I don't know if it's the release of the Liberty with its less-than-clear naming convention, Rebels going to the dark side and getting confused about the difference between the ISD1 and ISD2, or just a string of bad luck on my part; but over the last few weeks I have had FOUR different games, against four different opponents, two on Vassal and two IRL, in which my opponent has shown the wrong variant of either an ISD or a Liberty until the round when it goes to shoot at me.

In Vassal: Both times the opponent grabbed the wrong card. IRL: Both times the opponent had the right ship card showing, but the wrong ship token. In all cases, I allowed the opponent to retcon the list, being friendly games... But I should not have been asked to do so, and I'm about done being forgiving on this.

It may seem like a minor difference to you, but I promise you that if I'm dropping an MC30 where it's going to take a hit from the front arc of your Liberty, I've done the math on its chances of survival, and yes, that one red die difference can very easily be the difference in my approach to addressing your entire fleet. Even more so the ISD, where I'll drop an MC30 in medium range of an ISD1 all day, but a 2 is pretty likely to one-shot it. That's a difference of five dice vs eight!

Please, for the love of god, check your ****, or at least be man enough not to ask your opponent to forgive your lack of attention to detail.

/rant

I see this happen sometimes even at tournaments. Is there an Organized Play policy on how to handle an issue like this that arises part way through a game?

Specifically, no...

However, remember with most events, you must have a Sheet with your Fleet designated on it, and this may apply (underline emphasis mine):


If a leader discovers a player’s fleet list missing appropriate information, he or she should find that player immediately and update the fleet list based on the cards the player is using. If this would result in a significant and potentially advantageous change, the leader should consider investigating for possible cheating.

And this is why I do not play in tourneys........................too much hassle dealing with unknown players, arguing over wether this card is legit, or some store judge telling me

you cannot use that mat, or your dice are wrong whatever. To me the tourneys are not fun too much stress over wether you have accurately calculated 1/3 of your fleet points to the 5th decimal point. I have played tournaments using historical hex boards etc, and we never have the issues that these types of games produce. I have even played in an international Advanced Squad Leader tournament with players from all over the world. During these events people use older counters, some have to borrow some whatever. And not once have I ever been kicked out of an ASL tournament because my counters are not pristine, or my map boards are a little older. We just adapt and carry on playing. And if someone forgot a counter during setup well we just let the player put it on the board. It is called being a good sportsman, and good companies that design and manufacture the scenario packs do not sit there demanding that the players use their maps, or their dice. I like it because the players design their own scenarios , and playtest them during tourneys. So while Armada , X-wing are great games, the tourney aspect ruins it for me. TO MANY **** RULES and you have not even started to play the game. If you are stressed out before you have even started because you do not have a big bank account and have tried to get the basic set and a few extras just to play. ,only to find out that your stuff is not legal because it is from a year or two ago and you can not play because the rules stop you from sharing a measuring tool etc, or this tournament you can only use wave 3-5 or this card series then why waste your time. I have had more fun playing those same games with good friends who like to mix things up, are not afraid of an actual scenario where one side has less points than the other but is in a good position.That is the best time to have fun. Tpurneys are stress magnets in a crowded room full of sweating bodies , and insane amounts of noise.

Ever since I started storing my ships disasembled I havn't had an issue with the wrong side showing, but previous to that, it was fairly common. I'd usually notice it early on, but its very easy to overlook, just like having squadrons or shield dials not reset after a game. I for one always look at my opponent's ship cards, not the cardboard, so I've never had an issue IRL. On vassal it would be a different matter, and could significantly alter play since that is all you have to go by unless fleet lists were posted elsewhere.

As for you "allowing the retcon of the list" I feel that you are taking to much credit for your "generosity". I can understand your case for it on vassal, but in any tournament (vassal or IRL) you should have seen your opponents list in the first place and there shouldn't be an issue. You would have no grounds to try and force them to use whatever is currently showing, just as you couldn't force their ship to stay at 0 shields if they forgot to reset them in-between games. All you would look like by trying is an *******.

