The only time you can spend a token is when an effect allows you to do so. You can not spend it on nothing,

Where in the Rules/FAQ is this stated?

The rules include effects that allow you to spend tokens. It doesn't mention allowing you to arbitrarily spend or discard tokens.

Spending a token to reroll zero dice or to change zero eyeballs to hits is still spending a token to perform their default modification effect.

If Palob moves into range 1-2 of a ship that has a focus token is it kosher for the player controlling that ship to announce "I'm going to spend my focus token" and remove the token from play before Palob has a chance to steal it? The rules don't say that you can't do that so it must be okay, right?

If Palob moves into range 1-2 of a ship that has a focus token is it kosher for the player controlling that ship to announce "I'm going to spend my focus token" and remove the token from play before Palob has a chance to steal it? The rules don't say that you can't do that so it must be okay, right?

Another example would be Garven Dreis.

If during a round Garven has no legal targets to attack, is not attacked by any enemy ships, and has no other way to spend a focus token such as R5 P9, can he trigger his pilot ability to pass his focus token to another friendly ship?

Of course not - Garven needs an opportunity to spend his token for an effect that is specified either in the rules or a pilot/upgrade card.

It's not quite the same as there is the opportunity to spend the token, it's just that the player has chosen to enable an ability that prevents it from being spent afterwards.

Where in the Rules/FAQ is this stated?

The moment you try to argue something based on what isn't in the rules, as in it doesn't say you can/can't do something so you can... You've lost the argument because it proves you don't understand how rules actually work.

Rules are designed to allow you to do things, they do not need to explicitly prevent anything because you can only do what they allow.

This is why I stand by my original point that HSCP triggers immediately after the dice roll.

Are you able to spend your focus, regardless of it actually modifying any results? If yes, then you must spend it.

All this folderol over things like timing and AC and OL are just muddying the waters when this really shouldn't be this hard.

I guess the one precedent we had was when you had to shoot at Biggs with whatever weapon could - from what I can tell that was only changed because of a attack timing chart change rather than the word 'must' being toned down. Obviously the waters are muddy enough to demand a FAQ, but with the Biggs thing in mind I imagine it's going to go 'you have to spend the focus before you Accuracy Correct it'.

Oh, and FAQ 4.1.1, page 5, under the heading, "Spending Tokens":

"When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack

dice. Additionally, players may spend a focus token even if they do not roll any

[Focus] results. When defending, players may spend focus tokens even if they do

not roll any [Focus] results and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in

excess of the number of hit and critical hit results."

All this folderol over things like timing and AC and OL are just muddying the waters when this really shouldn't be this hard.

You mean we should just ignore the interaction of one or more cards/upgrades in the game, just because it makes something more complex? Also based on your logic you would have to use your focus token before you can use your TL.

from what I can tell that was only changed because of a attack timing chart change rather than the word 'must' being toned down.

We can't actually know why it was changed, so you can't really make an argument based on like that. Also Bigs still required you to chose a weapon that could shoot at him after the timing chart came out.

Oh, and FAQ 4.1.1, page 5, under the heading, "Spending Tokens":

"When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack

dice. Additionally, players may spend a focus token even if they do not roll any

[Focus] results. When defending, players may spend focus tokens even if they do

not roll any [Focus] results and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in

excess of the number of hit and critical hit results."

That doesn't say that you can spend tokens without an effect that allows you to spend them.

That quoted block confirms three things:

1. Rerolling "any dice" includes rerolling "zero dice".

2. Changing "all focus results" includes changing "zero focus results".

3. You can add results to your defense dice results over and above what is needed to cancel hits and crits.

You'll also find something in the rules/FAQ that confirms that a set of dice results that contains zero results is still a set of dice results that can be modified.

None of this suggests that you don't need an effect that allows you to spend a token to be able to spend a token. Everything in the block you quoted has the context of using the default effect of those tokens as the vehicle for spending them.

Oh, and FAQ 4.1.1, page 5, under the heading, "Spending Tokens":

"When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack

dice. Additionally, players may spend a focus token even if they do not roll any

[Focus] results.

None of that has anything to do with the situation involving AC, because AC says you cannot further modify the dice roll, and in X-Wing cannot trumps everything else. That's why this whole discussion revolves around AC.

