use the control upgrade, I still would make this an opposed check, using the PC’s discipline against the SD pilot’s Piloting (space) or the SD commander’s Leadership. Since the PC has a good chance on succeeding such an opposed check, let’s assume the SD has been successfully pulled out of the sky. Well, while it potentially crushed anything below it, that couldn’t get out of the way, the Star Destroyer itself technically didn’t take any damage. Let’s say it suffered a major collision according to the collision rules for starships and vehicles.

Not very satisfying, so let’s hurl the SD towards the planet to really show it who’s boss: Now it is a discipline check (with 2 blue boost dice for aiming twice) against 8 (EIGHT!) purple dice, and 2 black dice (SD’s shields/defense). Even a PC really skilled in discipline needs a good bit of luck on that one and will likely take at least some strain (from threat). If there is an important NPC with ranks in adversary commanding the ship, I would upgrade the check accordingly.

Let’s assume the PC was lucky and take a look at the damage: 10 times the silhouette plus successes makes at least 81 damage, so anyone standing where the thing landed is dead. But for the Star Destroyer this translates to only 8 damage because of the scaling between vehicle and personal scale damage. Which is completely absorbed by the 10 armor points of the SD. But again, the generous GM will at least throw in a major collision, so the SD takes 1 crit.

I might even say, since it count’s as a ranged attack, triumphs may be used to cause a critical hit. (The crit rating for move I would set to 5, same as for improvised weapons, which translates to 7 for Star Destroyers (due to massive 2) and becomes therefore irrelevant.)

So, even stretching RAW, it is REALLY difficult to damage a Star Destroyer using the Move Power and it seems almost impossible to destroy it. (Unless the GM throws in one major collision and the PC gets tons of triumphs (at least 5, if the ship was previously undamaged).)

So, Star Destroyers and ships in general are mostly immune to the move power. Either through range limitation or through the scaling of damage. It is personal scale combat where move can be devastating if the PCs finds large items to hurl around.

What I find most troublesome about the move power is the magnitude upgrade. While it works great for sil 0 objects, it seems weird, that for just +30 XP and one more Force Pip (now we need FR 4) the PC can now do this to 5 Star Destroyers at once, without an increased difficulty. Well, I guess the balancing factor is range again, since you should never find 5 Star Destroyers all in medium range from you.

Speaking of range again: If the moving of the Star Destroyer (or any other ship for that instance) is happening in structured time, I would only allow for it to be moved 1 (ONE) planetary range band per round! Otherwise the PC is potentially moving the ship faster than it could go by itself (and that would be very game breaking). So in structured time I would allow the PC to move the targeted ship one range band (planetary) and if the PC wants to stop the ship from moving somewhere else on the NPC’s turn, the PC would have to commit a Force Die and suffer Strain equal to the ship’s silhouette, like it is suggested in the box on page 299 FaD-CRB. And every round the PC would need to make a new move power check.

To summarize: While it is possible to move a Star Destroyer with Force Rating 2 and pull it out of the sky with Force Rating 3, it is not very reliable since you’d need 2 pips on each die, and you’ll suffer strain for dark side pips. While it might seem OP to be able to do that at such a relative low force rating it fits the spirit of “size matters not”. At higher Force Rating your chances for success are much better, at FR 4 you could reliably lift a SD and at FR 6 you could pull it out of the sky. But you also need to succeed on the discipline check and better be willing to take some strain for dark side pips and threat.

And since the damage you can cause with the move power in starship or vehicle combat is very limiting, I don’t think it is game breaking here. Forcing two Tie Fighters into a collision with the move power, could be a cool scene IMO. But they will only suffer 1 damage (and possibly a collision), so the gunner will be far more effective.

Tl;dr: Moving large objects is doable, as long as they are within personal range, because “size matters not”. If you don’t want Star Destroyers to be pulled out of the sky in your game, don’t allow the use of the move power at planetary range. If you allow the move power on planetary range, remember that it deals personal range damage; therefore damaging ships is very hard to do.

May Force Rating be with you!

Fred

Now it is a discipline check (with 2 blue boost dice for aiming twice) against 8 (EIGHT!) purple dice, and 2 black dice (SD’s shields/defense).

