I'm going to preface the following discussion with these words: This is not a debate over what is canon or not, but discussion on how the following points could effect how the Force is used or otherwise portrayed within the Tabletop RPG. That being said...

I have always found it interesting how the Jedi perceive themselves within the Star Wars Universe as the "defenders of the Republic and the innocent". And yet, when it really mattered, the Jedi were wholly content with just sitting on their hands and knees as the Mandalorians pillaged their way to Coruscant even going so far as to seemingly refuse to allow the Republic to fight back on its own, even without the Jedi. And yet when their apathy and indifference to the Republic's plight was questioned, Revan and Malek were cast out and declared Sith for doing the very thing the Jedi consider their role: defending the innocent and the Republic.

(Interesting side note: If absolute obedience to the Council was their highest mandate, then technically speaking Obi-wan should have been cast out for threatening Yoda to go against the council's refusal to train Anakin, but they didn't).

At this point I believe (prior to TOR's retconning of Revan's motives) Revan realized a fundamental truth, that the Jedi only acted when it served their own interests and not those of the billions of people they were sworn to protect. Thus he set out both to destroy the Sith and free the Republic from the apathetic rule of the Jedi. This goal is further backed by the fact that even Master Yoda and the council were once again openly against the Republic forming an army to defend itself against the military and economic assault of the Separatists, even after discovering Sith involvement and even more so after the Separatists had already begun their attacks. Even then the Jedi clung to their self-indulgent image of themselves while openly refusing (until they were literally forced) to defend the Republic.

Which brings me now to another point about the Jedi: their portrayal of users of the Dark Side. The Jedi wont hesitate a second to almost brag how all Sith are hate-ravaged boogymen that want to devour your children, while they are serene and "one with the Force". And yes, while there are more than enough examples to back up this stereotype, the very aspect of stereotyping seems beneath the Jedi. If you go solely on how they believe themselves to be. Furthermore they clearly state that force powers are either inherently good or evil, and how such power is used has nothing to do with anything. If this were true, there would be no Grey Jedi. It would be an absolute impossibility. Yet you have individuals like Revan and Starkiller who were masters of both the light and the dark side. Heck, even the Bendu would not exist because it would either have to be good, or evil but could not be both.

Take for example the Jedi's Force Pull. There is absolutely no way that power could be evil right? I mean, it's not like someone could use it to pull a person off a balcony to kill him/her and make it look like a suicide in the process. Just like there is no way someone could use Force Lightning to start a broken down speeder for some poor sod stuck out in the Dune Sea.

And now we get to the individual who just throws all the Jedi's doctrines out the window: Lana Beniko, a character from The Old Republic MMO. During your first few interactions with the character, she comes off as well mannered and polite. True she can be curt and calculating but never aggressive, callous, or conniving. Yet despite her bio even openly stating that many mistake her for a Jedi, she is, in fact, an extremely talented Sith Lord. What makes her even more intriguing when analyzing her from the aspect of how the Jedi love to portray all Dark Side practitioners, is the fact that on several occasions states "May the Force be with you." or "May the Force serve you well." Statements that are certainly more appropriate for a Jedi than a Sith.

Furthermore, after forming a shaky truce with the Republic, Lana heads an operation that sees a Republic special agent purposely captured (without his knowledge) knowing that he would be capable of gathering intel from the inside. The event causes seemingly irreparable damage to their partnership. Yet while a Sith shouldn't care one bit about "sacrificing a pawn" or somesuch, she takes his distrust and anger towards her extremely personally. Confiding in you, the player, she admits that while it made sound strategic sense, she not only regrets using the Republic agent (an enemy agent) as a pawn and is conflicted in her wish to openly, and sincerely, apologize to him for her breach of his trust. Yet at the same time, she realizes that he is, ultimately, and enemy and does not want to show him weakness (remorse or otherwise the existence of a conscience). And yet despite a rather amiable nature and a vast knowledge of the Force she can fight and hurl Dark Side powers like the best of them. Yet she shows none of the blood-craving malice (Darth Maul) or the physical manifestations (such as Darth Sidious) that the Jedi state is inherent in being a user of the Dark Side.

