It comes down to this:

A computer that has to inexorably progress in its programming, never looks forward, and can never actually regress ... that computer could process Hot-Shot Co-Pilot such that it could delay the use of a focus token until it no longer had the ability to use a focus token.

A human being has the ability to look forward, to look backward, and if absolutely necessary to roll back very slightly to a negligibly different game-state. Such a human being can quite easily look at the timing window of Hot-Shot Co-Pilot and adhere to it.

More and more, X-Wing is played less by humans, and more by beings that aspire to be computers. So there's a clear distinction between people who can play the game as human -- who recognize the intent of HSCP is to force the spending of focus tokens if at all possible -- and those who can't -- who insist that since it's programmatically possible to follow the timing phases of the game and bypass HSCP's clear intent, it obviously must be fixed so that's no longer programmatically possible.

FFG has tended toward catering to the latter, so HSCP will certainly get FAQed.

Because it's easier to FAQ it so that it adheres to the programmatic viewpoint, that's probably what will be done, discarding the intent (and any recognition that the game is actually played by humans) along the way.

However, if you get to the end of the attack, were able to use the focus (no AC) and didn't, you need to back up and spend it (my backtrack comment).

Oh ok I see Yeah if you had nothing that could have prevented you from spending it like AC and you didn't, yes you would need to rewind and spend it, even if has no effect.

AC won't prevent you from spending the token. It does prevent you from further dice modification, not from spending the token. you can spend a token with no effect. No rewinding necessary.

Seems like there is some confusion over the difference of spending a token and the effects of spending a token. they are not the same. I thnk the simpilest way to compare the two is comparing Omega Leader and Carnor Jax.

Omega Leader prevents dice modification but not token spending. you could still spend a token to fire a blaster turret

Carnor Jax prevents performing Focus and Evade actions and spending Focus or Evade tokens but not dice modification. You could still mod your dice from autothrusters

using Accuracy Corector prevents further dice modification, does nothing to stop spending tokens.

Then there is the Omega Leader ruling: i f “Omega Leader” has an enemy ship locked, when that ship attacks or defends against “Omega Leader,” that ship cannot resolve abilities that would modify dice, even 0 dice, such as Keyan Farlander’s ability. Additionally, that ship cannot resolve abilities that cause “Omega Leader” to reroll his dice (such as R7 Astromech or Elusiveness), as these are abilities that modify dice.

First off, spending tokens is not an ability. Its a game mechanic that every ship can do. Second, the example given is Keyan's ability. Keyan's ability has nothing to do with token spending. it procs when he has a stress token and that token is removed, not spent. there is a difference.

Hot shot co pilot forces the attacker /defender against the ship carrying the crew to spend a token. abilities like carnor Jax's prevent token spending so in his presence, you may not be able to.

Hot shot co pilot works exactly like this:

On Offfense

HSCP attacks

Defender rolls dice

attacker modifies defense dice

defender modifies defense dice (Focus must be spent, if able, sometime by the end of this)

On defense

Ship attacks HSCP

Attacker rolls dice

Defender modifies dice

Attacker modifies dice (Focus must be spent, if able, sometime by the end of this)

Other than Carnor Jax, the only thing I can think of off the top of my head that would prevent spending a token would be 4-LOM after taking an ion token to prevent a defender from spending an evade. Are there other abilities that actually prevent token spending?

It comes down to this:

A computer that has to inexorably progress in its programming, never looks forward, and can never actually regress ... that computer could process Hot-Shot Co-Pilot such that it could delay the use of a focus token until it no longer had the ability to use a focus token.

A human being has the ability to look forward, to look backward, and if absolutely necessary to roll back very slightly to a negligibly different game-state. Such a human being can quite easily look at the timing window of Hot-Shot Co-Pilot and adhere to it.

More and more, X-Wing is played less by humans, and more by beings that aspire to be computers. So there's a clear distinction between people who can play the game as human -- who recognize the intent of HSCP is to force the spending of focus tokens if at all possible -- and those who can't -- who insist that since it's programmatically possible to follow the timing phases of the game and bypass HSCP's clear intent, it obviously must be fixed so that's no longer programmatically possible.