In other news, Grats on the baby!

And this is why I do not play in tourneys........................too much hassle dealing with unknown players, arguing over wether this card is legit, or some store judge telling me

you cannot use that mat, or your dice are wrong whatever. To me the tourneys are not fun too much stress over wether you have accurately calculated 1/3 of your fleet points to the 5th decimal point. I have played tournaments using historical hex boards etc, and we never have the issues that these types of games produce. I have even played in an international Advanced Squad Leader tournament with players from all over the world. During these events people use older counters, some have to borrow some whatever. And not once have I ever been kicked out of an ASL tournament because my counters are not pristine, or my map boards are a little older. We just adapt and carry on playing. And if someone forgot a counter during setup well we just let the player put it on the board. It is called being a good sportsman, and good companies that design and manufacture the scenario packs do not sit there demanding that the players use their maps, or their dice. I like it because the players design their own scenarios , and playtest them during tourneys. So while Armada , X-wing are great games, the tourney aspect ruins it for me. TO MANY **** RULES and you have not even started to play the game. If you are stressed out before you have even started because you do not have a big bank account and have tried to get the basic set and a few extras just to play. ,only to find out that your stuff is not legal because it is from a year or two ago and you can not play because the rules stop you from sharing a measuring tool etc, or this tournament you can only use wave 3-5 or this card series then why waste your time. I have had more fun playing those same games with good friends who like to mix things up, are not afraid of an actual scenario where one side has less points than the other but is in a good position.That is the best time to have fun. Tpurneys are stress magnets in a crowded room full of sweating bodies , and insane amounts of noise.

This was a hell of a rant.

But also totally unnecessary, and off the point.

I'm sorry man. As a fellow Elder gamer, and someone who's been around those blocks many time....... You're unfortunately ranting not only to the wrong crowd, but on the wrong subjects... I hate to say it, but even I see it as a Grandpa-rant, and I'm infamous for those, myself...

...

What is Ard asking for?

Basic Respect. That is all.

Respect for your opponent, and indeed, respect for your own materials.

...

No-one really gives a crap about 3rd party range rulers, but you know, this day and age, the rules have to be there anyway.

Granted, you call it being a Good Sportsman. You know what, I agree somewhat... But that doesn't stop the fact that respect should be two ways...

I don't care if you show up with ratty stuff (which, again, irrelevant to the point here)...

What Ard is talking about, in ASL terms... Let's see..... Playing Russians but using German Counters.

You know what, its possible - and you can do it. But you shouldn't do it, and you shouldn't expect your opponent to let it slide and just be cool with it... I mean, if they are, then freaking awesome....

And as you said - if you have missing pieces, you ask around and borrow it, right? because that's just what you do?

You know what? THAT IS A RULE AND A SUGGESTED GUIDELINE IN ARMADA TOURNAMENTS... You don't have to RELY on the GENEROSTITY of someone to just give you the benefit, its mandated...

But come on, people.

Have a measure of Respect.

For your Opponent.

For the rules.

And for Hell's sake. For yourself. because you do yourself a disservice by rushing. Calm down, collect yourself.

..

Enjoy the day.

A lot of us don't even get those.

And this is why I do not play in tourneys........................too much hassle dealing with unknown players, arguing over wether this card is legit, or some store judge telling me

you cannot use that mat, or your dice are wrong whatever. To me the tourneys are not fun too much stress over wether you have accurately calculated 1/3 of your fleet points to the 5th decimal point. I have played tournaments using historical hex boards etc, and we never have the issues that these types of games produce. I have even played in an international Advanced Squad Leader tournament with players from all over the world. During these events people use older counters, some have to borrow some whatever. And not once have I ever been kicked out of an ASL tournament because my counters are not pristine, or my map boards are a little older. We just adapt and carry on playing. And if someone forgot a counter during setup well we just let the player put it on the board. It is called being a good sportsman, and good companies that design and manufacture the scenario packs do not sit there demanding that the players use their maps, or their dice. I like it because the players design their own scenarios , and playtest them during tourneys. So while Armada , X-wing are great games, the tourney aspect ruins it for me. TO MANY **** RULES and you have not even started to play the game. If you are stressed out before you have even started because you do not have a big bank account and have tried to get the basic set and a few extras just to play. ,only to find out that your stuff is not legal because it is from a year or two ago and you can not play because the rules stop you from sharing a measuring tool etc, or this tournament you can only use wave 3-5 or this card series then why waste your time. I have had more fun playing those same games with good friends who like to mix things up, are not afraid of an actual scenario where one side has less points than the other but is in a good position.That is the best time to have fun. Tpurneys are stress magnets in a crowded room full of sweating bodies , and insane amounts of noise.

