It says that dice can not be modified, but wouldn't this be the same as modifying 0 dice (as none of the dice can be modified?

The Omega Leader established that modifying 0 dice is still a modification so you can't do it.

If “Omega Leader” has an enemy ship locked, when that ship attacks or defends against “Omega Leader,” that ship cannot resolve abilities that would modify dice, even 0 dice, such as Keyan Farlander’s ability.

Plus as I said, logically modifying 0 dice is still a modification and AC explicitly prevents that.

to understand what is mandatory in this game.

There is nothing mandatory about HSCP because it says 'if able' on it, that means if you aren't able to spend a focus token you don't have to.

The whole point is that you can by using AC set up a situation where you are unable to spend the focus token. Some people like SpaceInvader believe that you have to spend the focus token at the first opportunity to do so to avoid the kind of situation like AC sets up.

Myself and others believe that since you can chose when to spend that focus token you are allowed by the rules to set up a situation where you can't do so.

It's really a question of timing, do you have to spend the focus token at the first opportunity or not.

There is a 3rd camp that believes you can spend the focus at any point, but due to it saying 'if able' and you being able at some point during the attack. You must spend the focus before you use an ability that locks you out of spending it.

Say you have TL, Focus and Accuracy Corrector.

You can spend TL, because after using the TL you are still able to spend the focus

You can't use the Accuracy Corrector, as it locks you out of spending the focus until you spend the focus,

So you could TL, Focus, AC / Focus. TL, AC oe Focus,AC.,.. but not TL, AC or AC

So far I was standing on the side that you have to spend Focus before AC (as that is the only moment when you are able to do it).

Now I am thinking about the golden rule of 'Cannot'. There is no rule for 'if able' to say that you must use it before any abilities that may deny that ability. Cannot overrides 'if able' condition as per golden rule.

Therefore I must say I have to move to the other team, saying that you can block HSCP ability with AC if decided to use it first.

Although, it looks like I am going to use it so I would really love if FFG faq's it so that spending focus has to happen before any other dice modification...

THis is the first time 'if able' has happened, so there's really no precedent to go by.

We'll have to wait for an FAQ.

Why you can't spend it before?

You can, but the rules say you don't have to.

If you have more than one ability with the same timing trigger - i.e you have AC and a Focus token that you can use during the Attacker Modifies Dice step - the rules say the attacker can resolve those in any order of his choosing.

Therein lies the issue.

If HSCP is ruled that you MUST choose your dice modifications in a specific order then it contradicts this rule.

That in itself isn't a big deal as rules on cards are permitted to overule general rules.

But the HSCP card appears to contain a get-out clause of "If Able"

AC sets up a situation where you are not able

So both cards contain rules which overrule the general rules of dice modification - the question is which one takes precidence

Does this accuracy corrector exception all hinge on whether modifying 0 dice is technically still a modification ?

emphasis added to show that the answer to your question is contained within the question

Does this accuracy corrector exception all hinge on whether modifying 0 dice is technically still a modification?

I'd say, modifying or attempting to modify 0 dice is a modification, per the precedence set by the ruling on Omega Leader :

If “Omega Leader” has an enemy ship locked, when that ship attacks or defends against “Omega Leader,” that ship cannot resolve abilities that would modify dice, even 0 dice, such as Keyan Farlander’s ability. Additionally, that ship cannot resolve abilities that cause “Omega Leader” to reroll his dice (such as R7 Astromech or Elusiveness), as these are abilities that modify dice.

Therefore, since Accuracy Corrector has a clause that has similar wording to Omega Leader's ability:

Your dice cannot be modified again during this attack.

I'd agree that Accuracy Corrector bypasses Hotshot Copilots requirement to spend the focus when attacking the ship with Hotshot Copilot.

GOOD NEWS IS, I can't think of many ships that would gain anything from this. It would have to be a ship that wants to save its focus for Defense, has a system slot, and is okay with only scoring 0 or 2 hits with Accuracy Corrector. MAYBE an IG88 COULD do it? But for what gain, i'm not sure...Might as well take the Evade action and run FCS instead!

