But at now, you are completely free to spend that token as you want. Just you MUST spend it (so you can't create a situation that makes it impossible to do, if you can not).

Nope.

Again see the "if able" clause

Are you forced to use Accuracy Corrector? No.

Are you forced to spend that token? Yes.

Can you use accuracy corrector to prevent yourself by spending the token? Nope.

Easy.

Or, well, you can use Accuracy Corrector, but you must spend your focus before anyway

So... you suggest that "if able" in case of Hotshot Co-Pilot prevents the usage of AC, until you fulfill the requirements of "if able" condition? Hmm... Interesting view, but I am not convinced.

But at now, you are completely free to spend that token as you want. Just you MUST spend it (so you can't create a situation that makes it impossible to do, if you can not).

Nope.

Again see the "if able" clause

Are you forced to use Accuracy Corrector? No.

Are you forced to spend that token? Yes.

Can you use accuracy corrector to prevent yourself by spending the token? Nope.

Easy.

Or, well, you can use Accuracy Corrector, but you must spend your focus before anyway

So... you suggest that "if able" in case of Hotshot Co-Pilot prevents the usage of AC, until you fulfill the requirements of "if able" condition? Hmm... Interesting view, but I am not convinced.

Yeah it's a valid reading of the rule. Were you able to spend the Focus during the attack, yes. Does the card say the ship must spend a focus is able, yes. TBH I could see it being ruled either way.

But at now, you are completely free to spend that token as you want. Just you MUST spend it (so you can't create a situation that makes it impossible to do, if you can not).

Nope.

Again see the "if able" clause

Are you forced to use Accuracy Corrector? No.

Are you forced to spend that token? Yes.

Can you use accuracy corrector to prevent yourself by spending the token? Nope.

Easy.

Or, well, you can use Accuracy Corrector, but you must spend your focus before anyway

So... you suggest that "if able" in case of Hotshot Co-Pilot prevents the usage of AC, until you fulfill the requirements of "if able" condition? Hmm... Interesting view, but I am not convinced.

No - quite the opposite

I'm saying that if you use AC and have a focus token you may use AC first and then not spend the token as you do not fulfil the 'if able' condition on the HSCP card.

The way I see it:

-On offense:

1. Ship with HSCP attacks, rolls dice, mods, etc.

2. Defender rolls defense dice.

3. Defender immediately spends focus, modifying eyeballs, even if there are zero.

4. Other modifications happen, if applicable (target lock, etc.)

-On defense:

1. Ship with HSCP is attacked, and the attacker rolls attack dice.

2. Attacker spends focus, even if there are no eyeballs.

3. Attacker modifies dice any other applicable way.

Order it appears to me (and how i will rule until faq)

On Offfense

HSCP attacks

Defender rolls dice

attacker modifies defense dice

defender modifies defense dice (Focus must be spent sometime by the end of this)

On defense

Ship attacks HSCP

Attacker rolls dice

Defender modifies dice

Attacker modifies dice (Focus must be spent sometime by the end of this)

Nowhere does it state "at first given opportunity"

I agree with CJKeys, if the intent was to happen at the beginning of dice mod step, then it would say so on the card.

Since it doesn't, it falls into the rule where a player that triggers multiple effects during the same timing window gets to choose the order.

HSCP would be nigh worthless if it worked like that.

That said, I'll be content waiting for the FFG official ruling, which I think we can all agree, needs to be released SOON.

It's not worthless at all. You're going to make ships with multiple tokens or ships that would not otherwise want to spend their tokens spend them. This means spending them when they have no results to change. Soontir rolls natural for evades or 3 and a blank for AT. He MUST a focus that has no benefit for him. Then, the attacker can use Gunner or another ship can attack Soontir and he doesn't have that focus. Even if he had changed an eyeball with it, he may have not needed to. You can force Poe to spend that life giving focus token so his defense drops and he can't regen with R5P9.

It works exactly like it is written above. And It's Tier 1.

But at now, you are completely free to spend that token as you want. Just you MUST spend it (so you can't create a situation that makes it impossible to do, if you can not).

Nope.