It is good that you realize that the tournament scene isn't for you. It certainly seems that way.

I will disagree with you in that I have the opposite experience with Armada. The Tourney scene is what keeps it the most interesting for me. (Until CC comes out.) There may be "that guy" that is not having fun, but mostly there is competition, laughter and fun.

I'm sorry you do not feel that way.

And this is why I do not play in tourneys........................too much hassle dealing with unknown players, arguing over wether this card is legit, or some store judge telling me

you cannot use that mat, or your dice are wrong whatever. To me the tourneys are not fun too much stress over wether you have accurately calculated 1/3 of your fleet points to the 5th decimal point. I have played tournaments using historical hex boards etc, and we never have the issues that these types of games produce. I have even played in an international Advanced Squad Leader tournament with players from all over the world. During these events people use older counters, some have to borrow some whatever. And not once have I ever been kicked out of an ASL tournament because my counters are not pristine, or my map boards are a little older. We just adapt and carry on playing. And if someone forgot a counter during setup well we just let the player put it on the board. It is called being a good sportsman, and good companies that design and manufacture the scenario packs do not sit there demanding that the players use their maps, or their dice. I like it because the players design their own scenarios , and playtest them during tourneys. So while Armada , X-wing are great games, the tourney aspect ruins it for me. TO MANY **** RULES and you have not even started to play the game. If you are stressed out before you have even started because you do not have a big bank account and have tried to get the basic set and a few extras just to play. ,only to find out that your stuff is not legal because it is from a year or two ago and you can not play because the rules stop you from sharing a measuring tool etc, or this tournament you can only use wave 3-5 or this card series then why waste your time. I have had more fun playing those same games with good friends who like to mix things up, are not afraid of an actual scenario where one side has less points than the other but is in a good position.That is the best time to have fun. Tpurneys are stress magnets in a crowded room full of sweating bodies , and insane amounts of noise.

I'm pretty sure you've misunderstood my point. I object to people changing one unit into another mid-game. This has nothing to do with legality of dice or mats or whatever, it has to do with obeying the most fundamental rules of the game that we've agreed to play. It's like objecting to my opponent moving a knight like a bishop.

This has nothing to do with tournament vs custom scenarios--it's about not changing rules mid-game.

I love how quickly this went from "seriously dudes, it's kind of a jerk move to switch ships on your opponent mid-game in such a way that your mistake can't be satisfactorily unwound to anyone's satisfaction so please don't do that" to "YAH DURN KIDS EXPECTING ME TO PLAY BY THE RULES RUIN ALL MAH FUNS."

Did this really need to be a rant? This is a great community, I'm told, and no one is trying to game an advantage by mixing up their components. Mistakes happen sometimes, yes, and they are unfortunate, yes. Stuff happens, roll with the flow, and if you don't want to let them change their components mid-game because of your pre-laid plans then just be assertive and tell them they cannot (or, even, request a concession). Otherwise, just be understanding and forgiving and let them fix it. Either response is at your discretion. But I don't see a need to whine about it and act like it's a big community problem. I've literally never encountered this in two regionals, a nationals, five season kits, and a Massing at Sullest.

I'll add a perspective on community building:

In a tournament, this is one of those details you'd expect people to have down and to get correct. That's the respect and courtesy mentioned above in multiple posts.

