While I do think that Miranda is a major PITA an can easily be an NPE, I would be very careful about nerfing regen. Narrowing the meta is never a good thing.

Regen is a theme of Rebels. They don't have the tricks of scums, neither the agility of the Empire. The havey a lot of ship with 1 agility.

If you nerf the regen, you simply kill one faction.

That's pretty much it. If you nerf regen, more than half of the competitive Rebel options are gone.

What are they supposed to do? Their ships most often don't lend themselves to arc-dodging, they have 1-2 agility and evade is a very rare sight on rebel ships. in addition, their offense is not that much better so that you could just outdamage them for the win. So without regeneration, you are put on a clock, because your 1-2 agility ships will take damage when shot at, guaranteed. This is not the case for 3 agility ships with evade. They can be shot at a lot and will just dodge way more.

In addition, regenerating Rebel aces are all around 40 points. You can't take 2 of them plus Biggs or a third good ship. Empire has plenty of cheaper aces that are more capable on their own, plus leave you points to take 3 of them or Palpatine.

Worlds had only 25% Rebel participation too. Before Deadeye nerf this was even less on a lot of tournaments. Because regenerating Rebels were kept out of the meta. The alpha strikes were just too much. Now they barely are returning and the OP already wants to get rid of them?

I mean if you give Rebels a meaningful alternative to regeneration, that keeps their pilotd in the meta by other means, maybe you could change regeneration, but even then, why? Because if you know how to handle it it's not really that good!

I agree that regen definitely doesn't need to be nerfed, but I wanted to mention that in the right hands it is ridiculously strong. Even though there was a 25% rebel participation, they made up 50% of the top 4. One of those rebel players wasn't even a regen list. Faction is alot better off after the u-boat fix and that's great.

Corran/Miranda is a solid list, but it just came to the finals because it feeds on aces. Defenders, Palp aces, Fenn Rau&Company...

He encountered a lot of these lists in the elimination rounds, that's why he came so far.

Fat Han is also capable of this feat.

So these 2 rebel lists were good meta reads and did well as a consequence.

However, that was only possible after Deadeye nerf and only 2 Rebel lists made the final cut afaik... these two! That's only 25% participation and only 12,5% in elimination!

X-wing regen is about right -- 2-agility ships that are either action dependent or have a limited number of maneuvers to regen.

Miranda, frankly, shouldn't be allowed to TLT, because her regen becomes "free" by sacrificing one die of two three-dice attacks. That's not much of a sacrifice, vice giving up one die from her primary or a single-attack turret.

Corran is pretty annoying for the combination of abilities, not just regen. He has the double tap, regen, 3-agility, and the evade action. Any three of the four might be OK. On the other hand, he's also extremely expensive and keeps the other E-wings down (since they can't be "fixed" without risking buffing Corran).

So the problem isn't really regen, it's specific implementations in combination with other abilities.

Just play a ship that can give stress and use slicer tools. Ventress just poops on regen ships. They're not fast enough to escape her, especially limited to green maneuvers and regen doesn't do a thing against slicer tools.

Fair enough, as long as imperial ships can only use as many evade tokens a match equal to their agility value and we just pretend like the jump master expansion never happened.

Regen is a theme of Rebels. They don't have the tricks of scums, neither the agility of the Empire. The havey a lot of ship with 1 agility.

If you nerf the regen, you simply kill one faction.

That's pretty much it. If you nerf regen, more than half of the competitive Rebel options are gone.

What are they supposed to do? Their ships most often don't lend themselves to arc-dodging, they have 1-2 agility and evade is a very rare sight on rebel ships. in addition, their offense is not that much better so that you could just outdamage them for the win. So without regeneration, you are put on a clock, because your 1-2 agility ships will take damage when shot at, guaranteed. This is not the case for 3 agility ships with evade. They can be shot at a lot and will just dodge way more.

In addition, regenerating Rebel aces are all around 40 points. You can't take 2 of them plus Biggs or a third good ship. Empire has plenty of cheaper aces that are more capable on their own, plus leave you points to take 3 of them or Palpatine.

Worlds had only 25% Rebel participation too. Before Deadeye nerf this was even less on a lot of tournaments. Because regenerating Rebels were kept out of the meta. The alpha strikes were just too much. Now they barely are returning and the OP already wants to get rid of them?

