Mied, you really want to test that out? I disagree. Its become harder but not impossible.

In the age of flotillas, the mc30 is king.

Sadly I downloaded AVG onto my vassal laptop, and now I appear to have a tonne of issues with that machine... go figure

Mied, you really want to test that out? I disagree. Its become harder but not impossible.

In the age of flotillas, the mc30 is king.

Sadly I downloaded AVG onto my vassal laptop, and now I appear to have a tonne of issues with that machine... go figure

agreed. If you don't go Sensor team scout frigate (as I recall you like Ginkapo), I found out this weekend that a torpedo MC30 with ATP and OE can wipe out a flotilla in one volley.

Mied, you really want to test that out? I disagree. Its become harder but not impossible.

In the age of flotillas, the mc30 is king.

Sadly I downloaded AVG onto my vassal laptop, and now I appear to have a tonne of issues with that machine... go figure

AVG used to be pretty good, but went way downhill 6 or 7 years ago.

And yes, the day of the MC30 is upon us. It has everything you need: survivability against squadrons, quick devastating attacks against carriers, guaranteed accuracies for popping flotillas efficiently, and strong speed/maneuverability to adapt to MSU's. In an era where people seriously think large ships are not viable, the lack of a brace is a very small price to pay.

Mied, you really want to test that out? I disagree. Its become harder but not impossible.

In the age of flotillas, the mc30 is king.

Sadly I downloaded AVG onto my vassal laptop, and now I appear to have a tonne of issues with that machine... go figure

agreed. If you don't go Sensor team scout frigate (as I recall you like Ginkapo), I found out this weekend that a torpedo MC30 with ATP and OE can wipe out a flotilla in one volley.

I'm guessing Sensor Team instead of H9s for cost reasons? The opportunity cost to give up OEs is rough.

I used to run.

Mc30, sensor team, enhanced armanent with ackbar

These days I often run

Mc30, ordnance experts, expanded launchers, h9 turbolasers with mon mothma.

Mied, you really want to test that out? I disagree. Its become harder but not impossible.

In the age of flotillas, the mc30 is king.

Sadly I downloaded AVG onto my vassal laptop, and now I appear to have a tonne of issues with that machine... go figure

agreed. If you don't go Sensor team scout frigate (as I recall you like Ginkapo), I found out this weekend that a torpedo MC30 with ATP and OE can wipe out a flotilla in one volley.

I'm guessing Sensor Team instead of H9s for cost reasons? The opportunity cost to give up OEs is rough.

I agree! Ginkapo if I remember correctly is advocating for that build, but I prefer to keep OE. They really helped in this weekend's tourney. My torpedo frigates had a tendency of getting natural accuracies anyway!

I used to run.

Mc30, sensor team, enhanced armanent with ackbar

These days I often run

Mc30, ordnance experts, expanded launchers, h9 turbolasers with mon mothma.

That's an expensive MC30. Great double arcs, though.

I used to run.

Mc30, sensor team, enhanced armanent with ackbar

These days I often run

Mc30, ordnance experts, expanded launchers, h9 turbolasers with mon mothma.

that's something I should try soon.

I killed in 1 turn a fresh Mon Karren with 2 MC30s that had double arc on turn 2 (the Mon Karren player went cocky and used Engine tech and speed 3 on turn 1). Having activation advantage is a huge plus for these guys!

Mied, you really want to test that out? I disagree. Its become harder but not impossible.

In the age of flotillas, the mc30 is king.

Sadly I downloaded AVG onto my vassal laptop, and now I appear to have a tonne of issues with that machine... go figure

Having played with just Tycho for a while, I won't question your ability to survive in a fighter heavy meta with no fighters at all. However, even you agree that it's became harder to do so, and that's telling. I have one more example, in the form of the topic JJ opened about his experience with cluster bombs: while we can safely assume he's one of the best admirals out there, flying cluster bombs frigate got him the 4th place in the tourney he was playing in, as opposed to winning worlds with Y wing swarm.

As I said, I don't think that this meta shift towards squadrons builds is a bad thing for the game, we just need to accept that the inclusion of some sort of squadron is, if not absolutely mandatory, at least highly recommended right now.

Mied, you really want to test that out? I disagree. Its become harder but not impossible.

In the age of flotillas, the mc30 is king.

Sadly I downloaded AVG onto my vassal laptop, and now I appear to have a tonne of issues with that machine... go figure

Having played with just Tycho for a while, I won't question your ability to survive in a fighter heavy meta with no fighters at all. However, even you agree that it's became harder to do so, and that's telling. I have one more example, in the form of the topic JJ opened about his experience with cluster bombs: while we can safely assume he's one of the best admirals out there, flying cluster bombs frigate got him the 4th place in the tourney he was playing in, as opposed to winning worlds with Y wing swarm.

As I said, I don't think that this meta shift towards squadrons builds is a bad thing for the game, we just need to accepting that the inclusion of some sort of squadron is, if not absolutely mandatory, at least highly recommended right now.