AND it would have to be shooting before the HotCoP, at the HotCoP, don't forget. Or the HotCoP will most likely have snagged its focus token anyway. So realistically, that's only likely to be PS8+ ships, which is only really... what, Quickdraw, Corran, Vader, Juno, Whisper/Echo, none of whom want AC anyway.

Though couldn't one argue that HotShotCP would force the ship to Accuracy Corrector to do this:

(1) Roll attack dice
(2) Spend Focus token [obligatory via HSCP]
(3) Use Accuracy Corrector

HSCP says if they are able to spend a Focus when attacking or Defending, they must. And the above scenario is a route in which they are, in fact, able to do so. Unfortunately, the timing window on HSCP is entirely unspecified. Would a B-Wing with Deadeye and 2x Focus (say, Recon) be forced to spend their second token on modification, or did spending the first token for Deadeye satisfy HSCP's "spend Focus while attacking" requirement?

I think the only thing that would prevent a HSCP from forcing a Focus expenditure would be if Jax was within Range 1 of the ship attacking/defending against HSCP or if the ship attacking HSCP was doing so via a Snap Shot attack.

Does this accuracy corrector exception all hinge on whether modifying 0 dice is technically still a modification?

I'd say, modifying or attempting to modify 0 dice is a modification, per the precedence set by the ruling on Omega Leader :

If “Omega Leader” has an enemy ship locked, when that ship attacks or defends against “Omega Leader,” that ship cannot resolve abilities that would modify dice, even 0 dice, such as Keyan Farlander’s ability. Additionally, that ship cannot resolve abilities that cause “Omega Leader” to reroll his dice (such as R7 Astromech or Elusiveness), as these are abilities that modify dice.

Therefore, since Accuracy Corrector has a clause that has similar wording to Omega Leader's ability:

Your dice cannot be modified again during this attack.

I'd agree that Accuracy Corrector bypasses Hotshot Copilots requirement to spend the focus when attacking the ship with Hotshot Copilot.

GOOD NEWS IS, I can't think of many ships that would gain anything from this. It would have to be a ship that wants to save its focus for Defense, has a system slot, and is okay with only scoring 0 or 2 hits with Accuracy Corrector. MAYBE an IG88 COULD do it? But for what gain, i'm not sure...Might as well take the Evade action and run FCS instead!

AND it would have to be shooting before the HotCoP, at the HotCoP, don't forget. Or the HotCoP will most likely have snagged its focus token anyway. So realistically, that's only likely to be PS8+ ships, which is only really... what, Quickdraw, Corran, Vader, Juno, Whisper/Echo, none of whom want AC anyway.

Don't know about Juno but since Quickdraw, Corran, and Vader don't have a crew slot they can't take Hot Shot Copilot anyway.

Though couldn't one argue that HotShotCP would force the ship to Accuracy Corrector to do this:

(1) Roll attack dice

(2) Spend Focus token [obligatory via HSCP]

(3) Use Accuracy Corrector

HSCP says if they are able to spend a Focus when attacking or Defending, they must. And the above scenario is a route in which they are, in fact, able to do so. Unfortunately, the timing window on HSCP is entirely unspecified. Would a B-Wing with Deadeye and 2x Focus (say, Recon) be forced to spend their second token on modification, or did spending the first token for Deadeye satisfy HSCP's "spend Focus while attacking" requirement?

I think the only thing that would prevent a HSCP from forcing a Focus expenditure would be if Jax was within Range 1 of the ship attacking/defending against HSCP or if the ship attacking HSCP was doing so via a Snap Shot attack.

One could. Many have.

I suggest reading the discussion before commenting

Fanatical Devotion could also block it, once that comes out, on the defence.

Does this accuracy corrector exception all hinge on whether modifying 0 dice is technically still a modification?