Thus, there are only two possibilities:

1) She is somehow more powerful than even Sidious, which I don't believe for one second. The only evidence of this would be the fact that she shows none of the physical corruption (outside of her eyes) while most (if not all) other Sith Lords do one way or another. Even so, the idea is too absurd to take seriously in any respect.

OR

2) She is actually a Grey Jedi in the same vein as Revan or Starkiller and only happens to be serving the Empire (not that the Jedi would have accepted her anyways).

The second choice has one other interesting implication. If Lana Beniko is actually a Grey Jedi, then that would mean that the title of "Sith" is simply a label the Jedi place on someone who does not agree with their world view or doctrine much in the same manner as the Pilgrims would put a scarlet letter on an adulterous woman to disgrace and shame her in the eyes of the world. This would also mean that the Force is not inherantly good or evil (this idea backed up by the existence of the Grey Jedi), but it is all in how each individual chooses to use those powers.

Thus the question is: If someone can be a practitioner of the Dark Side and yet not be corrupt, treacherous, psychotically violent, and anger-driven, what would that mean for the universe and force practitioners? How would it effect the rules on the usage of Force Powers within the campaign, and how could such a character be used within a campaign to mix things up a bit?

This all sounds very KoTOR II: it was one of the first works to deconstruct Star Wars and that was one of the things that was so good about it.

The key difference between Sith and Jedi is the source of their power: Jedi gain power through control and suppression of emotion whereas Sith gain power by channeling it. The Light Side is usually a more stable power than the dark but that light is also blinding: light side practioners can easily appear cold and uncaring when they become so blinded by the bigger picture that they can't see the details.

Dark side power is gained by channeling emotions but those emotions become so powerful that dark side users can lose control of them. It's a wild and destructive power but I don't know if it's inherently evil. The Sith are but that's because of their dogma rather than their power.

One can definitely be a dark side user without being corrupt, treacherous and violent for the fun of it but they will have to cope with the dark side amplifying the emotions that fuel it: like Vader, Palpatine, Maul, Malak, Kylo Ren and the rest they'll occasionally lose control. This doesn't pose a problem for evil characters but a character with higher moral standards may not like how they act in the moments where they lose their grip on the reins.

This all sounds very KoTOR II: it was one of the first works to deconstruct Star Wars and that was one of the things that was so good about it.

This sounds very grey, indeed KoTOR 2 is my favorite “Star Wars” game because of it.

I would like to first point out that Force Pull is technically considered a universal force power, one that can be channeled either through the light or dark (if such a division truly exists). That’s just technical, I’m a bit of a stickler for the details .

The Jedi have always seemed to ones to take in every aspect of the situation before they act, which has shown very useful in the past as well as detrimental- The Jedi knew something was amiss about the Mandalorian Wars and attempted to shuffle through until they had enough information to act. Had they all waited they would probably have found the dark side working alongside the Mandalorians and would have adapted and acted accordingly. However, this did in fact leave room for even more bloodshed as we have heard from Yoda’s own lips not to weep for the dead as they become a part of the Force.

In other words to them they had all the time in the world to discern the cause of the conflict, as the deaths of innocents were but a vapor in the grand scheme of things. I agree with Blue here, the Jedi are very focused toward the big picture and the balance of the Force (though to them “balance” seems to be the utter destruction of the Dark Side l:/ ) and have taken their role as defender with differing degrees over the course of galactic history.

The light and the dark in my opinion are just two differing sides of the same coin. It all depends on the user on if it is truly malevolent or benevolent. It is completely possible for a force sensitive to channel their emotions in battle for the defense of others. Heck, in my opinion I believe positive emotions can also fuel the Dark Side, passion is not just hatred, rage, and anger it is also love and overall zeal.