Again see the "if able" clause

Are you forced to use Accuracy Corrector? No.

Are you forced to spend that token? Yes.

Can you use accuracy corrector to prevent yourself by spending the token? Nope.

Easy.

Or, well, you can use Accuracy Corrector, but you must spend your focus before anyway

So... you suggest that "if able" in case of Hotshot Co-Pilot prevents the usage of AC, until you fulfill the requirements of "if able" condition? Hmm... Interesting view, but I am not convinced.

Well, use any ability that force me to bypass Hotshot copilot makes me think about cheating, IF I'm not forced to create that condition.

An errata will explain better the situation. Right now, I think that Hotshot Copilot push yourself to spend a focus token in any case you can do it. That's why it becomes "mandatory", when using Accuracy Corrector (and similar) still free. Maybe is not the case of X-Wing, but in a lot of games, all 'mandatory' condition comes first than other choices.

I think this is the first time in X-WIng that we've had a mandatory condition be able to be rendered impossible by the actions of the same player who is required to fulfil it.

Part of the issue is one of the golden rules.

If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.

Because AC says "cannot" it trumps any effect that instructs you to modify dice. So you cannot spend your focus token after using AC.

That means the only option to deal with the contradiction is to force you to spend your focus token as soon as possible, which as was pointed out means you have to spend it before you can reroll dice with TL.

There is as far as I know, no precedent that says you're not allowed to break a given effect by using another upgrade. Also as far as I know AC and Omega Leader are the only things that lets you ignore the effect from HSCP...

But let me ask this... Does anyone think that there needs to be an FAQ regarding Omega Leader and HSCP? Because that's really the same thing as the interaction with AC. Both cases creates a situation where you cannot spend a focus token.

Maybe is not the case of X-Wing, but in a lot of games, all 'mandatory' condition comes first than other choices.

There is nothing like that in X-Wing.

I think this is the first time in X-WIng that we've had a mandatory condition be able to be rendered impossible by the actions of the same player who is required to fulfil it.

True. On the other hand we had conditions that made illegal situation on the table (Advanced Sensors plus PtL and a Red Maneuver = red with a stress token), though the ruling was much more intuitive in that case (you just screwed yourself man).

Part of the issue is one of the golden rules.

If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.

Because AC says "cannot" it trumps any effect that instructs you to modify dice. So you cannot spend your focus token after using AC.

That means the only option to deal with the contradiction is to force you to spend your focus token as soon as possible, which as was pointed out means you have to spend it before you can reroll dice with TL.

There is as far as I know, no precedent that says you're not allowed to break a given effect by using another upgrade. Also as far as I know AC and Omega Leader are the only things that lets you ignore the effect from HSCP...

But let me ask this... Does anyone think that there needs to be an FAQ regarding Omega Leader and HSCP? Because that's really the same thing as the interaction with AC. Both cases creates a situation where you cannot spend a focus token.

Nah, that's different, because OL works all the time during the attack / defense. HSCP jumps in at a certain point - and that point seems not obvious due to:

1. other abilities that seems to be triggered at the same time, hence you should be able to trigger them in order of your choice; EDIT: and this seems like overpowered in comparison to price of HSCP, as in fact you get little effect and the opponent can use as much of the focus power as possible despite your crew.

2. option to trigger an ability that changes answer to 'Is able?' from Yes to No (which seems not correct).

This means that RAW and RAI seems miles away from each other. That is why HSCP should be FAQ'ed asap...

EDIT: underlined

Part of the issue is one of the golden rules.

If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.

Because AC says "cannot" it trumps any effect that instructs you to modify dice. So you cannot spend your focus token after using AC.

That means the only option to deal with the contradiction is to force you to spend your focus token as soon as possible, which as was pointed out means you have to spend it before you can reroll dice with TL.

There is as far as I know, no precedent that says you're not allowed to break a given effect by using another upgrade. Also as far as I know AC and Omega Leader are the only things that lets you ignore the effect from HSCP...

But let me ask this... Does anyone think that there needs to be an FAQ regarding Omega Leader and HSCP? Because that's really the same thing as the interaction with AC. Both cases creates a situation where you cannot spend a focus token.