On its own I don't think that's a great example to be honest. Too many other factors go into winning a tournament (matchups for you and other people, etc, etc), that him going from winning outright to 4th isn't that dramatic. I think it would depend more on what JJ himself thought in this instance.

To be completely honest I think the answer right now to the OP post is: YES, squadrons are mandatory (at a competitive level), deal with it.

I'm still stubbornly resisting. And by that I mean gunnery team GSD-IIs combined with a special purpose Instigator-holding Raider and an ISD-II. I still have yet to be definitively convinced all-ship builds are worthless in the face of fighters, but I'm starting to have that sinky feeling.

Thing is as an Empire Player I don't know if I like the archetypes of fighter builds available.

Rhymerball - All Bombers, Rhymer only, maybe throw Ruthless strategists and/or Flight Controllers on a carrier to take out choice fighters. But it's a Rhymerball and everyone does these.

Fighters/Interceptors - Free points for the enemy if they took no fighters since all of that is easy to shoot down.

Rogues/Villains - I don't want to need their scum, and all of their ships are pricier than the Rebels. Where are my Defenders and Phantoms?

Aces ball - Expensive fighter aces which are envious of Rieekan.

At least with a fighter build I can resurrect the VSDs? I'm still not there yet, though once the new fighter pack comes out I might have some incentives to revisit Imperial Fighters. Right now, sitting across the table from the likes of Ten Numb and Shara Bey, I'd rather not field fighters if my opponent will slap any attempt down hard.

Its almost like it was intended that they were limited to 1/3rd from Day one or something....

Lets be fair, the difference in squadrons between merely waves one and two are so significant that they can barely even be compared. Wave 1 to Wave 5 is going to be almost like two entirely different games.

Its almost like it was intended that they were limited to 1/3rd from Day one or something....

Lets be fair, the difference in squadrons between merely waves one and two are so significant that they can barely even be compared. Wave 1 to Wave 5 is going to be almost like two entirely different games.

My two cents on top of this: I think the designers genuinely meant for squadrons to be the **** even in wave 0.

Then, by design or accident, I dunno, it turned out not to be the case. Squads just got lumped together and played no real part in the greater game.

Enter wave 1. FFG tried to make fighters more dynamic. Weird stuff happens. Rhymer. Yavaris. Mithel. Gallant Haven.

You can sense that they really want squads to be important and powerful, but it just ends up being weird. Rhymerballs and A-wing swarms. Angry Bees w/o intel. Meh.

Intel, Rogue and Grit start shaking things up, and squadrons become viable at this point IMO. You can now run credible bomber wings - and investing in AS squadrons becomes a real alternative (almost anyway).

And it continues. So yeah, the 1/3 cap was there for a reason, but it took a couple of years for them to get it right.

I too want to run nothing but 3x ISD with Motti because that sounds like the most fun thing in the world.

Except 3 large-base ships just get in each others way - you'll never get to actively use more than 2.

Panzeh, try something like this as it will give you the ability to still play your large ships and have some pretty good fighter cover against the current bomber scene (if you can play squadrons well):

((Pick the ISD upgrades to your taste... this is just a thing I threw together. Maybe even go Ozzel to get speed a 1-3 speed variance and throw off their "anticipation" positioning for bombers - could be the difference between living/dying from the single Yavaris strike they get before it dies))

396/400

ISD 2 (162) - Admiral Motti (24) - Flight Controllers (6) - ECM - Dual Turbolaser Turrets (5)

ISD 1 (132) - Agent Kallus - OE - QLT - Leading Shots - XI7

Howlrunner (16)

Mauler (15)

Saber Squadron (12)

IG-88 (21)

Soontir (18)

Dengar (20)

Too bad there is no Escort in there.

Its almost like it was intended that they were limited to 1/3rd from Day one or something....

Lets be fair, the difference in squadrons between merely waves one and two are so significant that they can barely even be compared. Wave 1 to Wave 5 is going to be almost like two entirely different games.

My two cents on top of this: I think the designers genuinely meant for squadrons to be the **** even in wave 0.

Then, by design or accident, I dunno, it turned out not to be the case. Squads just got lumped together and played no real part in the greater game.

Enter wave 1. FFG tried to make fighters more dynamic. Weird stuff happens. Rhymer. Yavaris. Mithel. Gallant Haven.

You can sense that they really want squads to be important and powerful, but it just ends up being weird. Rhymerballs and A-wing swarms. Angry Bees w/o intel. Meh.

Intel, Rogue and Grit start shaking things up, and squadrons become viable at this point IMO. You can now run credible bomber wings - and investing in AS squadrons becomes a real alternative (almost anyway).

And it continues. So yeah, the 1/3 cap was there for a reason, but it took a couple of years for them to get it right.

I agree their intention was that even in Wave 0 that squadrons would be the shiznitz, as you say.

The two things I don't think they fully realized at the time was:

1. The...aesthetic/tacticle joy of rolling a fistfull of dice, even if/when you know rolling the same number of dice over multiple attacks works out better for you.