The light can be used for evil in my opinion just as much as the dark. I am actually formulating a character to act as a major antagonist for an up and coming campaign based on that principle: someone who has taken the Jedi Code far too far, who seeks peace and tranquility beyond all else at the expense of all else (I might actually post the concept later for feedback and discussion now that I've mentioned it.). Extremism on either side seems to usually lead to ruin.

With that, one could use the Dark Side such as her in a way that does not corrupt so long as she is careful to keep control of her emotions and not the other way around, just as it is possible for a light side user to strip their identity completely and seek utter unity and piece no matter how morally bankrupt it may seem if they lose touch with their humanity.

The Sith are just an organization after all, not the entirety of the Dark Side.

As for mechanics, I usually allot Conflict based on giving into emotion rather that expressing that emotion through the force. If someone wants to play a good dark side user I usually let them just use dark pips and cut them off from the Heal ability rather than wait until they have done enough dishonorable deeds.

Actions and consequences can certainly be “good” or “evil”. As can intentions and even people.

But given the way the Jedi describe themselves, I don’t believe it’s possible to be a “Grey Jedi”. You can either be a Jedi or you can be Grey, but you can’t be both.

You can be a Grey Force user, sure. Maybe you follow many of the same high level principles, but where you differ with the Jedi is how you apply those principles.

Consider the Jal Shey, the Baran Do Sages, and the Dagoyan Masters. Or most any of the other organizations listed at http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Force-based_organizations

You could even be a Grey former Jedi.

And there are those who were light-side Force users who channeled strong emotions — Mace Windu being the classic example.

I think you have to ask yourself just what is a Jedi? What are the guiding principles? How are those applied?

What time period are we talking about, and what is the context of these answers?

How flexible/absolute are these answers?

My answers for these questions with regards to the Jedi order at one point in time in the Star Wars Universe would be different than my answers for the Jedi order at a different point.

My answers would probably also be different from your answers.

But I think these are key questions we should ask ourselves as we try to decide where things fit in our personal versions of the SWU.

Look up the trope "Affably Evil"

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffablyEvil

While the teachings of the Jedi may hold that the Sith are evil, that doesn't mean that all Sith of the "cackling maniac" brand of evil. Darth Sidious is probably one of the most vile and sadistic people in media, but he had little problem with maintaining the persona of Senator/Chancellor Palpatine, the kindly and well-meaning politician that could be supportive. But in the end, he's still a Sith Lord, one that is very charismatic and very skilled at using social manipulation to achieve his aims rather than relying upon sheer brute force.

Kreia's views of the Force in KOTOR2 were very heavily biased, with her every move and word being done with the express intent to manipulate you to a specific end; problem was you wound up going off the rails from what she intended, forcing her to resort to her Darth Traya persona in order to achieve her goal of "killing" the Force.

BioWare as a design company seems to generally be obsessed with "shades of grey" in terms of their more recent games' storylines, and SWTOR is no exception, with the Dragon Age series being a prime example of their mindset.

I agree with bradknowles that the concept of a "Gray Jedi" is more of a fallacy than anything, as Star Wars is a setting where the ends do not justify the means; an evil act is still an evil act even if done for the "greater good."

Qui-Gon was only considered a "Gray Jedi" due to his adhering more to the spirit of the Jedi Code where most Jedi of that era focused too much on the letter of the Code, making him something of a maverick (which in hindsight was something the Council seriously needed) though he still held to the core tenets of the Jedi Order, and in this system he'd very likely be a Light Side Paragon, possibly with a better Morality score than most of the Jedi Council.

Mace Windu, while making very tightly controlled use of his darker emotions in combat, was still a Jedi and held to their tenets and beliefs, and didn't see his creation/use of Vaapad as an entirely good thing, but instead as compensating for a personal weakness of his. But he's not a "Gray Jedi," just a Jedi (Master!) that is vulnerable to an aspect of the dark side and yet took steps to address that vulnerability, eventually turning it into an asset that was handled with caution and care much like how a responsible gun owner treats any firearm in their possession.

I agree with Blue here, the Jedi are very focused toward the big picture and the balance of the Force (though to them “balance” seems to be the utter destruction of the Dark Side l:/ ) and have taken their role as defender with differing degrees over the course of galactic history.