I mean if you give Rebels a meaningful alternative to regeneration, that keeps their pilotd in the meta by other means, maybe you could change regeneration, but even then, why? Because if you know how to handle it it's not really that good!

I agree that regen definitely doesn't need to be nerfed, but I wanted to mention that in the right hands it is ridiculously strong. Even though there was a 25% rebel participation, they made up 50% of the top 4. One of those rebel players wasn't even a regen list. Faction is alot better off after the u-boat fix and that's great.

Corran/Miranda is a solid list, but it just came to the finals because it feeds on aces. Defenders, Palp aces, Fenn Rau&Company...

He encountered a lot of these lists in the elimination rounds, that's why he came so far.

Fat Han is also capable of this feat.

So these 2 rebel lists were good meta reads and did well as a consequence.

However, that was only possible after Deadeye nerf and only 2 Rebel lists made the final cut afaik... these two! That's only 25% participation and only 12,5% in elimination!

This. People using the worlds result to talk abut things should read this. In particular, the rebel finalist - avoided a lot of builds that would otherwise smack him down.

regen is no less fair than stuff like x7, palp, and the plethora of scum options that frequented the final tables at worlds

unless they all get nerfed, there is no reason to focus on it

So I got curbstomped twice today by Rebel Regen lists - two Corran Horns, one paired with Miranda, gets annoying real fast.

And even I do NOT want to nerf regen .

I played badly, built my list badly, and deserved to lose. I failed to account for the meta possibility of rebel regen being a thing, and it was my F-up. Pure and simple.

But rebel regen CAN lose. I've beaten it before. Hell, that Miranda/Corran list? I've eaten it alive despite an experienced pilot, and it can be done.

It has weaknesses. A regen ship can't handle more than one incoming attack a turn. It's limited to PS8. It has a big fat honkin' target on it. Two of the ships rely on tokens for survival as much as they do regeneration.

Knowing those weaknesses, there are tools for that; these are some Imperial ones I'd suggest using (and that I emphatically did NOT use today). Omega Leader. A Scimitar TIE/shuttle with Intelligence Agent. Three and four ship lists. Multiple attacks from a single ship.

You just have to step out of the comfort box to find them.

TIE/D's destroy regen ships like nothing I have ever seen, especially a pair of them with ion and TB. The only issues my group and I have discovered with D's is that it is hard to make a list with them. They take up a lot of points and really need a defensive mod, like hull or shield upgrade. Other than that, these guys make space dust out of regen, and even token stacking ships. Focus firing a ship with a bunch of tokens means he is going to run out at some point dodging 4 shots, 2 of which are control shots that any token-stacking ship HAS to dodge or be dead next round.

So after another game today at my regional where a ship regenned waaay too many times, I once again really want to push for a nerf to regen.

It's been my least favorite aspect of the game for quite some time. Nothing worse than having a 2-4 point upgrade give tons of extra hit points over a game if you keep running away to get them back.

However I realize many people like regen so I don't know how likely it is to get nerfed. Some would say it's no different than some of the extreme damage mitigation other ships have. But for me at least when facing those types of ships if you do get damage in, it sticks. You know exactly how much damage you have to do to win. Against regen you have no clue. You could get lucky and kill them before they regen even once, or they might regen a ton of times.

I think a fair solution would be as follows:

Update in FAQ

You cannot regenerate more shields in a game than the original printed shield value on your ship.

That means most ships who use regen in this game could only do it a max of 3-4 times during the game. That's still more than I would like, but fair enough that I think most people could agree to. I also put "original" shield value so that you can't regen an extra shield for having a shield upgrade.

What do you think

... so, you want to nerf the only advantage Rebels have!

Rebels, that represent 20% of the lists that show up at tournament. Rebels, who need amazing list building and extraordinary players to get to top 4s and finals of whatever. Rebels that have seen, with the release of wave 8 and then Imperial Veterans, half their ships rendered useless. You have one or two semi competitive rebel lists in the meta...

And you find that the only advantage they got, that is the ability of regenerating some ships, is Overpowered...

Here's a fair nerf to regen: Any Rebel ship capable of carrying an astromech or crew, or being named Miranda, gets +1 Agility, speed 2 green hard turn or white K-turn, free Evade action, oh and its cost is reduced by 2 points. Downside is you can't regen. How does that make you feel? Because that's how it feels on Rebel side when playing vs Imps.