FFG has tended toward catering to the latter, so HSCP will certainly get FAQed.

Because it's easier to FAQ it so that it adheres to the programmatic viewpoint, that's probably what will be done, discarding the intent (and any recognition that the game is actually played by humans) along the way.

Get off your high horse.

#1: Ruling by intent is a terrible way to run a game. By your reasoning, they would never have clarified just exactly how Cluster Missiles work in new rulebook. I think this forum has shown that there is a very, very diverse view of what they view is the intent of this game.

#2: FAQ = Frequently Asked Questions. So please explain it to me why you think this shouldn't be in the fact for clarification? The FAQ is for those who are not good at rules just as much as those that are. Or do you really think some of the FAQ stuff is for your "computer" players.

However, if you get to the end of the attack, were able to use the focus (no AC) and didn't, you need to back up and spend it (my backtrack comment).

Oh ok I see Yeah if you had nothing that could have prevented you from spending it like AC and you didn't, yes you would need to rewind and spend it, even if has no effect.

AC won't prevent you from spending the token. It does prevent you from further dice modification, not from spending the token. you can spend a token with no effect. No rewinding necessary.

Seems like there is some confusion over the difference of spending a token and the effects of spending a token. they are not the same. I thnk the simpilest way to compare the two is comparing Omega Leader and Carnor Jax.

Omega Leader prevents dice modification but not token spending. you could still spend a token to fire a blaster turret

Carnor Jax prevents performing Focus and Evade actions and spending Focus or Evade tokens but not dice modification. You could still mod your dice from autothrusters

using Accuracy Corector prevents further dice modification, does nothing to stop spending tokens.

Then there is the Omega Leader ruling: i f “Omega Leader” has an enemy ship locked, when that ship attacks or defends against “Omega Leader,” that ship cannot resolve abilities that would modify dice, even 0 dice, such as Keyan Farlander’s ability. Additionally, that ship cannot resolve abilities that cause “Omega Leader” to reroll his dice (such as R7 Astromech or Elusiveness), as these are abilities that modify dice.

First off, spending tokens is not an ability. Its a game mechanic that every ship can do. Second, the example given is Keyan's ability. Keyan's ability has nothing to do with token spending. it procs when he has a stress token and that token is removed, not spent. there is a difference.

I think it's widely accepted that that bit about not being able to resolve abilities that modify results when you are prohibited from modifying results extends to the default effects for tokens as well. You can't just arbitrarily spend a token, it must be spent on something. The rules text of the focus action is fairly clear that the focus is spent to modify dice results. If you are prohibited from modifying dice it makes sense that you are unable to spend a token to do so. The Omega Leader ruling is supports this. I don't see anything in the rules or the FAQ that even hints that you are allowed to spend a token for an effect when that effect is blocked.

I don't believe that spending a focus token as the cost for an attack would satisfy the conditions of HSCP as the "when defending" window doesn't being until after the token is spent.

Other than Carnor Jax, the only thing I can think of off the top of my head that would prevent spending a token would be 4-LOM after taking an ion token to prevent a defender from spending an evade. Are there other abilities that actually prevent token spending?

Fanatical Devotion will stop focus tokens from being spent on defense.

I have to be missing something in this argument on why you still wouldn't be able to spend the focus token when using Accuracy Corrector. Here all the references I can find pertaining to the situation. They came from the rules reference, current FAQ, and the cards themselves. Please show me what I'm missing here. Show me why HSCP does not make you spend your focus when you use Accuracy Corrector because from the rules reference itself it clearly states that you can spend the focus even if you do not roll any focus results. Spending the focus is separate according to the rules reference. Show me where it says that since I can not modify a die result that you can not spend the focus token.

HSCP - When attacking with a primary weapon, the defender must spend 1 focus token if able. When defending, the attacker must spend 1 focus token if able.