In any other situation the outcome is crystal clear, you have to spend the focus token even if you have no <focus> results to convert. AC on the other hand prevents you from doing that.

So the question becomes if you have to spend it before you use AC or not. If you have to spend the focus at the first possible opportunity that means you have to spend it before you can use a TL.

Another possibility is that you simply rewind to the last chance you had to spend it, such as just before you used AC at which point you convert zero or more <focus> results.

The last possibility is that since you can't spend your focus token to modify results after using AC you don't have to, because HSCP says "if able" unless you have some other effect you can spend a focus token on.

What is not a possibility per the rules is simply spending it for no effect, because converting zero <focus> is not the same thing as spending it for no effect.

from what I can tell that was only changed because of a attack timing chart change rather than the word 'must' being toned down.

We can't actually know why it was changed, so you can't really make an argument based on like that. Also Bigs still required you to chose a weapon that could shoot at him after the timing chart came out.

Oh, for sure. It's more of a 'I have a feeling it'll go this way' rather than a 'this 100% goes that way'.

.

So the question becomes if you have to spend it before you use AC or not. If you have to spend the focus at the first possible opportunity that means you have to spend it before you can use a TL.

That's a bit of a leap. Having to use a focus before AC =/= having to use a focus at the first opportunity. It would just mean you'd have to use the focus before doing something that will prevent you from using the focus after. Target lock wouldn't stop you from spending the focus afterwards.

Imagine you've got to the end of the attack, ask yourself "could I have spent a focus during that sequence of events?". If the answer is yes and you did, then great. If the answer is yes and you didn't, then you broke HSCP. Don't perform actions that will prevent you from using focus tokens later, when HSCP has already told you that you have to use a focus token.

That's a bit of a leap.

Then you clearly didn't actually read my post, because I pointed out 3 possible ways for HSCP and AC to interact.

Having to use a focus before AC =/= having to use a focus at the first opportunity.

Which is one of the three possible ways it would work that I listed above.

If the answer is yes and you didn't, then you broke HSCP.

Since HSCP says "if able" meaning if you created a situation where you can not spend the focus token HSCP is still satisfied, so nothing is broken.

Don't perform actions that will prevent you from using focus tokens later, when HSCP has already told you that you have to use a focus token.

This is one possible interpretation but not the only one, since the order of things is left up to the player, and the rules do not say anything about not being able to do something that will prevent some future action or effect. There is nothing in the rules that say if by doing X you are prevented from doing Y, you can not do X.

Biggs used to say that, by making you pick a weapon that could target him. But they reversed that ruling.

Now it's completely possible that FFG will issue a FAQ that says you have to rewind to the last possible opportunity to spend your focus token, or may say that you have to spend it at the first possible opportunity... both are completely valid ways to to rule, but so is saying that if you use something like AC before you spend the focus token then you don't have to because you are no longer able to do so.

Oh, and FAQ 4.1.1, page 5, under the heading, "Spending Tokens":

"When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack

dice. Additionally, players may spend a focus token even if they do not roll any

[Focus] results. When defending, players may spend focus tokens even if they do

not roll any [Focus] results and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in

excess of the number of hit and critical hit results."

That doesn't say that you can spend tokens without an effect that allows you to spend them.

That quoted block confirms three things:

1. Rerolling "any dice" includes rerolling "zero dice".

2. Changing "all focus results" includes changing "zero focus results".

3. You can add results to your defense dice results over and above what is needed to cancel hits and crits.

You'll also find something in the rules/FAQ that confirms that a set of dice results that contains zero results is still a set of dice results that can be modified.

None of this suggests that you don't need an effect that allows you to spend a token to be able to spend a token. Everything in the block you quoted has the context of using the default effect of those tokens as the vehicle for spending them.

All this folderol over things like timing and AC and OL are just muddying the waters when this really shouldn't be this hard.

You mean we should just ignore the interaction of one or more cards/upgrades in the game, just because it makes something more complex? Also based on your logic you would have to use your focus token before you can use your TL.

