Exactly why I dumped Leia and stopped taking tools :-)

Seriously though... tooling around is tough work... the ideal carrier target is a mc80 command or ISD so you are locking down 5-6 activations... but what we see right now is just the opposite, multiple flotillas activating 2-3 at a time, with even surplus squadron activation capacity inside the fleet.... basically the worst environment imaginable for a fleet with 1 slicer tool... contrasted with mauler and ig88 at 36 points gets you a deployment, and Intel killing ability, which has a far greater impact on bomber effectiveness...

Well.. once people stop bringing Leia, you'll see slicer tools on the table ruining their day again. I would gladly sacrifice 30 point flotilla to shut down Yavaris for a turn as it makes a difference between winning or losing.

While worlds is always a nice barometer, it can be polarizing when viewed in a vacuum. A lot of people took more ships and more full fighter lists so it looks like dominance. Before worlds the major tournaments were dominated by all ship lists for quite some time but we did start to see a change. I'd just caution against the idea that you "have to take/not take x or you'll lose" mindset. In reality, the fleet builds seem to always fall in the middle ground so don't feel precluded from playing how you want.

1. The next major tournaments will probably eventually see the pendulum swing the other way with an all ship list and then everyone will jump on board the fighter hate.

2. If it doesn't swing to somewhat of a middle ground and fighters continue to dominate, expect FFG to take matters in their own hand and fix it.

While I agree with the general ebb and flow of the meta, I'm not sure what "ship builds dominating major tournaments leading up to world's" you're referring to? I guess it's the build that won at origins? He still played 8 yt 2400s. Or was it the rhymerballs all over the top of gen con and canadian nationals? Or all the regionals rhymer was winning?

The other thing to remember, is that all of those tournaments (with the exception of canadian nationals) were before wave 3/4. It's the addition of the flotillas that have pushed the squadrons over the top. But at least there is a fair amount of variety in which squads show up and what the rest of the build around it/commanders is etc.

I do feel like the large ships have lost their edge. What use they do see is usually still just pushing squads/ hunting flotillas.

While I agree with the general ebb and flow of the meta, I'm not sure what "ship builds dominating major tournaments leading up to world's" you're referring to? I guess it's the build that won at origins? He still played 8 yt 2400s. Or was it the rhymerballs all over the top of gen con and canadian nationals? Or all the regionals rhymer was winning?

The other thing to remember, is that all of those tournaments (with the exception of canadian nationals) were before wave 3/4. It's the addition of the flotillas that have pushed the squadrons over the top. But at least there is a fair amount of variety in which squads show up and what the rest of the build around it/commanders is etc.

I do feel like the large ships have lost their edge. What use they do see is usually still just pushing squads/ hunting flotillas.

I can give you a counterargument - flotillas do help large ships a lot as well, as now it's easy to get to 4-5 activations with multiple large ships. Based on my experiences, large ship lists are still pretty competitive in a current meta.

Here's a qualifier:

Can large ships that AREN'T squadron/bomber heavy lists do well? Meaning the focus is on the large ship. Not for instance having 1 MC80 and 134 points of squadrons. Not that the 1MC80 doesn't count, but it just that the majority of the damage and focus of that list isn't the MC80, its wiping people out with squadrons.

Lists which contain large ships can do well, without a huge fighter wing. Vancouver #2 was Rieekan, MC80, 3CR90's, 4 rogues. While the list isn't stored in complete detail, I think it unlikely that MC80 was designed as a carrier first.

However, that list still includes 74 pts of squads. (and is about the 20th percentile for points spent on squads. Median is somewhere around 100)

Slicer Tools on Quantum Storm is nasty. The Goz is much harder to get into place.

Slicer Tools on Quantum Storm is nasty. The Goz is much harder to get into place.

Slicer Tools Bright Hope - not as fast, but guaranteed to last longer.

Suppressor on that Goz. You come to me? Flip a token. I come to you, change your dial. It's a little pricey at 23+11 pts, but I think it's a good addition to many lists. Especially since I like Avenger.

I've ran a flot with slicers + tractors in my last two games (one as rebel, the other with Imps).

Had great use of them both times keeping demo at speed 1 and no option for eng techs. When wave 3/4 first came out we pretty quickly discarded these things because there were so many work arounds but in more recent games I am finding people aren't as much running the comms nets or officers needed to quickly deal with them.

Lists which contain large ships can do well, without a huge fighter wing. Vancouver #2 was Rieekan, MC80, 3CR90's, 4 rogues. While the list isn't stored in complete detail, I think it unlikely that MC80 was designed as a carrier first.

However, that list still includes 74 pts of squads. (and is about the 20th percentile for points spent on squads. Median is somewhere around 100)

I run a 5 Ship Liberty list with only 3 X-Wings and Jan. It's worked so far...(knock on all the wood in the immediate vicinity)

I'm still doing very well with nary a squadron in my list....but I fully believe that is due to the fact that I'm a hyper aggressive player, and other players simply don't know how to deal with it. With that said, I am very closely monitoring all these very interesting discussions, and I'm slowly adapting my approach. Adapt or die, as the saying goes.....