Accuracy Corrector - When attacking, during the “Modify Attack Dice” step, you may cancel all of your dice results. Then you may add 2 results to your roll. Your dice cannot be modified again this attack.

From FAQ:

Spending tokens When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack dice. Additionally, players may spend a focus token even if they do not roll any focus results. When defending, players may spend focus tokens even if they do not roll any evade results and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in excess of the number of hit and critical hit results.
Focus, evade, and target lock tokens cannot be spent for their normal effect more than once during the "Modify Attack Dice" and "Modify Defense Dice" steps. For example, a ship cannot spend 2 evade tokens to add 2 evade results. However, a ship can spend more than 1 of each token on different effects, such as spending 1 focus token as the cost for Calculation and another focus token focus token for its inherent effect.

Accuracy Corrector from FAQ:

Accuracy Corrector is used during the “Modify Attack Dice” step. After canceling your dice results, you may choose not to add 2 hit results. This still counts as an attack. Dice results added by Accuracy Corrector may not be modified again, but may be canceled (for example, by the effect of Ion Cannon). Accuracy Corrector can be used to add 2 hit results even if you have the Blinded Pilot Damage (original Damage deck) card and are rolling no attack dice.

From Rules Reference:

FOCUS Ships with the focus icon in their action bar may perform the focus action. To perform the action, assign one focus token to the ship. When attacking or defending, the ship may spend that token to change all of its focus results to hit results (on attack dice) or evade results (on defense dice). All unspent focus tokens are removed from ships during the End phase.
• A ship can have more than one focus token.
• A ship can spend a focus token even if it did not roll any focus results.

• If a card ability instructs a player to assign a focus token to a ship, this is different than performing a focus action. The ship is assigned the token without performing an action and may still perform the focus action this round.

Related Topics: Actions, Attack, End Phase, Modifying Dice

MODIFYING DICE Players can modify dice by spending focus, evade, and target lock tokens and by resolving card abilities. Dice can be modified in the following ways: • Add: To add a die result, place an unused die displaying the result next to the rolled dice. A die added in this way is treated as a normal die for all purposes and can be modified and canceled.

• Change: To change a die result, rotate the die so that its faceup side displays the new result.

• Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again.
• Dice can be modified by multiple effects, but a die cannot be rerolled more than once.

Related Topics: Acquire a Target Lock, Attack, Card Abilities, Dice Results, Evade, Focus

On top of all this, Accuracy Corrector changes the die rolls to 2 hits. Even though there is no focus results and I can not change them because of Accuracy Corrector it still states a ship can spend a focus token even if it did not roll any focus results.

"I think it's widely accepted that that bit about not being able to resolve abilities that modify results when you are prohibited from modifying results extends to the default effects for tokens as well."

I don't feel that this is widely accepted. Triggering abilities and spending tokens are different animals. A generic pilot with no ability whatsoever can still perform actions and spend tokens through the game mechanics. Has nothing to do with abilities.

"You can't just arbitrarily spend a token, it must be spent on something. "

you can. It's stated in the focus token rules that a token can be spent even if no Focus results are rolled. In the case of Hot Shot Co Pilot, It is being spent on something. It's being spent to satisfy the requirements for the Hot Shot Co Pilot upgrade.

"The rules text of the focus action is fairly clear that the focus is spent to modify dice results. If you are prohibited from modifying dice it makes sense that you are unable to spend a token to do so".

The rules are also clear that you can spend a token on 0 results to modify nothing.

"The Omega Leader ruling is supports this."

no, it doesn't. Omega Leader shuts down Modifications. Not spending. Keyan's ability is to REMOVE a stress to mod dice, even 0 dice. it allows him to shred a stress. Omega Leader shuts down his ABILITY to mod dice which prevents him from shredding a stress. it has nothing to do with spending. When Omega Leader is involved, you can still spend tokens and mod nothing like you can if you rolled 0 focus results and still spend the token.

