Currently it’s quite clear that Force Protection is a little underpowered, perhaps poorly worded and lacking some punch, especially when compared to using Enhance. As a suggestion, what if it were reworded:

Current:

Perform a Force Protection maneuver, suffer 1 strain and commit FR up to ranks of Force Protection. Increase Soak by the number of committed FR until the beginning of the next turn. Suffer 1 Strain every round while committed.

New:

1. Perform a Force Protection action, suffer 2 strain and commit FR. For each committed FR, increase Soak by the number of ranks of Force Protection until the beginning of the next turn. Suffer 2 Strain every round while committed.

(Allows for a large bonus that scales with Force rating. This does come close to Protect/Unleash's efficacy).

2. Perform a Force Protection maneuver, suffer 1 strain and commit FR. Increase Soak by the number of ranks of Force Protection until the beginning of the next turn. Suffer 1 Strain every round while committed. May not commit more than 1 FR. (Allows for a smaller bonus that does not scale, can still be combined with Enhance/Sense).

3: Perform a Force Protection action and commit one or more FR. For each FR committed, upgrade the difficulty of all combat checks against the target once. Committed FR may not exceed ranks in Force Protection. Last until the beginning of the next turn. Suffer 2/3 Strain every round while committed.

(If you look at the Protector it's all about healing wounds and reducing the POTENTIAL for damage (Centre of Being, Force Protection, Bodyguard), by upgrading difficulties, increases required advantages to critical hit and soaking up damage. Perhaps Force Protection should function more like the defensive side of Sense?)

Discuss…

Why do you think it's underpowered? I'd be interested in hearing why you think it doesn't work in its current configuration.

....So basically you don't like that if you have 2 Rank in Force Protection you also need an FR of 2 to utilize both ranks, and an FR of 3+ to use both ranks of protect and do other force stuff?

I think criticism of Force Protection is fair. It requires a maneuver, a moderate strain cost, and the commit of one or two Force dice for, at most, +1 or +2 soak.

If we look at other talents that increase soak, Force Protection is clearly inferior:

Enduring is a flat +1 soak. No action, strain, or Force commit needed;

Armor Master is another. It has two downsides that Enduring lacks (it's not ranked and so limited to +1, and requires you to be wearing armor), but it still requires no action or strain, and near all characters will wear armor. Heck, noble regalia counts as armor, so basically as long as you're wearing clothes Armor Matter applies!

Prime Positions is a bit more comparable to Force Protection: it requires that you take cover (a maneuver) which implicitly requires you be in an environment where there is cover, and offers no help against melee attacks. However, there is no additional cost (strain or commits), cover is fairly ubiquitous, taking cover offers additional benefits above soak, and Prime Positions also benefits your allies in short range.

Finally, we have Heroic Resilience. You spend a Destiny Point to add soak equal to your ranks in Resilience against one attack. This services a different niche than Force Protection, but I still think it comes out ahead, as it can potentially add +5 soak against an attack, and still doesn't require any of your precious strain, actions, or Force dice.

That's without getting into the other things you could potentially do with those Force dice. Commonly, using Enhance to up your Brawn is infinitely better then Force Protection: with Force Protection, you commit two Force dice with a maneuver at the cost of 1 strain per round and get 2 soak out of the deal. With Enhance, you commit the same dice (as an action, admittedly), no strain cost, and get the same soak as well as +2 Brawn, which affects a whole host of checks.

Incidentally, your option 1 is my personal fix for Force Protection. It's still not great, but it's definitely better.

Thanks Absol, that’s pretty much the jist of it. BTW, Heroic Fortitude lets you ignore the effects of a critical for the remainder of the encounter at the cost of a Destiny point.

I’ve noticed there are a number of talents that provide a similar, but watered down, effect to the force power. I am all for this and it definitely adds a nice flavour to a specialisation without having to constantly dip outside the tree into force powers to get the full effect. For example, Guardian has Enhanced Leader (Influence has the full effect), Seeker has Intuitive Shot (Enhance – Agility has the fully effect) Force Exile has Overwhelm Emotions (Influence has the full effect).