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Just to throw in my two cents on the "balance" thing. I view Force Balance not as an eastern Taoist model but more of a "balanced diet." In this case a diet is not balance when you eat equal part nutrients and poison, it is balanced when you have all the parts you need working right. In this metaphor the dark side is someone putting arsenic in the body of the Galaxy, not necessarily fatal, but definitely not good.

In an extension using the force is a bit like a river, normally you flow with it and maybe paddle along a little faster or slower than the current or shift to the side for a small effect (using the force) but you don't disrupt the overall flow. The dark side is the person who sees the river and then dams it up or diverts it to their own desire messing it up for everything else in it.

To use another metaphor it is deciding to get something at a party by pulling on the carpet to move the table to you. You got the thing, but you probably wrecked a lot of other stuff in the process.

If it's one thing the Jedi had right, it was that the Darkside has no right to exist. The darkside traditionally is the pervertation of everything natural, a cancer that twists all forms of life that dabble in it's easy power. Further more anyone who believed differently in this universe is either a liar looking to mislead others or a person deceiving themselves, making their fall fully deserved. Or you get Anakin who was failed by the Jedi councal and had his fear exploited and did wrong knowingly in order to get the cure. Though it definately doesn't turn sith or force users into savages; it simply warps their perception of reality to see every person and every life form as an oppertunity, a tool to use and break to reach a ultimate objective. A complete loss of empathy.

Now emotion and compassion? Those are really the "grey" areas that most people refer to when they talk about powerful Jedi. Luke succeeded over the sith not because he was powerful or used both the light and darksides, as such a thing is truly impossible, but unlike every Jedi that had come before him he had not forsaken his compassion and believed in good, even when the person he appealed to didn't believe otherwise. Compassion especially is lacking in the order because they ignored all the signs of the darkside, they had no understanding of it's plan and in the end their lack of compassion and rigid adherence to suppression of said emotions were their downfall. They had become warmongers in the eyes of the public thanks to sidious's scheme, they attacked Genosis and war had spread across the galaxy without even attempting to understanding the true root cause to why there was a rebellion.

So yeah, I really don't believe that there is a fundamental balance in juggling both the Force (or lightside, for simplified analogies) and dark side. Drawing on hate only addicts one to it and relying on emotion without reason for an extended period is the cause. Just destroying the darkside is easier said then done as even in the absence of any sith, their ruins still carry signs of taint.

However I do believe that knowledge of the darkside isn't a bad thing. Revan was so special because he saw both ends of the line and became redeemed. That being said, I find that the games always had a slightly different interpretation again from most media and again the "grey Jedi" was a sith all the long. Very calm, but a very powerful wiz-sith that only saw what she wanted.

Once you’ve “fallen off the wagon” for the first time, you discover how very difficult it is for you to get back onto the wagon and stay there.

This is a huge problem for any kind of addict, either someone who is physically addicted to a substance, or someone who is emotionally addicted to it.

And IMO, the power of the Dark Side is the most psychologically addicting thing in the Universe.

One of the most addicting things about it is that you are lead to believe that you can control it. That you can use it to achieve whatever goals you have, and that the ends justify the means.

But in the meanwhile, you are being warped by being in proximity to that power, and your goals are being warped as well.

Malak clearly thought that way. And Revan used to. Did Revan really fully recover?

I find the concept of grey Jedi to be trite. It's an excuse to play with darkside powers without wanting to be labeled a darksider. But the setting itself makes it clear, the use of the darkside makes you a darksider. Sure you can use those darkside powers for good but you are ultimately doing evil in order to do good. You can play a lot with the idea on whether it is right or wrong to use evil to do good but in terms of darkside vs lightside your use of evil and darkside powers marks you as a darksider.