Maybe is not the case of X-Wing, but in a lot of games, all 'mandatory' condition comes first than other choices.

There is nothing like that in X-Wing.

Carnor is the only one that DEFINITELY stops it. OL would, but there's no way he can carry a HSCP, so it's a mood point right now, as the HSCP can still force him to spend HIS tokens in defence or attack..

.

Maybe is not the case of X-Wing, but in a lot of games, all 'mandatory' condition comes first than other choices.

There is nothing like that in X-Wing.

That doesn't mean that you can ignore HC mandatory action

Carnor is the only one that DEFINITELY stops it.

Ok you're right and right about OL.

But my point is that we all accept that there are effects out there that prevent another effect from actually having an affect. So I don't see why it's so hard to accept that AC does the same thing.

I mean some people want to twist it so you have to spend the focus token at the first possible opportunity which is IMO anyway contrary to the RAW and RAI, to avoid a very rare case where one upgrade can prevent another upgrade from working.

To me this is no different then how OL prevents the <crit> results from a HLC being converted into <hit> results. It may seem a bit counterintuitive but does match up with the RAW better.

Part of the issue is one of the golden rules.

If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.

Because AC says "cannot" it trumps any effect that instructs you to modify dice. So you cannot spend your focus token after using AC.

That means the only option to deal with the contradiction is to force you to spend your focus token as soon as possible, which as was pointed out means you have to spend it before you can reroll dice with TL.

There is as far as I know, no precedent that says you're not allowed to break a given effect by using another upgrade. Also as far as I know AC and Omega Leader are the only things that lets you ignore the effect from HSCP...

But let me ask this... Does anyone think that there needs to be an FAQ regarding Omega Leader and HSCP? Because that's really the same thing as the interaction with AC. Both cases creates a situation where you cannot spend a focus token.

Maybe is not the case of X-Wing, but in a lot of games, all 'mandatory' condition comes first than other choices.

There is nothing like that in X-Wing.

Carnor is the only one that DEFINITELY stops it. OL would, but there's no way he can carry a HSCP, so it's a mood point right now, as the HSCP can still force him to spend HIS tokens in defence or attack..

Fanatical Devotion will also stop it (on defense). It hasn't been released yet but it has been spoiled so it's likely already seeing some use online.

That doesn't mean that you can ignore HC mandatory action

What's HC?

That doesn't mean that you can ignore HC mandatory action

What's HC?

Hotshot Copilot.

Carnor is the only one that DEFINITELY stops it.

Ok you're right and right about OL.

But my point is that we all accept that there are effects out there that prevent another effect from actually having an affect. So I don't see why it's so hard to accept that AC does the same thing.

I mean some people want to twist it so you have to spend the focus token at the first possible opportunity which is IMO anyway contrary to the RAW and RAI, to avoid a very rare case where one upgrade can prevent another upgrade from working.

To me this is no different then how OL prevents the <crit> results from a HLC being converted into <hit> results. It may seem a bit counterintuitive but does match up with the RAW better.

On the AC one I think both sides have a good enough argument that we won't know the right answer unless it's FAQed.

Carnor is the only one that DEFINITELY stops it.

Ok you're right and right about OL.

But my point is that we all accept that there are effects out there that prevent another effect from actually having an affect. So I don't see why it's so hard to accept that AC does the same thing.

I mean some people want to twist it so you have to spend the focus token at the first possible opportunity which is IMO anyway contrary to the RAW and RAI, to avoid a very rare case where one upgrade can prevent another upgrade from working.

To me this is no different then how OL prevents the <crit> results from a HLC being converted into <hit> results. It may seem a bit counterintuitive but does match up with the RAW better.

How can it be contrary? Hotshot Copilot force you to spend a focus token when attacking/when defending. How and when, you decide. But you can't deny it by yourself, just triggering other abilities, if you have a focus token.