However, some don’t work as neatly as others, Force Protection being an example. While it is a streamlined way to get to the bottom of the tree and get your Dedication and FR +1, and still receive a bonus to soak, it’s cost to activate and maintain is very high and doesn’t provide an equivalent mechanical boost the aforementioned Force talents do. In short: it shouldn’t feel like a chore to get the power only so you can get FR +1 and Dedication and never activate, delaying the inevitable purchase of Enhance Brawn tree for the 30XP. You’ve already paid the XP and you shouldn’t have to RE-BUY the effect because the native version is a bit weak. The aforementioned talents are cheap, hence why it’s okay that their effect is watered down, but Force Protection is 30XP, the same as Enhance, but it is extremely watered down. That’s the main issue.

I have no idea what you're talking about, my post clearly says "Heroic Resilience"...

>_>

Force Protection is terrible. Equivalent non-force classes simply get Armor Master, which is +1 soak to their armor, no force dice required, no strain taken, and no maneuver to activate it. On top of that they can install a cortosis weave in their armor to make that extra soak withstand lightsabers.

Force Protection is terrible. Equivalent non-force classes simply get Armor Master, which is +1 soak to their armor, no force dice required, no strain taken, and no maneuver to activate it. On top of that they can install a cortosis weave in their armor to make that extra soak withstand lightsabers.

Yeah....buuuuut:

Force Protection doesn't require anything but the force and strain, and it stacks.

So you can be nude, and boost your soak, which Armor Master can't do.

Or you can be in +3 soak powered armor, with Armor Master, and boost your soak... for something like what? 9 Soak total? Maybe more?

However, some don’t work as neatly as others, Force Protection being an example. While it is a streamlined way to get to the bottom of the tree and get your Dedication and FR +1, and still receive a bonus to soak, it’s cost to activate and maintain is very high and doesn’t provide an equivalent mechanical boost the aforementioned Force talents do. In short: it shouldn’t feel like a chore to get the power only so you can get FR +1 and Dedication and never activate, delaying the inevitable purchase of Enhance Brawn tree for the 30XP. You’ve already paid the XP and you shouldn’t have to RE-BUY the effect because the native version is a bit weak.

You are btw free to skip the 20 point version, take instead the imho indeed more useful rank in grit and skip this way the stimpack specialisation altogether and get center of being and especially heightened awareness which is worth more than a point of soak in a lot of cases anyway.

Force Protection is terrible. Equivalent non-force classes simply get Armor Master, which is +1 soak to their armor, no force dice required, no strain taken, and no maneuver to activate it. On top of that they can install a cortosis weave in their armor to make that extra soak withstand lightsabers.

Different specs, different tools. And force protection stacks with armor master and parry/reflect and a cortosis armor. In other words, equivalent specs don't get reflect at all and are more reliant on their soak. That includes btw armorer, which comes with armor master (improved, supreme), but not a single rank of parry nor reflect. Though gets the option to get cortosis quality via committing force dice.

edit:

Thinking about that, I might suggest my wife to play a pair of guardian protectors together next, combining sense, with bodyguard and defensive stance should create an interesting stream of counter attacks and reflected blaster bolts, add protection and circle of shelter and get a nearly impenetrable defense for the whole group.

I don't think "It stacks therefore it's good" is a great argument, because you're assuming infinite XP and you'd still want to pick up all the other talents beforehand. Given that there are easily 10 ranks of Enduring which is just +1 soak without any strings attached scattered around various trees in Edge and Age there is absolutely no good argument to be made that Force Protection is worth picking up because it stacks. You might as well go around and grab all the ranks of Enduring because they stack if you're assuming infinite XP to spend. Sure, Force Protection is better than nothing if you're in that tree already, but if you have a choice between it and other bonus soak talents it's the worst one by a mile.

Also, don't forget that you're spending the equivalent XP points for Enhance (30) as you do for Force Protection (10 + 20) but you're getting a watered down effect. Other Talents (mentioned above) offer a watered down effect for a cheaper cost, keeping the effect on par with the XP.