The problem with Lana is that A. she is kinda snowflakish but more importantly she isn't a 2-dimensional evil character. What most people tend to do (absurdly I might add) is portray darksiders (and evil to a lesser extent) as just unstable, psychotic evil. The go to for a lot of Sith for Star Wars is Chaotic Evil. It's sad. This leads us to thinking of any character that deviates from this norm of portrayal is being a grey Jedi, a grey Force user. The thing is, Lana gives herself to the darkside. She makes use of it's power. The fact that she isn't some kind of stock raving mad psychoitic killer speaks more to BioWare trying to add a bit of depth to the Sith than an indication that she is somehow in this grey zone.

Lana is no grey Jedi. She is a darksider and a Sith. None of that means though that she can't act to benefit the galaxy. Using evil to do good is still evil. The Force holds you to a higher standard. You can't grey Jedi your way out of that standard.

True love breeds hate. If you love something, you will hate what is trying to hurt it. Does that make love dark?

That's where the Bendu come into play. Hate is considered dark while love is considered light. I think that's why the Jedi avoid all emotions.

Bendu believe you can balance love and hate. Jedi believe, since love breeds hate, that you must avoid both. Sith love chaos(darkness) and consequently hate everything that brings about serenity.

You can love without hate. You can destroy without hate. A common everyday example is animal control people with truly abused dogs who are so far gone into aggression they cannot recover. Many love all animals but regretfully see the necessity of putting a rabid/feral/aggressive animal down.

A good example is the Dresden Files. You use dark magic and the odds of stopping are small, the results are always damaging in some way and while often sad the darker practitioners must be put down.

As someone much more familiar with Legends I ask; what do we really know about new canon TOR?

I think the Darth Bane trilogy is a fantastic study in the philosophy behind Jedi/Sith, Light/Dark.

And my impression is that Jedi in fact don't judge certain Powers as evil or good, they just know what is required to draw on and fuel those powers. And in the case of Darkside Powers it's anger/hate, pain, fear.

And that it's strong emotion that most easily generates those things. If you love nothing or are passionate about nothing or covet nothing then what is there to hate or be angry about or fear? It's all very zen, of course, but to split Light and Dark simply into Good and Evil is missing the point, I think.

I also don't think the emotions are necessarily dark themselves, they just tend to lead to dark.

When you are emotional are you sure you are thinking clearly?

Are you sure that is the Force's will and not your own?

The more emotional you are the more static there is between you and Will of the Force. All the power is still right there to grab, and you have the adrenaline rush to grab a lot, but you can't see where it wanted to go.

Passion, fear, anger, hate are great motivators, but help clear informed decisions they do not. That is where the Dark lives.

For some reason, I keep reading "emoticons" in these posts. Almost as if the Jedi try to clear their thoughts of emoticons while the Sith allow emoticons to rule their thoughts...

It makes a weird kind of sense to me...

13 hours ago, Rossbert said:

I also don't think the emotions are necessarily dark themselves, they just tend to lead to dark.

When you are emotional are you sure you are thinking clearly?

Are you sure that is the Force's will and not your own?

The more emotional you are the more static there is between you and Will of the Force. All the power is still right there to grab, and you have the adrenaline rush to grab a lot, but you can't see where it wanted to go.

Passion, fear, anger, hate are great motivators, but help clear informed decisions they do not. That is where the Dark lives.

The thing with the Jedi is that they're generally not trying to deny these emotions outright, but give a Jedi the tools and means to not surrender to spur-of-the-moment emotional responses and thus be able to think clearly and rationally in tense situations. It's not that much unlike the training that most soldiers go through, to allow them to not freeze up in the chaotic situation that is active combat, just applied to a broader range of situations.

But to an outsider, since a typical Jedi seems to retain an eerily calm sense of serenity under high stress situations, that degree of self-control comes across as the jedi being unfeeling and unemotional, when the reality is that the Jedi is feeling those emotions, but just simply has the mental training to not let their better judgment be swayed by those emotions. After all, how many people really think all that clearly when they're well and truly angry or scared for their lives? Given the kind of power your typical Jedi Knight has at their command, you don't want someone like that to constantly be making hasty emotion-fuelled decisions that could have drastic consequences down the road.