Jokes aside, playing Rebels I feel like I'm paying "R2-D2 tax" on every ship that can potentially carry it. Stats and action economy are crap because "you might add regen" to the mix. Unless it's Corran, but then you're paying half of your points for him. I do think regen is a design flaw that shouldn't make it into the game at all - you might just as well add refueling and reloading ordnance in mid-combat, lol. That's how little sense it makes to me. But it's an idea around which the pricing and overall balancing of many rebel ships revolves. Simple as that, tough luck.

That said, try the other side of the table every once in a while. After you're done pulling your hair out every time you face Soontir, Carnor, Inquisitor or Palp Defenders, you will feel how limited and costly your regen is, compared to the ships which don't need it, because they simply don't take damage to begin with. If you learn how to play a regen ship well in the process, you'll already know how to perfectly counter it.

That you should focus fire down the ship with regen, or shoot at another target?

Well it CAN be a huge deal, if you get outplayed and are forced to inefficiently split your fire or let the regen get away and come back with full shields (if theres a possibility of this occuring and you have another target; shoot the other target!)

Otherwise, it is roughly equivalent to the tie/x7 (1 damage canceled independent of action and requiring specific manuevers) only it costs a lot of points

**** off, Regen is the only thing the X-Wing has going for it and you want to nerf it even though it hasn't been meta-dominant in over a year.

imo, the x-wing does not have regen either

well, Poe does and that's about it (Red Ace? but you're not using Red Ace over Poe, so you're only using him if you also have Poe)

regen by itself simply isn't powerful enough to carry a ship. It's when you start stacking it with other capabilities, especially guaranteed damage mitigation, that it starts getting powerful enough to contest other guaranteed defenses stacked upon guaranteed defenses (hello palp + aces/x7s)

I think that is a solid change idea to regen. Having some sort of cap on R2D2 and R5P9 would be nice. GONK sucks to deal with too, so maybe a cap isnt a bad idea.

Just consider that even in the Star Wars realisms, a ship does not hold unlimited energy and fuel to be able to constantly transfer it into shields.

Maybe a flat cap for each upgrade is a good idea. 5 isnt a bad idea!

so long as there's also a cap to how much a ship can evade

a pilot doesn't hold unlimited stamina and even the greatest of us crack under enough pressure, and that's before we consider the ship getting beat up enough to start responding poorly to the pilot's input

but **** like this is why gameplay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fluff

adding limitations such as these is just unnecessary complexity, unless you just go whole hog and adopt Armada's system of defense tokens (which is awesome)

so long as there's also a cap to how much a ship can evade

a pilot doesn't hold unlimited stamina and even the greatest of us crack under enough pressure, and that's before we consider the ship getting beat up enough to start responding poorly to the pilot's input

but **** like this is why gameplay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fluff

adding limitations such as these is just unnecessary complexity, unless you just go whole hog and adopt Armada's system of defense tokens (which is awesome)

The "number of charge" mechanic already exists in the game, though, so that piece of complexity is arealdy there. Evades are completely different in that the evade token only does any good if you are getting shot that round.

so long as there's also a cap to how much a ship can evade

a pilot doesn't hold unlimited stamina and even the greatest of us crack under enough pressure, and that's before we consider the ship getting beat up enough to start responding poorly to the pilot's input

but **** like this is why gameplay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fluff

adding limitations such as these is just unnecessary complexity, unless you just go whole hog and adopt Armada's system of defense tokens (which is awesome)

The "number of charge" mechanic already exists in the game, though, so that piece of complexity is arealdy there. Evades are completely different in that the evade token only does any good if you are getting shot that round.

no "number of charge" mechanic exists in the game

all that exists is building tokens on rey/crow/gonk, cards which are specifically costed in order to work with said mechanic and which have no upper limit

even comm relay, which only allows 1 evade token, can be refilled indefinitely

[oldmanvoice] Back in my day we built lists or made strategies to counter the things we hated, instead of posting up nerf threads every 10 minutes. [/oldmanvoice]

Seriously; TIE/Ds, Stresshogs, Ordnance, Wampa, Dengar. There's plenty of things that can give regen ships a hard time. A block and/or focus fire also works.