You can use Accuracy Corrector, but that's doesn't block yourself to spend a focus. Even modifying 0 results

You can use Accuracy Corrector, but that's doesn't block yourself to spend a focus. Even modifying 0 results

Per the ruling on Omega Leader and spending focus tokens whilst locked by him and shooting or defending against him, you can't spend focus after using AC - AC makes it impossible to further modify your dice, and the FAQ ruling for OL's ability means you therefore can't spend the token after using AC.

The point at issue is whether you have to spend it beforehand or not.

Hotshot Copilot.

If you're going to throw out an acronym please at least use the one everyone else is, HSCP.

On the AC one I think both sides have a good enough argument that we won't know the right answer unless it's FAQed.

Agreed, I happen to believe that they'll FAQ it so AC stops HSCP, but they may not. I do agree that there is enough merit to the other side to require a FAQ on this.

You can use Accuracy Corrector, but that's doesn't block yourself to spend a focus. Even modifying 0 results

Yes it does. Accuracy Corrector says "Your dice cannot be modified again during this attack." so you cannot spend a focus token on attack dice after using AC. In theory you could still spend it on something else, but there is nothing I can think of that you could spend it on at that point.

Hotshot Copilot.

If you're going to throw out an acronym please at least use the one everyone else is, HSCP.

On the AC one I think both sides have a good enough argument that we won't know the right answer unless it's FAQed.

Agreed, I happen to believe that they'll FAQ it so AC stops HSCP, but they may not. I do agree that there is enough merit to the other side to require a FAQ on this.

You can use Accuracy Corrector, but that's doesn't block yourself to spend a focus. Even modifying 0 results

Yes it does. Accuracy Corrector says "Your dice cannot be modified again during this attack." so you cannot spend a focus token on attack dice after using AC. In theory you could still spend it on something else, but there is nothing I can think of that you could spend it on at that point.

Why you can't spend it before?

You can.

My argument would be that HSCP says you must. Others disagree.

You can.

My argument would be that HSCP says you must. Others disagree.

And between "you can" and "you must"...

In my opinion, I don't need a paragraph on the rulebook, about "mandatory terms", to understand what is mandatory in this game.

Thats part of the problem with tabletop games: if its not specifically called out to work like this, people will warp it to benefit themselves.

HSCP is pretty clear what its intended to do, prevent you from opting out of a focus token use. But because its a unique condition and has no comparison, tons of people question its validity.

If it denied the focus effects entirely, it would be WAY overpowered for 4pts and would be worded "Before rolling dice, you must spend 1 focus token if able" if that were the case. I'd put it above Palpatine if it did that.

You cant spend focus if you cant mod, that much we already known thanks to OL's ruling. AC is an unusual unique situation, im in the boat that says you had a window to spend a focus so you cant use AC until you spend a focus, but i wouldnt really care if it goes the other way since how often does an AC even take a focus? usually they have an evade.

Since FFG has this rather indepth step sequence system now, i wish new cards would just say "At step X" - the same goes for maneuvers, since the amount of people questioning when "after you perform a maneuver" actually happens is rather irritating.

I also question whether AC actually stops the spending of focus. It says that dice can not be modified, but wouldn't this be the same as modifying 0 dice (as none of the dice can be modified? Can you spend a Target Lock is all of your dice have been re-rolled by Zuckuss, even though it would result in 0 dice being able to be re-rolled?

to understand what is mandatory in this game.

There is nothing mandatory about HSCP because it says 'if able' on it, that means if you aren't able to spend a focus token you don't have to.

The whole point is that you can by using AC set up a situation where you are unable to spend the focus token. Some people like SpaceInvader believe that you have to spend the focus token at the first opportunity to do so to avoid the kind of situation like AC sets up.

Myself and others believe that since you can chose when to spend that focus token you are allowed by the rules to set up a situation where you can't do so.

It's really a question of timing, do you have to spend the focus token at the first opportunity or not.

I also question whether AC actually stops the spending of focus. It says that dice can not be modified, but wouldn't this be the same as modifying 0 dice (as none of the dice can be modified? Can you spend a Target Lock is all of your dice have been re-rolled by Zuckuss, even though it would result in 0 dice being able to be re-rolled?

The Omega Leader FAQ states that modifying zero results is still modifying results and you are unable to spend the token if you are not permitted to modify.