2. I'm absolutely saying that HSCP triggers before TL, LW or any other modification takes place. It would be nigh worthless if it didn't, as most people have a plan to use their focus when they perform a focus action. Being 'forced' to use it after they re-roll for whatever reason usually won't impact them that badly.

What I'm saying is that some posters here are muddying the topic with questions that are already answered by the card's text.

What questions are those? Because the only real question is what happens when you end up in a state of contradictions. Such as having one card say you must do something and another card saying you cannot do something.

Because the rules are actually quite clear about how cannot trumps everything else. So if the only question is must vs cannot, then cannot wins.

2. I'm absolutely saying that HSCP triggers before TL, LW or any other modification takes place.

But the RAW doesn't really support that. Nothing in the rules say you have to use anything at the first possible opportunity. Because an upgrade that forces someone to spend a token is new, so there are no rules that explicitly cover this situation.

So until we get a FAQ we can't actually point at a truly solid RAW source on how AC and HSCP interacts. So the most we can do is look at precedent and try to sort out how it should work...

2. I'm absolutely saying that HSCP triggers before TL, LW or any other modification takes place. It would be nigh worthless if it didn't, as most people have a plan to use their focus when they perform a focus action. Being 'forced' to use it after they re-roll for whatever reason usually won't impact them that badly.

I disagree about 'nigh worhless'. HSCP forces a defender with an obviously successful roll to spend a focus for no benefit. It forces a ship that would rather hold its token for defense to spend it on offense. It forces the spending of the token when there is no benefit to doing so. HSCP is an upgrade that forces your opponent's behavior and doesn't always allow them to make the optimum choice in spending their focus token.

HSCP would have been an awesome U-Boat counter if Deadeye hadn't received errata.

Even if the target of HSCP is able to choose the order to resolve modifications it is still a strong card.

I disagree about 'nigh worhless'.

I do too, and how the rules work is not based on how effective they make a given upgrade.

I'm about to bow out of this debate, because I honestly don't think there's anything more that can be said that hasn't already been said.

RAW is not really clear one way or the other, all three possible ways it could work are fairly valid per RAW. So until we get a FAQ all we have are various interpretations.

What I'm saying is that some posters here are muddying the topic with questions that are already answered by the card's text.

What questions are those? Because the only real question is what happens when you end up in a state of contradictions. Such as having one card say you must do something and another card saying you cannot do something. Because the rules are actually quite clear about how cannot trumps everything else. So if the only question is must vs cannot, then cannot wins.

2. I'm absolutely saying that HSCP triggers before TL, LW or any other modification takes place.

But the RAW doesn't really support that. Nothing in the rules say you have to use anything at the first possible opportunity. Because an upgrade that forces someone to spend a token is new, so there are no rules that explicitly cover this situation. So until we get a FAQ we can't actually point at a truly solid RAW source on how AC and HSCP interacts. So the most we can do is look at precedent and try to sort out how it should work...

For my precedent, I look at the abbreviation rule on dice modification: "you touch your dice last."

What I'm saying is that some posters here are muddying the topic with questions that are already answered by the card's text.

What questions are those? Because the only real question is what happens when you end up in a state of contradictions. Such as having one card say you must do something and another card saying you cannot do something. Because the rules are actually quite clear about how cannot trumps everything else. So if the only question is must vs cannot, then cannot wins.

2. I'm absolutely saying that HSCP triggers before TL, LW or any other modification takes place.

But the RAW doesn't really support that. Nothing in the rules say you have to use anything at the first possible opportunity. Because an upgrade that forces someone to spend a token is new, so there are no rules that explicitly cover this situation. So until we get a FAQ we can't actually point at a truly solid RAW source on how AC and HSCP interacts. So the most we can do is look at precedent and try to sort out how it should work...

Well said. However, my solution solves both of those:

For my precedent, I look at the abbreviation rule on dice modification: "you touch your dice last."

No one else is modifying your dice with HSCP. HSCP doesn't even force a modification at all (Kanan pilot satisfies HSCP and happens before any dice are even rolled).

HSCP doesn't even force a modification at all

Yeah, the only thing that's required is that you spend the focus token, what you spend it on doesn't matter. It just so happens that there's relatively few things you can spend it on in that situation.

Have we got any feedback on how this has been ruled during official tournaments?