While worlds is always a nice barometer, it can be polarizing when viewed in a vacuum. A lot of people took more ships and more full fighter lists so it looks like dominance. Before worlds the major tournaments were dominated by all ship lists for quite some time but we did start to see a change. I'd just caution against the idea that you "have to take/not take x or you'll lose" mindset. In reality, the fleet builds seem to always fall in the middle ground so don't feel precluded from playing how you want.

1. The next major tournaments will probably eventually see the pendulum swing the other way with an all ship list and then everyone will jump on board the fighter hate.

2. If it doesn't swing to somewhat of a middle ground and fighters continue to dominate, expect FFG to take matters in their own hand and fix it.

While I agree with the general ebb and flow of the meta, I'm not sure what "ship builds dominating major tournaments leading up to world's" you're referring to? I guess it's the build that won at origins? He still played 8 yt 2400s. Or was it the rhymerballs all over the top of gen con and canadian nationals? Or all the regionals rhymer was winning?

The other thing to remember, is that all of those tournaments (with the exception of canadian nationals) were before wave 3/4. It's the addition of the flotillas that have pushed the squadrons over the top. But at least there is a fair amount of variety in which squads show up and what the rest of the build around it/commanders is etc.

I do feel like the large ships have lost their edge. What use they do see is usually still just pushing squads/ hunting flotillas.

I think we are kind of getting getting into the perception of history. Before wave 3/4 which is less than a year old (six months?) we had a large ship win nationals (granted with Rhymerballs). Ultimately before that while we had a few successful squad lists, people started threads on how to make fighters more successful or complained about people not taking fighters. Then there were the heady days of the all ship Demo/MC30 lists.

As someone who has played Armada since day one, we actually seem to be in new territory here. I'm really just saying that no ones need to freak out or drastically change anything yet. New things shake up the meta but eventually things tend to even out. There was a time when almost every other thread was complaining about Ackbar. Eventually people figure out how to adapt.

I'm still doing very well with nary a squadron in my list....but I fully believe that is due to the fact that I'm a hyper aggressive player, and other players simply don't know how to deal with it. With that said, I am very closely monitoring all these very interesting discussions, and I'm slowly adapting my approach. Adapt or die, as the saying goes.....

I feel like 3 out 4 times I post advice to someone trying to tackle max fighter lists, I'm just telling them to "play aggressive" and then they start speed 1...

I'm still doing very well with nary a squadron in my list....but I fully believe that is due to the fact that I'm a hyper aggressive player, and other players simply don't know how to deal with it. With that said, I am very closely monitoring all these very interesting discussions, and I'm slowly adapting my approach. Adapt or die, as the saying goes.....

I feel like 3 out 4 times I post advice to someone trying to tackle max fighter lists, I'm just telling them to "play aggressive" and then they start speed 1...

I usually start at max speed, and seldom slow down......

Ok. So, if large ships are an uphill sell, what do people see as the weakest of the 3? Home Ones, Liberties, or ISDs? I feel like people aren't bashing the ISD as mucb as the MC80s.

I'm going full Armada hipster phase right now. I ran a 2xVSD list for the hell of it Monday night. I want to find out what the "bad" or out of favor ships are so I can decide what to run for the FFG HQ regionals. Since high activation lists are big right now. I will probably show up with a 2xLarge ship list.

I have been feeling recently that Large ships are more and more of a liability and have a hard time making there points back. Its a catch 22, your big ship is awsome at hunting flotillas and controlling an area of the board, BUT it needs to perform really well consistently and be in the thick of it to do its job all while not dying to the tons of wings out there right now. Also being in the right place with it at the right time while being out activated and or 2nd player is tough.

I have been running a ISD 1 as just a giant beat stick with a 15 point bid backed up by a Demo 2 recently and I always feel like the ISD is just a liability and I should just take 2 raiders instead and more wings.

I love my ISDs but I do agree large ships recently have felt a little... off

Ok. So, if large ships are an uphill sell, what do people see as the weakest of the 3? Home Ones, Liberties, or ISDs? I feel like people aren't bashing the ISD as mucb as the MC80s.

Like I said earlier the ISD is the most versatile of the three and has the biggest stats of any ship in the game. There are few reasons not to love the ISD-II for a lot of things.

Going from that, the MC series compromise. Liberties shave points off and focus everything in the front... making it a great assault ship but with a literal Achilles' heel. The MC80s have VSD guns on very wide broadsides, but it's slow and doesn't have the hull that the ISD does. Each of them have greater weaknesses than the ISD, and it's a matter of compromising with what weakness you want to live with.

I feel the least excited by the MC80 personally. I like the weapons flexibility out of the Liberty and I like charging my targets. The Mc80 is a sit-and-wait carrier that is still slow, and best for hanging behind a fighter cloud it is commanding.

Ok. So, if large ships are an uphill sell, what do people see as the weakest of the 3? Home Ones, Liberties, or ISDs? I feel like people aren't bashing the ISD as mucb as the MC80s.