I'd say, modifying or attempting to modify 0 dice is a modification, per the precedence set by the ruling on Omega Leader :

If “Omega Leader” has an enemy ship locked, when that ship attacks or defends against “Omega Leader,” that ship cannot resolve abilities that would modify dice, even 0 dice, such as Keyan Farlander’s ability. Additionally, that ship cannot resolve abilities that cause “Omega Leader” to reroll his dice (such as R7 Astromech or Elusiveness), as these are abilities that modify dice.

Therefore, since Accuracy Corrector has a clause that has similar wording to Omega Leader's ability:

Your dice cannot be modified again during this attack.

I'd agree that Accuracy Corrector bypasses Hotshot Copilots requirement to spend the focus when attacking the ship with Hotshot Copilot.

GOOD NEWS IS, I can't think of many ships that would gain anything from this. It would have to be a ship that wants to save its focus for Defense, has a system slot, and is okay with only scoring 0 or 2 hits with Accuracy Corrector. MAYBE an IG88 COULD do it? But for what gain, i'm not sure...Might as well take the Evade action and run FCS instead!

AND it would have to be shooting before the HotCoP, at the HotCoP, don't forget. Or the HotCoP will most likely have snagged its focus token anyway. So realistically, that's only likely to be PS8+ ships, which is only really... what, Quickdraw, Corran, Vader, Juno, Whisper/Echo, none of whom want AC anyway.

Don't know about Juno but since Quickdraw, Corran, and Vader don't have a crew slot they can't take Hot Shot Copilot anyway.

Not relevant. We're talking about people shooting AT the HotCoP and wanting to block it from forcing them to spend offensive focus, not people shooting with it on board.

Does this accuracy corrector exception all hinge on whether modifying 0 dice is technically still a modification?

I'd say, modifying or attempting to modify 0 dice is a modification, per the precedence set by the ruling on Omega Leader :

If “Omega Leader” has an enemy ship locked, when that ship attacks or defends against “Omega Leader,” that ship cannot resolve abilities that would modify dice, even 0 dice, such as Keyan Farlander’s ability. Additionally, that ship cannot resolve abilities that cause “Omega Leader” to reroll his dice (such as R7 Astromech or Elusiveness), as these are abilities that modify dice.

Therefore, since Accuracy Corrector has a clause that has similar wording to Omega Leader's ability:

Your dice cannot be modified again during this attack.

I'd agree that Accuracy Corrector bypasses Hotshot Copilots requirement to spend the focus when attacking the ship with Hotshot Copilot.

GOOD NEWS IS, I can't think of many ships that would gain anything from this. It would have to be a ship that wants to save its focus for Defense, has a system slot, and is okay with only scoring 0 or 2 hits with Accuracy Corrector. MAYBE an IG88 COULD do it? But for what gain, i'm not sure...Might as well take the Evade action and run FCS instead!

AND it would have to be shooting before the HotCoP, at the HotCoP, don't forget. Or the HotCoP will most likely have snagged its focus token anyway. So realistically, that's only likely to be PS8+ ships, which is only really... what, Quickdraw, Corran, Vader, Juno, Whisper/Echo, none of whom want AC anyway.

Or not have been the ship that the HSCP ship shot that round.

Does this accuracy corrector exception all hinge on whether modifying 0 dice is technically still a modification?

I'd say, modifying or attempting to modify 0 dice is a modification, per the precedence set by the ruling on Omega Leader :

If “Omega Leader” has an enemy ship locked, when that ship attacks or defends against “Omega Leader,” that ship cannot resolve abilities that would modify dice, even 0 dice, such as Keyan Farlander’s ability. Additionally, that ship cannot resolve abilities that cause “Omega Leader” to reroll his dice (such as R7 Astromech or Elusiveness), as these are abilities that modify dice.

Therefore, since Accuracy Corrector has a clause that has similar wording to Omega Leader's ability:

Your dice cannot be modified again during this attack.

I'd agree that Accuracy Corrector bypasses Hotshot Copilots requirement to spend the focus when attacking the ship with Hotshot Copilot.