Remember the main argument FOR a rewording of the power is the following scenario (as articulated by Absol):

That's without getting into the other things you could potentially do with those Force dice. Commonly, using Enhance to up your Brawn is infinitely better then Force Protection: with Force Protection, you commit two Force dice with a maneuver at the cost of 1 strain per round and get 2 soak out of the deal. With Enhance, you commit the same dice (as an action, admittedly), no strain cost, and get the same soak as well as +2 Brawn, which affects a whole host of checks.

In response to SEApocalypse:

You are btw free to skip the 20 point version, take instead the imho indeed more useful rank in grit and skip this way the stimpack specialisation altogether and get center of being and especially heightened awareness which is worth more than a point of soak in a lot of cases anyway.

The talents trees usually have a fast and slower way to get to the bottom of the tree so you can access the "better" powers. However, I don't think the intent of the designers was to make something crap, forcing you to deviate around it entirely. The intent would be to decide between the quick, but less effective talent pathway, or the slow way with better talent selection. But your suggestion is definitely a viable way of "avoiding" the unwanted talent.

Personally, the game design is so good, I don't want to encourage "avoiding" talents at all, unless it really conflicts with your character's motivations or design...with the exception of Knowledge Specialisation, which could probably do with a bit of a rework to make it less situational. But that's for another topic...

If you're going to change it to make Force Protection be really worthwhile, then Option 2 is probably your best bet. I'm not 100% certain, but I'm fairly sure that Force Protection (thus far) hasn't shown up in many (if any) other specializations. So if the max # of ranks you can get is two, then committing a single Force die and paying 1/strain each round for a max boost of +2 to your soak doesn't come across as being that big of a game breaker.

Also, don't forget that you're spending the equivalent XP points for Enhance (30) as you do for Force Protection (10 + 20) but you're getting a watered down effect.

As mentioned a few times already, enhance can not push brawn above 6. In a lot of builds force protection is actually a lot more useful than wasting xp on enhance. Protector + Armor would be such an example, once you gain your second force point you immediately profit from the extra point of soak, while your brawn values are most likely at 5 or 6.

Though I would kind of agree that the way force protection works as ranked skill is a little bit disappointing, having to commit two dice at rank two to gain an additional effect feels a little punishing.

Before making a final decision on this talent, I would recommend you wait until all the various Career books are published for this line. There’s a very good chance that this talent might show up in other specializations, and therefore could be much more useful when those ranks are stacked.

As mentioned a few times already, enhance can not push brawn above 6. In a lot of builds force protection is actually a lot more useful than wasting xp on enhance. Protector + Armor would be such an example, once you gain your second force point you immediately profit from the extra point of soak, while your brawn values are most likely at 5 or 6.

I totally see what you're saying. Enhance being capped at 6 is a legitimate limitation. For example, if you were the Protector and start at Br5, you could get to the end of the tree and get FR2 and Dedication +1 Br, making you Br6 with FR2. In this example the Force Protection power would be more beneficial than using Enhance since you can still add 2 soak by committing your two Force rating dice since Enhance cannot affect a Br6 character; agreed.

My only critique is that this would be an extreme character with probably 2's for most of their other stats, i.e. a one trick pony, and this would be the only example of Force Protection in the current wording trumping Enhance. My suggested change would make it more playable in ANY circumstance, rather than keeping it the same so it can be used by characters with Br5 or 6.

As mentioned a few times already, enhance can not push brawn above 6. In a lot of builds force protection is actually a lot more useful than wasting xp on enhance. Protector + Armor would be such an example, once you gain your second force point you immediately profit from the extra point of soak, while your brawn values are most likely at 5 or 6.

I totally see what you're saying. Enhance being capped at 6 is a legitimate limitation. For example, if you were the Protector and start at Br5, you could get to the end of the tree and get FR2 and Dedication +1 Br, making you Br6 with FR2. In this example the Force Protection power would be more beneficial than using Enhance since you can still add 2 soak by committing your two Force rating dice since Enhance cannot affect a Br6 character; agreed.