"I don't see anything in the rules or the FAQ that even hints that you are allowed to spend a token for an effect when that effect is blocked."

the only example I can think of would be the accuracy corrector one. That rule states a ship can still spend a token with no focus results. Where does it say that you can't spend one when an effect is blocked?

"I don't believe that spending a focus token as the cost for an attack would satisfy the conditions of HSCP as the "when defending" window doesn't being until after the token is spent."

I agree. I wasn't trying to imply that it would, just that tokens can be spent on things other than dice modification. With HSCP you're spending to satisfiy the upgrade. Getting to modify your dice is a bonus not a requirement.

PanchoX1, on 15 Nov 2016 - 9:23 PM, said:

Other than Carnor Jax, the only thing I can think of off the top of my head that would prevent spending a token would be 4-LOM after taking an ion token to prevent a defender from spending an evade. Are there other abilities that actually prevent token spending?

"Fanatical Devotion will stop focus tokens from being spent on defense."

And I forgot Dark Curse who prevents attackers from spending Focus Tokens. But he wouldn't stop Hot Shot Co Pilot from affecting him as a defender. So Carnor Jax and Fanatical Devotion are really the only things that would make one unable to spend a token.

I don't feel that this is widely accepted.

Feelings don't factor into it. It's a fact that you can't simply spend a focus token for no effect. You can spend one to modify zero dice, but you can't just spend it on nothing.

It's stated in the focus token rules that a token can be spent even if no Focus results are rolled.

Yes, you are spending it to modify zero dice.

It's being spent to satisfy the requirements for the Hot Shot Co Pilot upgrade.

HSCP isn't an effect you can spend a focus token on.

Show me why HSCP does not make you spend your focus when you use Accuracy Corrector because from the rules reference itself it clearly states that you can spend the focus even if you do not roll any focus results.

Because of the golden rule. Accuracy Corrector says "you cannot modify dice further" that means you can't spend a focus token to modify zero dice. So unless you have something else to spend that focus token on, something that doesn't involve modifying dice you can't spend it.

On top of all this, Accuracy Corrector changes the die rolls to 2 hits. Even though there is no focus results and I can not change them because of Accuracy Corrector it still states a ship can spend a focus token even if it did not roll any focus results.

Accuracy Corrector prevents you from further modifying dice results. Modifying zero results is still modifying results. You need to be able to modify results to be able to spend the token.

you can. It's stated in the focus token rules that a token can be spent even if no Focus results are rolled. In the case of Hot Shot Co Pilot, It is being spent on something. It's being spent to satisfy the requirements for the Hot Shot Co Pilot upgrade.

"The rules text of the focus action is fairly clear that the focus is spent to modify dice results. If you are prohibited from modifying dice it makes sense that you are unable to spend a token to do so".

The rules are also clear that you can spend a token on 0 results to modify nothing.

"The Omega Leader ruling is supports this."

no, it doesn't. Omega Leader shuts down Modifications. Not spending. Keyan's ability is to REMOVE a stress to mod dice, even 0 dice. it allows him to shred a stress. Omega Leader shuts down his ABILITY to mod dice which prevents him from shredding a stress. it has nothing to do with spending. When Omega Leader is involved, you can still spend tokens and mod nothing like you can if you rolled 0 focus results and still spend the token.

Omega Leader absolutely prevents, say, Garven Dreis from spending a focus token during his attack. This is because spending a focus token IS considered modifying dice (you spend it TO change results, even if the number of dice to be changed is zero). [if a torpedo with the "Focus" header came out, however, Garven would totally be able to spend it in this scenario]

Omega Leader's FAQ entry in this section was exactly to point out that you cannot do anything with the effect of modifying dice, even if the number of dice modified is zero, for which the net effect is nothing more than spending the token. Which, incidentally, is equivalent to removing the token (see Rules Reference, "Spend").

Thing to keep in mind...

There is per the rules a real difference between spending a focus token for no real effect, and spending one on nothing.

At one point one of the FAQ's or perhaps it was an email that said that Garven can't spend a focus token on nothing so he could pass it off to someone else.