2. I'm absolutely saying that HSCP triggers before TL, LW or any other modification takes place. It would be nigh worthless if it didn't, as most people have a plan to use their focus when they perform a focus action. Being 'forced' to use it after they re-roll for whatever reason usually won't impact them that badly.

I disagree about 'nigh worhless'. HSCP forces a defender with an obviously successful roll to spend a focus for no benefit. It forces a ship that would rather hold its token for defense to spend it on offense. It forces the spending of the token when there is no benefit to doing so. HSCP is an upgrade that forces your opponent's behavior and doesn't always allow them to make the optimum choice in spending their focus token.

HSCP would have been an awesome U-Boat counter if Deadeye hadn't received errata.

Even if the target of HSCP is able to choose the order to resolve modifications it is still a strong card.

If I'm playing SuperDash and roll a hit, a focus and two blanks, I want to spend my TL before my focus, and I'm going to. Being 'forced' to spend it after my TL is part of my plan. It's much more impactful if I have to spend my focus before my TL or Lone Wolf, etc.

But the RAW doesn't really support that. Nothing in the rules say you have to use anything at the first possible opportunity. Because an upgrade that forces someone to spend a token is new, so there are no rules that explicitly cover this situation. So until we get a FAQ we can't actually point at a truly solid RAW source on how AC and HSCP interacts. So the most we can do is look at precedent and try to sort out how it should work...

Well said. However, my solution solves both of those:
For my precedent, I look at the abbreviation rule on dice modification: "you touch your dice last."

No one else is modifying your dice with HSCP. HSCP doesn't even force a modification at all (Kanan pilot satisfies HSCP and happens before any dice are even rolled).

The text is very clear whose responsibility it is to spend the token, so "who touches the dice last" has nothing to do with Hotshot at all and can't be supported by the text on the card.

And I agree with this to a point. But allowing HSCP's target to play around it by choosing his own order of modification can nullify it pretty easily.
If I'm playing SuperDash and roll a hit, a focus and two blanks, I want to spend my TL before my focus, and I'm going to. Being 'forced' to spend it after my TL is part of my plan. It's much more impactful if I have to spend my focus before my TL or Lone Wolf, etc.

But one's wishes for the impact of the card don't have anything to do with how it should be ruled. The text only requires it to be spent by the defender during his defense or by the attacker during his attack. That is all, there's nothing more to read into the card.

But allowing HSCP's target to play around it by choosing his own order of modification can nullify it pretty easily.

No it really can't, you're still forced to spend the focus token even if you have to do after using a TL. Possibly accomplishing nothing with it but not having it for defense. But how much impact the focus token has is completely irrelevant to the rules.

Plus the idea of having to spend it at the first opportunity is completely contrary to the rules about being able to pick the order you perform actions based on a trigger. So having something that forces you do things in a given order is a fairly big change from how things work now... If Biggs still forced you to pick a weapon I'd say that was more likely than not, but given the chance to Biggs it seems less likely.

The idea of rewinding seems more likely than that, but IMO the RAW better supports the idea that you can ignore HSCP if you can set up a situation that prevents you from spending a focus token.

Which doesn't mean FFG will do it that way, but until we get a FAQ from them the best we have are varying opinions on how to interpret the interaction.

TBH... After all the discussions, I think a things are guarenteed.

1. Accuracy Corrector if used would block Focus use, as there is no legal way you could spend Focus after the use of it (unless you have an alternative way of using it that doesn't cause dice to be modified).

2. Focus can't just be discarded at any time. You have to have a legal way to spend it.

3. There is nothing in the way the card is worded that says it has to be used at the first available instance. Just needs to be spent during the attack.

The things I think are up in the air.

It says you must spend the token if able during the attack.

so it comes down to 2 possibilities I feel

1. Because you are able to spend it during the attack, you can't do an action which would stop you being able to spend it, for example Accuracy Corrector, before you spend the focus.

2. You get to choose the order of operation, so can choose to use Accuracy Corrector first, at which point you are no longer able to spend the focus token.

I don't think it is possible to say which is the correct reading, so it's a case of waiting for an FAQ... I would probably go for 1, in the mean time, but I don't see it ever coming up anyway.