2. That it was harder to push squadrons around than they originally intended.

You know what would be interesting, GK? I should go back and play Wave 0 only, using what I know now of the game, and see how it turns out.

Escort is for protection... defense is for suckers. This squadron list is for attacking & dying quick while dealing damage.

Seriously though, a small tweak gives you Vader over Soontir if you care for such things. Not my flavor though. My escort is Soontir & your choice. I like people taking damage from their own choice. Vader is also better because of ship killing ability (especially if they show up without bombers) but just not as fun for me.

There is a very important difference, and one that will have great significance from wave V onwards.

Squadrons require Intel in order to do ship damage. Ships do not require intel to do ship damage.

Introduce snipe units and suddenly intel becomes a lot harder to protect. In all honesty I am very surprised we havent seen more anti intel squadron builds. IG-88 and Mauler combine very well to target intel units, and once you can add Saber squadron....

To play Devil's Advocate, though, you've now invested 48 points into killing a 12-20 point ship. And you're pretty likely going to die shortly after doing so, negating the need for you opponent to have Intel in the first place. It's a brutal combination for sure, but it's not enough on its own to stop a bomber wing.

Escort is for protection... defense is for suckers. This squadron list is for attacking & dying quick while dealing damage.

Seriously though, a small tweak give you Vader over Soontir if you care for such things. Not my flavor though. My escort is Soontir & your choice. I like people taking damage from their own choice. Vader is also better because of ship killing ability (especially if they show up without bombers) but just not as fun for me.

A squids like mithel does more damage if you can get him to trigger repeatedly.

1. The...aesthetic/tacticle joy of rolling a fistfull of dice, even if/when you know rolling the same number of dice over multiple attacks works out better for you.

I don't think they underestimated this at all. You can roll giant handfuls of dice and do well still, you just have to be smart about how you do it.

The same number of dice over multiple attacks is not always better. It's better against brace and scatter (barring accuracies); less good against evade and redirect.

Escort is for protection... defense is for suckers. This squadron list is for attacking & dying quick while dealing damage.

Seriously though, a small tweak give you Vader over Soontir if you care for such things. Not my flavor though. My escort is Soontir & your choice. I like people taking damage from their own choice. Vader is also better because of ship killing ability (especially if they show up without bombers) but just not as fun for me.

A squids like mithel does more damage if you can get him to trigger repeatedly.

Yes, as does every ship & squadron in the game.

His job is to do 1, maybe 2 damage plus one shot & maybe a counter 1. That is enough for me & he has paid for himself. He is an asset, to be used & thrown away. As is every Imperial squadron. It's my experience that 1 escort will not stop him from dying, just make them spend more time placing their squadrons to kill him.

1. The...aesthetic/tacticle joy of rolling a fistfull of dice, even if/when you know rolling the same number of dice over multiple attacks works out better for you.

I don't think they underestimated this at all. You can roll giant handfuls of dice and do well still, you just have to be smart about how you do it.

The same number of dice over multiple attacks is not always better. It's better against brace and scatter (barring accuracies); less good against evade and redirect.

1. The...aesthetic/tacticle joy of rolling a fistfull of dice, even if/when you know rolling the same number of dice over multiple attacks works out better for you.

I don't think they underestimated this at all. You can roll giant handfuls of dice and do well still, you just have to be smart about how you do it.

The same number of dice over multiple attacks is not always better. It's better against brace and scatter (barring accuracies); less good against evade and redirect.

I didn't say it was always better, though I guess I implied (and was writing under the mental dictate) it was almost always better, and I'd still basically stand by that assertion, especially in light of this topic's overall conceit, which is about squadron attacks.

Most scenarios involving a bunch of single dice attack are coming from squadrons, which are immune to redirects except from MM and/or Admo and are pretty much better against every ship except for Bright Hope. How are fewer dice less good against redirect than more dice are? Rolling 8 dice, you, as the defender always have to work with less information than one big shot, which is essential to strategizing how you want to use your defense tokens.

(attacker) Y-Wing shoots (hit).....(defender) Has 1 shield left on targeted hull zone but 3 on adjacent one. Does he use the redirect knowing the x wing coming up could get a crit (or a double hit), but might also roll a blank? Alternativley, if you were defending against a ship attack that had a black and a red die, you'd know the total result of that attack and could use defense tokens accordingly.

1. The...aesthetic/tacticle joy of rolling a fistfull of dice, even if/when you know rolling the same number of dice over multiple attacks works out better for you.

I don't think they underestimated this at all. You can roll giant handfuls of dice and do well still, you just have to be smart about how you do it.

The same number of dice over multiple attacks is not always better. It's better against brace and scatter (barring accuracies); less good against evade and redirect.

I would disagree with you here. 8 1-die attacks are worse than 1 8-die attack for redirect as well. The only things that is better off vs multiple attacks are evade and Admonition.

Agreed. And Bright Hope.

Ensuring a single accuracy is the most potent effect in the game.

Who would ave thunk that!?

Sigh