@WWHSD for some reason it won't let me Like your post...

On top of all this, Accuracy Corrector changes the die rolls to 2 hits. Even though there is no focus results and I can not change them because of Accuracy Corrector it still states a ship can spend a focus token even if it did not roll any focus results.

Accuracy Corrector prevents you from further modifying dice results. Modifying zero results is still modifying results. You need to be able to modify results to be able to spend the token.

Aren't you able to modify before you cancel the results, though?

Aren't you able to modify before you cancel the results, though?

You can, the question is if you have to or not. Since canceling is part of modifying that means you can pick the order you do things in, so you can chose to cancel the dice before you use your focus token, and once you do that you can no longer spend the token.

Aren't you able to modify before you cancel the results, though?

You can, the question is if you have to or not. Since canceling is part of modifying that means you can pick the order you do things in, so you can chose to cancel the dice before you use your focus token, and once you do that you can no longer spend the token.

I'd have assumed that the word 'must' in HSCP means that you have to do it if you have the opportunity... but I don't know whether 'must' has a particular definition in the rules already.

On top of all this, Accuracy Corrector changes the die rolls to 2 hits. Even though there is no focus results and I can not change them because of Accuracy Corrector it still states a ship can spend a focus token even if it did not roll any focus results.

Accuracy Corrector prevents you from further modifying dice results. Modifying zero results is still modifying results. You need to be able to modify results to be able to spend the token.

Aren't you able to modify before you cancel the results, though?

Yes. THAT is where the controversy is - whether HotCoP would make you do that or not.

Ah, sorry, missed how long the discussion had been going on for. Carry on!

but I don't know whether 'must' has a particular definition in the rules already.

None that we know of, plus HSCP says 'if able'... Which is what really throws the monkey wrench into the works.

Some people believe that if you have the ability to spend it at any point, you must do so before you create a situation where you are no longer able to do so. Others believe that if you can set up a situation where you cannot spend it then you don't have to rewind to a point where you could.

Edit: I should add, that both sides have a reasonable argument per RAW, so this really needs to be addressed in a FAQ so we know what the RAI should be.

you can. It's stated in the focus token rules that a token can be spent even if no Focus results are rolled. In the case of Hot Shot Co Pilot, It is being spent on something. It's being spent to satisfy the requirements for the Hot Shot Co Pilot upgrade.

"The rules text of the focus action is fairly clear that the focus is spent to modify dice results. If you are prohibited from modifying dice it makes sense that you are unable to spend a token to do so".

The rules are also clear that you can spend a token on 0 results to modify nothing.

"The Omega Leader ruling is supports this."

no, it doesn't. Omega Leader shuts down Modifications. Not spending. Keyan's ability is to REMOVE a stress to mod dice, even 0 dice. it allows him to shred a stress. Omega Leader shuts down his ABILITY to mod dice which prevents him from shredding a stress. it has nothing to do with spending. When Omega Leader is involved, you can still spend tokens and mod nothing like you can if you rolled 0 focus results and still spend the token.

You have taken the semantic difference between "remove" and "spend" too far.

I dont think I have. The vocabulary on these cards are used to be very specific. Spend and remove is different like performing an action to get a token is different from assigning a token to get a token. Wing man instructs you to remove a token. That token is not being spent. Why would keyan's remove be different?

you can. It's stated in the focus token rules that a token can be spent even if no Focus results are rolled. In the case of Hot Shot Co Pilot, It is being spent on something. It's being spent to satisfy the requirements for the Hot Shot Co Pilot upgrade.

"The rules text of the focus action is fairly clear that the focus is spent to modify dice results. If you are prohibited from modifying dice it makes sense that you are unable to spend a token to do so".

The rules are also clear that you can spend a token on 0 results to modify nothing.