Technically the difficulty caps at 5, the player would have to spend a DP to try to achieve an "impossible" task. The 5 dice would be upgraded 3 times, so the final pool would be RRRPP.

It's definitely hard to do, so it's hard to say it's overpowered (not to mention many chances for Despair). My beef with it is that a) it's possible to even try; and b) the Move tree could have been so much more interesting if they dispensed with the raw power focus and added tactical flavour. All the other trees are pretty nifty.

Now it is a discipline check (with 2 blue boost dice for aiming twice) against 8 (EIGHT!) purple dice, and 2 black dice (SD’s shields/defense).

Technically the difficulty caps at 5, the player would have to spend a DP to try to achieve an "impossible" task. The 5 dice would be upgraded 3 times, so the final pool would be RRRPP.

You are right, the difficulty for "tasks" ranges from 0 (simple tasks) to 5 (formidable tasks). Impossible tasks need a destiny point (in which case the player can't use any dark side pips) and are still at 5 purple dice, so I'm not sure about the upgrades you are imposing.

However, my understanding of the rules was that those are the difficulties for general tasks you want your PCs to roll against. I don't think there is a hard cap on dificulty dice. E.g. an opposed check, where the opposing party has a 6 or 7 in the relevant characteristic would result in 6 or 7 difficulty dice (which are then upgraded by the ranks).

So in this case I would rule that the number of difficulty dice is still 8 (EIGHT!), since the rules say it should equal the silhouette, which supercedes the usual rule for "defining task difficulties". This is because it is a combat check and not a mere task. Combat checks and opposed checks have their own set difficulties, all other tasks follow the rule you stated. At least that's how I interpret it.

May your Formidable Tasks succeed,

Fred

You are right, the difficulty for "tasks" ranges from 0 (simple tasks) to 5 (formidable tasks). Impossible tasks need a destiny point (in which case the player can't use any dark side pips) and are still at 5 purple dice, so I'm not sure about the upgrades you are imposing.

The upgrades are the 3 leftover from Silhouette (8 - 5 = 3). I could be wrong about the max dice, but I find upgrading more interesting than simply adding purples.

"Wow...you succeeded at pulling the SD out of orbit! Too bad you totally crushed the Rebel base..."

It is at the GMs descretion if you want to Upgrade the purples to red or not.

Sam did mentioned it in combination with a "Weapon modifing" question (Since an Illum Crystall also exceeds the 5 purple cap).

this will also show the desparation and danger of this action.

Just think about it... an ISD is big enough to smash everything within extrem (personal) range so if you use the hurl control it is very likley you hit EVERYTHING and EVERYONE at once... including yourself and your teammates... Nice way to end the story...

BTW, Move still operates on personal scale range bands, so good luck with pulling something out of orbit … though you certainly could move a small maintain.

Generally you want to focus on one type of upgrade at low levels. When you hit FR 2, you can start using an upgrade reliably, but if you spread it out it's going to be difficult. Taking Move as our example: If I want to start throwing things at people and doing a lot of damage, I could invest in Strength (to throw something big) or Magnitude (to throw a lot of things). Now, I could invest in both,as that gives me options, but I can't rely on generating enough Force Pips to power both upgrades at once. I would get more bang for my buck if I grab several ranks of a single upgrade. If I have Strength 3, then with only 2 pips, I can pick up a TIE fighter and throw it. If I have Magnitude 3, I could basically start auto-firing rocks, shards of glass, or whatever debris is lying around, again for 2 pips. That TIE will hurt a lot more, but a smart GM won't be giving you too many Sil 3 objects to throw. Some, of course, because that's cool, but not a dozen each fight. Rocks and garbage should be abundant all the time.

Pffff. Smart GMs will let you walk the decks of a tidy and blank star destroyer. You might find dozens of TIE-Fighters in the halls, but not a single piece of garage outside of the trash compactor. GMs are such nasty persons, always abused the choices of their players … SCNR.

Though a little more serious: If you grab the control pull upgrade you might help yourself in a lot of cases. If nothing big is laying around, you just rip-off something big enough to throw out of the environment and if you need lots of small stuff for autofire you could always just create small pieces of debris by ripping off smaller junks out of your environment.

And if you are really sneaky you disassemble the weapons of your opposition with the last control upgrade and mental tools. Tons of debris to throw at them afterwards too.