GOOD NEWS IS, I can't think of many ships that would gain anything from this. It would have to be a ship that wants to save its focus for Defense, has a system slot, and is okay with only scoring 0 or 2 hits with Accuracy Corrector. MAYBE an IG88 COULD do it? But for what gain, i'm not sure...Might as well take the Evade action and run FCS instead!

AND it would have to be shooting before the HotCoP, at the HotCoP, don't forget. Or the HotCoP will most likely have snagged its focus token anyway. So realistically, that's only likely to be PS8+ ships, which is only really... what, Quickdraw, Corran, Vader, Juno, Whisper/Echo, none of whom want AC anyway.

Don't know about Juno but since Quickdraw, Corran, and Vader don't have a crew slot they can't take Hot Shot Copilot anyway.

Not relevant. We're talking about people shooting AT the HotCoP and wanting to block it from forcing them to spend offensive focus, not people shooting with it on board.

oops missed that part. Man I really need to get better about reading everything before I open my mouth.

Or not have been the ship that the HSCP ship shot that round.

Having played HotCoP a few times already... like hell I'm not shooting at something in my range which has a focus token, especially one of that list of terrors.

The real question is who DOES use accuracy corrector?

And the answer is... well, pretty much nobody, actually. TIE Advanced swarms maybe?

The real question is who DOES use accuracy corrector?

And the answer is... well, pretty much nobody, actually. TIE Advanced swarms maybe?

Yeah this is somewhat of an academic question since it's unlikely that you'll see someone actually using AC against someone with the HSCP upgrade.

But as I know you'd agree, the important thing is finding out how it should work so we know what to do with this and future upgrades of similar nature (both similar to HSCP and how they interact with cards like AC)

"When attacking with your primary weapon, the defender must spend one focus token if able.

When defending, the attacker must spend one focus token if able"

Initially I did not read this carefully and responded to what I believed was the intent of the card: if you have a focus you have to spend it at some point during the attack or defense to satisfy the card. But read again: must spend if able.

If you're kanan, you are able to spend during the second step to reduce the attacker's dice pool. Therefore you must spend. Which you'd want to do anyway, so that's fine.

But say you roll your attack against the hot cop. You get a hit, an eyeball, and a blank. So you want to use your target lock and then spend the focus. Except having rolled the dice you meet the only criteria that the card lays out: you are now able to spend a focus token. Therefore you must spend the focus token. Only then can you reroll.

Because there's no timing window provided. You don't get to pick the order to resolve simultaneous effects because there are no simultaneous effects. There is only a requirement: must spend, if able. You are able to spend prior to rerolling. Therefore you must. It's an if-then, and you meet the if as soon as you roll.

Right? if not, why not?

I doubt this to be true. There is a timing window provided. It's the entire attack. You must spend the focus token, but it must be spent while attacking, ANY TIME while attacking, because that's the timing window.

people really are going nuts over the first card to have a wide timing window....

I have yet to see a convincing argument that anything about Hotshot Copilot overrides the general rules about the order of effects that share a timing window. This leaves it to the player whose ship has both the Accuracy Corrector and a focus token to determine which one they use first.

If it said "during the modify dice step, the attacker must spend one focus token before any other dice modifications" then there'd be no question. But it doesn't say that, it just says "when defending the attacker must spend one focus token if able." Anything else is adding things to the card that aren't there.

I have yet to see a convincing argument that anything about Hotshot Copilot overrides the general rules about the order of effects that share a timing window. This leaves it to the player whose ship has both the Accuracy Corrector and a focus token to determine which one they use first.

If it said "during the modify dice step, the attacker must spend one focus token before any other dice modifications" then there'd be no question. But it doesn't say that, it just says "when defending the attacker must spend one focus token if able." Anything else is adding things to the card that aren't there.

If I understand the argument for the '"if able" equals "first opportunity"' interpretation correctly, it puts the target of HSCP into the following loop at every step of the attack sequence:

Is there some way that I can spend a focus token right now?

If no, continue on as normal.

If yes, have I already spent a token yet this attack?

