The only time I wouldn't fly an Imperial star destroyer would be because I somehow had access to a super star destroyer.

What I found odder from worlds is the lack of slant towards high bids. I always found large ships hard as they cant be optimized that well, but if you dont need a bid then that isnt so bad.

A few quick notes:

1. Large ships did not do well at worlds, but I also think that is people playing with the new toys.
2. I think there is no barrier to lists with a single large ship doing well. Keep in mind ISD+GSD alone won Gencon, and that the MC80 has a new lease on life with some of the titles in a flotilla-based meta.
3. To some extent, MSU also means proper utilization of large ships becomes more, not less, valuable. One of the most valuable kinds of activations in the game is when you can one-shot another ship, and large ships properly outfitted are small ship destroyers.

Jerjerrod improving the maneuverability of both the ISD and VSD (not large, but plays like one more than any other medium ship) will also impact this.

Another point to throw in here: a well-built and flown Liberty well TRASH small ships quick fast and in a hurry. I consider myself competent at flying MC30's, and a well upgraded Liberty will wreck me when I'm flying them.

Another point to throw in here: a well-built and flown Liberty well TRASH small ships quick fast and in a hurry. I consider myself competent at flying MC30's, and a well upgraded Liberty will wreck me when I'm flying them.

I can attest to the power of the Liberty. I've been able to 2 shot Motti VSDs with it, and nearly kill an untouched MC30, on top of all the 1 shot Glads, Raiders, Flotillas and CR90s. I just feel some games I don't get the full value out of them. Partailly due to mistakes I make, but also bad rolls unless I kit it out just right, but that varient takes ~150 points.

Not ever giving up my ISD. Ever.

Will report back on Florida regionals after next Saturday.

Hopefully I'll see you there!

Oh, youre in Florida?? Ha!! This will be good then!!

I love(d) flying pure medium-large ships around Wave 2, but I feel these list archetypes are no longer working. I had to abandon the VSD-ISD combination after some tests to downgrade the VSDs to GSDs for the sake of speed.

The way I see it, ISD-IIs will always be good because it has the highest battery and hull count in the game. Additionally the upgrade suite is very flexible and it's speed 3. It can be a carrier, battleship, or both. Both MC80s by contrast compromise on the greatness in the ISD to do different things. Because of how specialized they are I wouldn't expect to see them in all-comers list as often... it's been a while since I've seen an MC80 that wasn't a liberty.

In my view, Medium and Large ships suffer from the ability to respond to fighters and massed activations well. Take Yavaris for instance, sitting behind three B-Wing squadrons. Equip Raymus or any other token generator for the third squadron. That's six attacks, which can be pumped up by some BCCs and Toyrn Far to ensure they get 2-3 hits per attack. With six attacks that's between 12-18 damage over six different attacks. That's going to blow defense tokens and obliterate shields on an ISD.

ISDs throw two dice out on an AA barrage (which has no gurnatee of succeeding...). Even with QLT, that's three damage against each B-Wing on a perfect roll... not enough to kill them. And you have to sacrifice one of your capital ship shots against fighters. If you can't gurantee kills on the fighters but can win the game with all capital ships dead, how would you be prioritizing your shots?

Apart from the ISD and Liberty being used as massive hammers to take out choice medium-larges that someone decides to take, I feel the advantage is weighed in favor of small ships and fighters right now.

This discussion has left me with a FEVER... and the only prescription is SSD!!!!

4th place on Worlds Day 1A was a Mon Karren / Home One duo.

This discussion has left me with a FEVER... and the only prescription is SSD!!!!

4th place on Worlds Day 1A was a Mon Karren / Home One duo.

What kind of fighter concentrations were you facing Biggs?

Mythics keeps throwing Yavaris and massed fighters against me, which challenges my faith in big ships. His latest attempt is 6x B-Wings with Yavaris and stacked BCCs. It hurts.

Size matters not, how you use it only matters, it does.

4th place on Worlds Day 1A was a Mon Karren / Home One duo.

What kind of fighter concentrations were you facing Biggs?

Mythics keeps throwing Yavaris and massed fighters against me, which challenges my faith in big ships. His latest attempt is 6x B-Wings with Yavaris and stacked BCCs. It hurts.

The problem there isn't with the big ships but in coming up with a good solution to Yavaris and the B-wings.

ISD: I'd start with Norm's GenCon list and revise from there for wave 3/4. He had some serious direct damage anti-squadron plus the ability to use speed to control the timing of the engagement. Rushing at the list probably results in being tabled, and it probably wins the game on the squadron fight alone.

MC80 built as a Battleship: There was a top 3 finish in Chicago. They are very difficult to bring down when flown well, and should do well in the current meta. The key is having good supporting ships. I've been running MC80+3 Corvettes for a while, though not quite like the top 3 finisher in Chicago. These lists points-deny very well, so we should see more of them. Engine Techs is great on them.