My only critique is that this would be an extreme character with probably 2's for most of their other stats, i.e. a one trick pony, and this would be the only example of Force Protection in the current wording trumping Enhance. My suggested change would make it more playable in ANY circumstance, rather than keeping it the same so it can be used by characters with Br5 or 6.

Start with two 4s, get dedication for brawn, get your arms chop chop choked off and welcome to brawn 6 after 75 XP gained, while still going with willpower 4 and and and some 2221. (As mentioned the idea of having a couple of protectors who use bodyguard on each other was an interesting idea, so I build one for testing. If you want to keep it reasonable you are imho better off without using soresu technique in that case and focus on brawn, willpower for the discipline checks, could go with int 3 instead of brawn 7 with the second dedication or just spend some xp on mechanic. That's the other side of the game, 2 and even 1s are fine if you are willing to spend xp on skills, adding a green dice is more effective than upgrading a green even when the yellows bring the triumphs.

Brawl, Melee and Lightsabers make all the best of your brawn rating. The only thing I really miss with protector, armor and later maybe soretsu defender is sun djem imho. naturally you ain't a face character, nor a good shot. Outside of that it seems to be a surprisingly tanky build with interesting options, especially if you combine it with the other half of the couple going with protector/peacekeeper (this one with presence as secondary or at least tertiary characteristic).

Oh and btw, not enhance, but sense is imho the bigger elephant in the room, you want to commit one force die to sense for defense and builds with more than 3 points force rating are kind of rare and usually want to use unleash/protection too, which wants to have some force dice avaible to be effective. Now protector / niam might be an actually good build too.

I think that FP is pretty crappy overall, but there's a lot to not like in Protector if you're not just using it as an add-on to a lightsaber-based spec.

I also agree Force Protection kinda stinks compared to other talents. Do you think it would be broken to instead have it reduce damage (like Parry/Reflect) including from weapons with breach?

I also agree Force Protection kinda stinks compared to other talents. Do you think it would be broken to instead have it reduce damage (like Parry/Reflect) including from weapons with breach?

That would be similar to what Reinforce Item (Guardian Armourer) does already. You commit two force die to gain the Cortosis quality at a cost of 3 strain per round. Also, as you mentioned, that's the point of parry/reflect. The tree has one of each already, which is already a little strange given that the specialisation doesn't have lightsaber as a career/spec skill. A simple swap out might do if you didn't want to use Force Protection in the current form.

I was hoping to keep the flavour of the power the same, but with a minor tweak so that it's more usable, hence the suggestion above. If you look at the Protector it's all about healing wounds and reducing the POTENTIAL for damage (Centre of Being, Force Protection, Bodyguard), by upgrading difficulties, increases required advantages to critical hit and soaking up damage. Perhaps Force Protection should function more like the defensive side of Sense?

Option 3: Perform a Force Protection action and commit one or more FR. For each FR committed, upgrade the difficulty of all combat checks against the target once. Committed FR may not exceed ranks in Force Protection. Last until the beginning of the next turn. Suffer 2/3 Strain every round while committed.

Perhaps that would be more in line with the theme of the tree?

Before making a final decision on this talent, I would recommend you wait until all the various Career books are published for this line. There’s a very good chance that this talent might show up in other specializations, and therefore could be much more useful when those ranks are stacked.

Given the major pasting this talent receives from everyone it seems to be crying out for an Improved version, something that adds an additional effect to committed dice such as an equivalent to Durable, or it doubles the soak gained per dice committed.

Perhaps in the Warrior book?

It's really too bad that Force Protection wasn't just removed and replaced with Enduring. It's not like the rest of Protector is all that hot excepting Circle of Shelter for those that have a lightsaber-based specialization to boost it up.

If you are going to stick with Force Protection, then having it give (+1 Soak and -10 to critical injury rolls) per rank--effectively a rank of Enduring and a rank of Durable--while activated might be reasonable.