If yes, continue on as normal.

If no, you must do something that spends a focus token.

I don't think that's the correct interpretation of the card but I can see how people might come to that conclusion.

That way lies madness.

I mean, that opens up a whole debate about whether an attacker with Deadeye and ordnance in range will then be forced to fire the ordnance, thereby spending the focus. I know the weapon must be chosen and cost paid before the target becomes the defender, but that hasn't stopped people from questioning when a ship is "actually" the defender before, so it's just going to go downhill.

Granted, it is a bit unusual that HSCP requires you to go through all the normal attack steps and once you get to the end, if you haven't spent your focus, you need to back up to a point at which you can legally spend it and do so. But really, if you don't have anything that allows you to spend a focus outside of modifying attack dice, you should know you have to spend them to modify 0 or more dice and do it at that point so there's no need to backtrack.

But really, if you don't have anything that allows you to spend a focus outside of modifying attack dice, you should know you have to spend them to modify 0 or more dice and do it at that point so there's no need to backtrack.

That's pretty much what WWHSD listed above. If we go with that line of thinking you will have to spend the focus token at the first opportunity to do so. Because the rules generally can't account for something that may happen at some future point. That means having to spend it before you can use a TL.

I don't think that quite follows. If you have a TL and a focus, and nothing else that you could spend a focus token for, you know you have to spend the focus to modify dice, but I see no reason you need to spend the focus first before the target lock.

I think WWHSD is taking it one step at a time, whereas I'm considering the timing window as a whole, as in my backtrack comment. In WWHSD's version, if you have two effects that require the spending of a focus token, you're required to spend it at the first opportunity. Let's say you have a pilot ability that lets you spend a focus token to turn all the defender's evade results to focus results. You'll never get to use it because your first opportunity to spend a focus token is on attack dice even if you roll zero eyeballs. In my version, you have the choice to forego spending it on attack dice in order to spend it on defense dice. It gets weird if you do neither and get to the end of the timing window and realize you have a focus left over that you needed to spend, but then as a player you should be aware of all your abilities and remember you need to spend it before you get to that point. At that point, though, it's like missing any other mandatory trigger - you go back and do it.

but then as a player you should be aware of all your abilities and remember you need to spend it before you get to that point.

The rules can't account for something that may happen in the future, they can only account for things that have happened or are happening.

Yes if you miss an effect like stress from a red maneuver you should go back and correct that, but there will be a point in which you can no longer do so.

However what you're saying is that if someone choses to use AC, they have to rewind the game to a point prior to using it to spend a focus token possibly to modify zero dice. However there's nothing in the rules that really require this, because HSCP does say 'if able' so if RAW you've created a situation that makes you unable to do something you don't have to do it.

IMO simply saying that in the rare cases like Accuracy Corrector it causes the least amount of disruption to the game to simply play it as it's written, which means you don't have to spend the focus since you are not able to do so.

However what you're saying is that if someone choses to use AC, they have to rewind the game to a point prior to using it to spend a focus token possibly to modify zero dice.

Not at all, and I'm firmly in the camp that believes the player can choose to use AC before spending a focus and that doing so allows them to keep their focus. I think I can see why you got a different impression from what I said though.

I'm basically trying to say the player has the choice of what effect they get to use the focus for (if able) and when, as opposed to at the first opportunity (see my modifying defense dice example). However, if you get to the end of the attack, were able to use the focus (no AC) and didn't, you need to back up and spend it (my backtrack comment). I also contend that this should generally not happen because there are only so many ways to use a focus during an attack and the player should know at any given point if they will have another chance to spend it later on or not.

I fully subscribe to the Golden Rule as mentioned in your sig, and HSCP says nothing about "first opportunity" as some people want to read into it.

However, if you get to the end of the attack, were able to use the focus (no AC) and didn't, you need to back up and spend it (my backtrack comment).

Oh ok I see Yeah if you had nothing that could have prevented you from spending it like AC and you didn't, yes you would need to rewind and spend it, even if has no effect.