This is my thinking:

You pay a lot for these ships, but I'd say risk wise The Liberty is the riskiest. Against certain fleets that thing goes down like a flaming sack of sweet potatoes. It can also blow things away though.

The ISD is really a great overall ship and can do anything. The MC80 is more niche but has gained favor in the Flotilla age.

(Basically Ninja'd by Norsehound.)

I'll keep an ear open, but sounds like people feel the Home One is the weakest large ship. I can bring a 2xMC80 to FFG HQ regionals.

I know at least one local guy who just swore at his phone reading this.

Well, this isn't to say the MC80 is terrible... just that it lacks the hull and firepower of the ISD or the two-turbolaser 5-shield attack power of a charging Liberty. We gotta remember the MC80 has the ability to take two defensive slots and a support team for better engineering to refloat shields.

Still for all that, APTs greatly distort the game because of what they do when the ship carrying them can double-arc something. I really think these things need to be higher in cost because they are another reason we see a decline in larger ships: is it better to have a large battery that hits once, or a swarm of smaller attacks that deal crits by ignoring shields? This is how DeMSU cut apart big ship lists (especially rebels): Fly into close range and APT them to death.

Big ships can't compete with the instant hull crit power that MC30s, Raiders, and Gladiators are capable of. They work by pushing large amounts of damage to try overcoming brace tokens, but big ships can stamp out only so many small ships... if they're even allowed to, given the activation advantage stacked against them from the nature of MSU lists.

Well, this isn't to say the MC80 is terrible... just that it lacks the hull and firepower of the ISD or the two-turbolaser 5-shield attack power of a charging Liberty. We gotta remember the MC80 has the ability to take two defensive slots and a support team for better engineering to refloat shields.

Still for all that, APTs greatly distort the game because of what they do when the ship carrying them can double-arc something. I really think these things need to be higher in cost because they are another reason we see a decline in larger ships: is it better to have a large battery that hits once, or a swarm of smaller attacks that deal crits by ignoring shields? This is how DeMSU cut apart big ship lists (especially rebels): Fly into close range and APT them to death.

Big ships can't compete with the instant hull crit power that MC30s, Raiders, and Gladiators are capable of. They work by pushing large amounts of damage to try overcoming brace tokens, but big ships can stamp out only so many small ships... if they're even allowed to, given the activation advantage stacked against them from the nature of MSU lists.

I think that's why there is a new upgrade that rumor says it negates non-standard crits. FFG knows how to keep the game balanced.

I'll keep an ear open, but sounds like people feel the Home One is the weakest large ship. I can bring a 2xMC80 to FFG HQ regionals.

I know at least one local guy who just swore at his phone reading this.

**** IT.

There are quite a major challenges for large ships at present. I think the main ones are

1) There are really solid small ship options which do a disproportionate amount of damage, are tough, and very hard to stop on the way in - Demo, Admo and Yavaris are basically everywhere and are deadly. Even if your large ship can stand up to the damage they do and escape, its probably now easy prey for threat 2)

2) Because small ships are so much cheaper, they allow plenty of useful flotilla activations, pushing a wave of bomber commanded squadrons!

3) A separate point, but many objectives make it very hard for large ships to get opportunities to bring their firepower to bear.

Part of the answer may be to get better as second player? That way most wanted favours you, there are good yellows that can get you heaps of points nd force the small ships to engage. But the blue one is still probably garbage for you, and he will probably have first/last activation advantage.....

A list similar to this will give you the ability to still play your large ships and have some pretty good fighter cover against the current bomber scene:

((Pick the ISD upgrades to your taste... this is just a thing I threw together. Maybe even go Ozzel to get speed a 1-3 speed variance and throw off their "anticipation" positioning for bombers - could be the difference between living/dying from the single Yavaris strike they get before it dies))

396/400

ISD 2 (162) - Admiral Motti (24) - Flight Controllers (6) - ECM - Dual Turbolaser Turrets (5)
ISD 1 (132) - Agent Kallus - OE - QLT - Leading Shots - XI7

Howlrunner (16)
Mauler (15)
Saber Squadron (12)
IG-88 (21)
Soontir (18)
Dengar (20)

2 activations is gonna get eaten alive by Demolisher/Adominition even if the over-investment in fighters keeps you reasonably safe from bomber clouds.

2 activations is gonna get eaten alive by Demolisher/Adominition even if the over-investment in fighters keeps you reasonably safe from bomber clouds.

Yes. And that's kinda how the game works, making it great. My post (as stated) beats (sorta, I wouldn't personally go 2 ISD) Bomber lists (the current "big thing") while maintaining the largest ships (the idea of the post). New BCC lists kill Dem/Admo because they can't kill the squadrons effectively enough and get rocked by lotsa small hits.

Pick your poison. This year bomber lists dominated Worlds... but no one was playing mega anti-squad lists because they were still afraid of MSUs & so the Bombers had free reign. I bet many there wished they had "over-invested" based upon the results of their matches.

There is always a "yeah, but this will beat your post" post to be made. It's what keeps the boards alive with chatter.