"The Omega Leader ruling is supports this."

no, it doesn't. Omega Leader shuts down Modifications. Not spending. Keyan's ability is to REMOVE a stress to mod dice, even 0 dice. it allows him to shred a stress. Omega Leader shuts down his ABILITY to mod dice which prevents him from shredding a stress. it has nothing to do with spending. When Omega Leader is involved, you can still spend tokens and mod nothing like you can if you rolled 0 focus results and still spend the token.

You have taken the semantic difference between "remove" and "spend" too far.

I dont think I have. The vocabulary on these cards are used to be very specific. Spend and remove is different like performing an action to get a token is different from assigning a token to get a token. Wing man instructs you to remove a token. That token is not being spent. Why would keyan's remove be different?

The rules don't give an answer to "Can you spend tokens on their default effect when you are unable to modify results". They don't say that you can but they don't say that you can't.

The Omega Leader ruling supports the idea that you can't. It doesn't specifically address the default effects of tokens, but it is a ruling on something similar enough to draw conclusions from.

What is it that supports being able to spend tokens for their default effect when you are unable to modify results? If you don't think the Omega Leader ruling is close enough to use as a precedent, what is it in the rules that more clearly points the other way?

The rules are also clear that you can spend a token on 0 results to modify nothing.

Which still means you are modifying the dice, which Accuracy Corrector explicitly prevents you from doing. There is also nothing in the rules that allow you to simply spend a focus or any other token for no effect. Again modifying zero dice is not the same thing as spending a token for no effect.

Omega Leader shuts down Modifications. Not spending.

You're right, and if there was something else you could spend that focus token on, you could do so. But there are only so many things you can spend a focus token on. You can't simply discard a focus token, or any other token for that matter. You can only remove it when something in the game allows you to do so.

I'm still waiting for you to give me a SPECIFIC example from one of the the sources in the faq or rules STATING that you can't spend the token. The only rule that even comes close to this is "A ship can spend a focus token even if it did not roll any focus results." There is no mention of modification. That's all it states. So, SHOW ME where in the rules that it applies. Give me something that proves your argument. Not a belief.

Do what it says not what it doesn't say.

I'm still waiting for you to give me a SPECIFIC example from one of the the sources in the faq or rules STATING that you can't spend the token. The only rule that even comes close to this is "A ship can spend a focus token even if it did not roll any focus results." There is no mention of modification. That's all it states. So, SHOW ME where in the rules that it applies. Give me something that proves your argument. Not a belief.

I suppose it's more implied (and rather strongly implied) than stated explicitly

How many steps are there during the game would you spend a focus token as a result of dice being rolled, and convert eyeballs (even zero eyeballs) ?

As far as I can think of off the top of my head there's only 2

The Attacker Modifies Attack Dice substep of the Attack sequence and the Defender Modifies Defence Dice substep of the Attack sequence

Ergo these must be dice modifications because they happen at a point in the game when the only action you can take is to modify dice

I'm still waiting for you to give me a SPECIFIC example from one of the the sources in the faq or rules STATING that you can't spend the token. The only rule that even comes close to this is "A ship can spend a focus token even if it did not roll any focus results." There is no mention of modification. That's all it states. So, SHOW ME where in the rules that it applies. Give me something that proves your argument. Not a belief.

STATING that you can't spend the token.

Accuracy Corrector explicitly says you may not modify the dice. Per the golden rule, cannot trumps everything, so AC trumps any other effect in the game. You cannot spend the focus token to modify the dice after using AC.

The only time you can spend a token is when an effect allows you to do so. You can not spend it on nothing, and again spending a token to modify zero dice is not the same thing as spending it on nothing.

There is no mention of modification.

Any and all changes to dice is a form of modification, even if it involves zero dice. This is what the OL FAQ entry makes clear. AC doesn't allow any sort of modification, so you cannot spend the focus token to modify even zero dice. Which again doesn't mean you can't spend the focus token on something else, but in the situation where you're using AC there is nothing else you can spend that focus token on at that time.

The only time you can spend a token is when an effect allows you to do so. You can not spend it on nothing,

Where in the Rules/FAQ is this stated?