In casual play, many players have less attention to detail than some of the more serious tournament players. If we're going to build successful armada communities, they depend upon our politeness to continue coming out. And after all, in 130 or so games, I've probably had the wrong cards out in five of them. And I'm a detail person, so I figure if I can miss something like this, it is going to happen to all of us eventually. I know I'd want my opponent to politely correct the game state, because it does matter. It is a lot easier to look at the cardboard than it is to try to gauge their unit cards at the other side of the table. The politeness matters a great deal in getting newer players (and sometimes older, but habitually careless ones) into the game.

I've had this happen in casual games, both on Vassal and IRL.

Ship cards...missing upgrades...wrong upgrades...etc.

I've always taken it like a champ. Had a cup of tea and moved on.

Then again I think there was only one time when it really mattered.

And I've yet to experience it during a tournament.

Did this really need to be a rant? This is a great community, I'm told, and no one is trying to game an advantage by mixing up their components. Mistakes happen sometimes, yes, and they are unfortunate, yes. Stuff happens, roll with the flow, and if you don't want to let them change their components mid-game because of your pre-laid plans then just be assertive and tell them they cannot (or, even, request a concession). Otherwise, just be understanding and forgiving and let them fix it. Either response is at your discretion. But I don't see a need to whine about it and act like it's a big community problem. I've literally never encountered this in two regionals, a nationals, five season kits, and a Massing at Sullest.

In a friendly game, hopefully no one is trying to take advantage with misinformation, but mistakes like this do happen. I have seen games with the wrong ship template out. This is easy to fix when you can look at their list and just flip it, but if you maneuver something and its going to take more dice, it kinda sucks. I've also seen the wrong ship card out, and that can be a huge deal because during casual games, I look at the cards. If you have an ISD II template, but the ISD I card, that makes a huge difference in how I deploy and attack. And just swapping the card is not going to resolve the issue once the game has started.

If this happened in a tournament, I don't think I'd allow a swap to be made. Let them learn the hard way so they never forget their mistake.

I don't know if it's the release of the Liberty with its less-than-clear naming convention, Rebels going to the dark side and getting confused about the difference between the ISD1 and ISD2, or just a string of bad luck on my part; but over the last few weeks I have had FOUR different games, against four different opponents, two on Vassal and two IRL, in which my opponent has shown the wrong variant of either an ISD or a Liberty until the round when it goes to shoot at me.

In Vassal: Both times the opponent grabbed the wrong card. IRL: Both times the opponent had the right ship card showing, but the wrong ship token. In all cases, I allowed the opponent to retcon the list, being friendly games... But I should not have been asked to do so, and I'm about done being forgiving on this.

It may seem like a minor difference to you, but I promise you that if I'm dropping an MC30 where it's going to take a hit from the front arc of your Liberty, I've done the math on its chances of survival, and yes, that one red die difference can very easily be the difference in my approach to addressing your entire fleet. Even more so the ISD, where I'll drop an MC30 in medium range of an ISD1 all day, but a 2 is pretty likely to one-shot it. That's a difference of five dice vs eight!

Please, for the love of god, check your ****, or at least be man enough not to ask your opponent to forgive your lack of attention to detail.

/rant

Wait, you mean you don't double check everything as your opponent introduces their list at the start of every game when you remember that you need to reset your fighter HPs, and all of your shield dials?

I don't know if it's the release of the Liberty with its less-than-clear naming convention, Rebels going to the dark side and getting confused about the difference between the ISD1 and ISD2, or just a string of bad luck on my part; but over the last few weeks I have had FOUR different games, against four different opponents, two on Vassal and two IRL, in which my opponent has shown the wrong variant of either an ISD or a Liberty until the round when it goes to shoot at me.

In Vassal: Both times the opponent grabbed the wrong card. IRL: Both times the opponent had the right ship card showing, but the wrong ship token. In all cases, I allowed the opponent to retcon the list, being friendly games... But I should not have been asked to do so, and I'm about done being forgiving on this.