MC80 built as a carrier: Fight squadrons with squadrons. If he's bringing 6 B-wings, then Dutch is a royal pain simply be deactivating them. The deactivation is worse than the damage. And if Yavaris is double-tapping Dutch, more deactivations. But even if you don't take Yavaris, EHB+Token is six activations, which can accomplish about the same.

Liberty Class: Ok, there's a big weakness to squadrons that you have to cover here. You can do that by really investing into your squads. Alternatively, you can play the list fast with Engine Techs.

With most of this units, you need enough placement to avoid compromising your powerful unit. 8 placement is doable in the flotilla age. I've even built a list centered around 9 placement.

If you're doing the basics well, they should be competitive.

4th place on Worlds Day 1A was a Mon Karren / Home One duo.

What kind of fighter concentrations were you facing Biggs?

Mythics keeps throwing Yavaris and massed fighters against me, which challenges my faith in big ships. His latest attempt is 6x B-Wings with Yavaris and stacked BCCs. It hurts.

It wasn't me. I am not sure of his matchups.

Flotilla and a big boy are popular here.

The problem there isn't with the big ships but in coming up with a good solution to Yavaris and the B-wings.

I'm routinely told the answer is "Slicer Tools"

The problem there isn't with the big ships but in coming up with a good solution to Yavaris and the B-wings.

I'm routinely told the answer is "Slicer Tools"

How often do you see Slicer Tools though?

If I'm building a bomber list, I'm taking an an answer to Slicer tools. So at best, it forces a slightly different activation sequence so Leia (probably the most common choice I see) can change the top dial of Yavaris. I think it has a place and can catch the unsuspected bomber list unawares occasionally, but I don't think it is the only answer or even the primary one. There are several possible answers depending upon how you build your list.

The problem there isn't with the big ships but in coming up with a good solution to Yavaris and the B-wings.

I'm routinely told the answer is "Slicer Tools"

Its not. Slicers lets you sit in or near a squadron ball, and with fighter coord teams, near is within.

So its a one time use.

Kill the intel units, kill their strategy.

Like I said, "Told".

I've not had any opponent use them against me (but a lot of, "Man, if I had Slicers...")...

And I've yet to purchase a Gozanti, because of b-s in my life.

So I havn't even used them myself.

Better to just kill the squads or carriers and gain points slash solve bomber problem rather than take 30 points to try and change dials and not get killed/Leia'd.... but I dunno... I can see how slicer might be useful for gaining your squads or ships initiative on a crucial turn allowing you to get in and kill some stuff while the squad command is down... but it's hard to orchestrate, and 30 more points of squads or upgrades is probably just as good...

Better to just kill the squads or carriers and gain points slash solve bomber problem rather than take 30 points to try and change dials and not get killed/Leia'd.... but I dunno... I can see how slicer might be useful for gaining your squads or ships initiative on a crucial turn allowing you to get in and kill some stuff while the squad command is down... but it's hard to orchestrate, and 30 more points of squads or upgrades is probably just as good...

Dude, you were one of the ones talking about how scared you were of Slicers, and thus needing Leia How the Tables have Turned

Better to just kill the squads or carriers and gain points slash solve bomber problem rather than take 30 points to try and change dials and not get killed/Leia'd.... but I dunno... I can see how slicer might be useful for gaining your squads or ships initiative on a crucial turn allowing you to get in and kill some stuff while the squad command is down... but it's hard to orchestrate, and 30 more points of squads or upgrades is probably just as good...

Dude, you were one of the ones talking about how scared you were of Slicers, and thus needing Leia How the Tables have Turned

to deal with Leia). And for anti-Yavaris fleets 1 turn of disrupting Yavaris is usually more than enough to get the upper hand.

Slicer Tools are still great against carriers, they're just not always the 100% lockdown they seem to promise. The thing is, if you're taking a bomber list, you really need to bring some mitigation against them. If you don't, you do face the possibility of the 100% lockdown.

Pretty much every mitigation has a downside. Leia has activation order implications and is herself vulnerable to ST. Wing Commander only protects your squadron command, meaning I can slide off critical navs and leave you out of position, and costs your officer slot. Liaisons are vulnerable to Ion Canon Batteries, and require some other mechanism to keep the token up.

Even in a fleet that only wants squadron commands and all has Wing Commanders, you've spent how many ships x6 points to mitigate the possibility of my bringing one 7-point card.

Exactly why I dumped Leia and stopped taking tools :-)

Seriously though... tooling around is tough work... the ideal carrier target is a mc80 command or ISD so you are locking down 5-6 activations... but what we see right now is just the opposite, multiple flotillas activating 2-3 at a time, with even surplus squadron activation capacity inside the fleet.... basically the worst environment imaginable for a fleet with 1 slicer tool... contrasted with mauler and ig88 at 36 points gets you a deployment, and Intel killing ability, which has a far greater impact on bomber effectiveness...