[oldmanvoice] Back in my day we built lists or made strategies to counter the things we hated, instead of posting up nerf threads every 10 minutes. [/oldmanvoice]

Seriously; TIE/Ds, Stresshogs, Ordnance, Wampa, Dengar. There's plenty of things that can give regen ships a hard time. A block and/or focus fire also works.

Kylo ren's a-coming for your regen

In my opinion, regen is just fine as is. Most regen ships can't evade, and they have low agility. R5-P9 requires a focus token to be present at the end of the round. R2-D2 limits to green maneuvers only. Chewbacca is use once and discard. Crew R2 threatens to crit you every time he's used.

All that regen does is give rebels a chance to survive no better than the evade plus autothrusters, while still forcing rebel players to play differently than Imperials. There is no limit to the number of evades one can use during a game, and aytothrusters don't just fall off, nor does x7 drop off the Defenders. With the exception of one IG (or anyone who can equip reinforced deflectors), Scum mostly uses the same survival tactic as the Empire.

Bottom line, I don't think regen is a problem in any way. Just keep up with your opponent, and do what's already been noted- either focus down the regenning ship, or eliminate other targets. Either way, focused fire is a good counter to regen lists.

I think that is a solid change idea to regen. Having some sort of cap on R2D2 and R5P9 would be nice. GONK sucks to deal with too, so maybe a cap isnt a bad idea.

Just consider that even in the Star Wars realisms, a ship does not hold unlimited energy and fuel to be able to constantly transfer it into shields.

Maybe a flat cap for each upgrade is a good idea. 5 isnt a bad idea!

Another thing to keep track of? How? Seems like a bad idea as everyone else stated eloquently.

While I don't know what the ratio is of casual players/buyers vs tournament players/buyers, I do know that casual players do exist, even if we live in the background quietly playing X-wing, one fun game at a time. Every time that there is a "nerf" (where on earth did that term come from anyways?) it inevitably effects the casual players as well.

When the TIE Phantom was changed, however justified the change was for good or for bad, it took away some of the fun that it was to fly the Phantom. When Deadeye was removed from every single large ship in X-wing creation, it destroyed one of my favourite combo's (that I came up with on my own - tinkering away on Fab's Squadron Builder, outside of the "tournament world") of using Dengar without the Punishing One Title, but using Deadeye, R4 Agromech, and two torpedoes with a Recon Specialist, and because I only own one copy of a JumpMaster 5000, I never would have thought of what ended up happening in the "tournament world" and so, more fun was stolen from me and my boy. In fact on the last change, I was loath to conform to the change, but I submitted to FFG and the community at large, being that I want to respect authority and the laws laid down.

And now this...only to destroy my boy's great fun in stumping his old man with regenerating some of his shields to hold on and best me in combat. Why? Why complain and find fault in so many great ships and upgrades. Was I thrilled about being bested by my boy in him using TLT's? No, but I learned - through asking the community for help - how to deal with it. Scum & Villainy is my favourite faction followed by the Imperials, putting the Rebels in last place (for me). However, please don't steal more fun from this game, please try something else if this game bother's you this much. Rather than spoil it for all of us, please try to be constructive or just accept the game as it has been designed, or find something else that suits your play style. I love this game, but it does make it challenging when some of my joy gets stolen because of large complaints as opposed to huge praise for FFG making such a fantastic game and working hard to trying to please us.

Are you really saying that now that we have had x10 Waves released, x4 Ace packs, x4 Epic Ships, x2 core packs, over four years of X-wing Miniatures, with x6 World Championships, countless FAQ updates, countless forum topics, now you want it changed? Please reconsider what you have started and accept what most of us seem to be saying.

With the greatest of respect,

God bless and try to have fun with X-wing Miniatures .

[Edit: Added link to old forum]

Every time that there is a "nerf" (where on earth did that term come from anyways?) it inevitably effects the casual players as well.

So Nerf makes foam weapons that are less-than-lethal don't hurt people for totally mature adults children to have cubical wars fight with. When a game developer goes back and changes something to make it weaker, or less harmful, they are "Nerf'ing" it.

Its been in use for a long, long time; was popularized, I would guess, in MMO's. I started using it in '99 and EverQuest.