It may seem like a minor difference to you, but I promise you that if I'm dropping an MC30 where it's going to take a hit from the front arc of your Liberty, I've done the math on its chances of survival, and yes, that one red die difference can very easily be the difference in my approach to addressing your entire fleet. Even more so the ISD, where I'll drop an MC30 in medium range of an ISD1 all day, but a 2 is pretty likely to one-shot it. That's a difference of five dice vs eight!

Please, for the love of god, check your ****, or at least be man enough not to ask your opponent to forgive your lack of attention to detail.

/rant

Wait, you mean you don't double check everything as your opponent introduces their list at the start of every game when you remember that you need to reset your fighter HPs, and all of your shield dials?

Sure, he does - but he's busy enough resetting fighter HPs and shield dials, that he shouldn't have to do the same FOR HIS OPPONENT... They should be doing it, and not, is patently disrespectful and/or lazy.

I have not encountered this, but what I have found early on in Vassal is someone always loading the perfect anti-my-fleet list, remarkably, just a few moments after I have mine up and ready. I don't play on it anymore because of it.

I have not encountered this, but what I have found early on in Vassal is someone always loading the perfect anti-my-fleet list, remarkably, just a few moments after I have mine up and ready. I don't play on it anymore because of it.

I feel like this would be beneficial. I would appreciate the "perfect anti-my-fleet" practice way more than someone loading up a list I know I can reliably beat.

Wait, you mean you don't double check everything as your opponent introduces their list at the start of every game when you remember that you need to reset your fighter HPs, and all of your shield dials?

Of course I look at his list, but why should I double check everything in his setup for him? What kind of respect for your opponent is that, to go behind him and check everything out to make sure he isn't cheating or making cheaty mistakes?

When putting out fleets it is common practice to put the ship on top of the corresponding ship card before deployment. The ISD base covers the entire ship card. If I see an ISD1 across the table, and upgrades appropriate to an ISD1, I don't worry about whether the card under there is an ISD1--it's a pretty safe assumption that it is. Just like I don't watch my opponents to make sure they're not changing bottom dials, I don't add up their fleet points, and I don't check their dice for weighting.

Of course this all applies to casual games. I'm more rigorous in tournaments. I bring my saltwater bath with me and spin each die 100 times before the game starts, just to be safe.

Only 100? Hardly enough to establish statistical significance. You should try 1000. Or maybe a certification from a 3rd party lab to ensure fairness.

I have not encountered this, but what I have found early on in Vassal is someone always loading the perfect anti-my-fleet list, remarkably, just a few moments after I have mine up and ready. I don't play on it anymore because of it.

I feel like this would be beneficial. I would appreciate the "perfect anti-my-fleet" practice way more than someone loading up a list I know I can reliably beat.

I'd prefer we play just the way it would be in a tournie, unless specifically agreed upon that I was looking for the challenge of practice against a hard-counter to my fleet.

At Chicago, 1st round I realized my MC80 had the wrong side up. I pointed it out to my opponent and switched it quick between activations. He was cool with that.

3rd round, I asked my opponent if he really brought a combat Refit Rebel flotilla. He had put the wrong side up on his ship. He was floored that neither he nor his two opponents noticed the difference.

Both cases were "fly casual" attitudes and it made the day smoother.

And frankly, I usually walk around to my opponent's side before game and look at his/her fleet by the cards. The cardboard on table is only relevant to me for the firing arcs.

And frankly, I usually walk around to my opponent's side before game and look at his/her fleet by the cards. The cardboard on table is only relevant to me for the firing arcs.

This is exactly why I've never had an issue even with this happening multiple times to me or an opponent! On vassal it would be different, or if they actually had the wrong card out....

I get that it can be annoying, especially if it's proven t be 'a thing'. I also understand the competitiveness aspect of tournaments, especially the Regionals.

At the same time, there are degrees by which you can take mistakes as a matter of course. I wonder if there are ways in which you can signal the degree to which you're focusing as closely on things as Ard does.

Timely bump

I really don't see the problem. the ship is the one on the list. Even if it's a tournament it shouldn't matter. unless the person has been throwing the wrong dice. I have no clue why this angers you so much.