It's in the title. Very few lists that have been posted and commented on in the fleet sub forum and very few of the comments have given much credit to this objective. "Don't take it, you'll regret it," has appeared to be the general consensus. I, personally, in all two of the matches that I've seen played with Fleet Ambush, have seen the first player get completely demolished by the second player. Almost embarrassingly.

So this thread is to discuss

a) why the apparent hate, or what are your apprehensions (Rhymerballs are my biggest apprehension)

b) what examples show why this works or doesn't work

c) what do we think would or wouldn't work

With some many squadrons contributing to deployments, as seen at worlds, I would venture to say that fleet Ambush is a good way to manipulate the deployment game, given the requirement to place ships first. I would also think that Demolisher loves this objective, giving him a way to debilitate an enemy ship early on.

Thoughts?

Its because of the apparent mismatch of forces, deployment, and useability...

Yes, you are putting at least one Enemy Ship at Point Blank Range to you.... The flipside is, that ship activates first....

The enemy has the initiative, and quite often, you are handing them a Range Advantage - by letting them position closer... There are some ships that love that very idea... ISD-1s and Victory-1s which otherwise struggle to attack with Black Dice, now find that half of their Job is now done for them... THey don't have to worry about long range engagement, they're there....

Much the same as dedicated Carrier Rhymerballs - you're giving your opponent the opportunity to unleash the first strike.

Coupled with the fact that it is your opponent who is choosing to do it or not... Its going to be rough, because they'll generally find a better advantage elsewhere in your Blue or Red objective - if they don't, well, then they're probably prepared for a kill-them-all and Fleet Ambush allows them to either capitalise on it, with the carrier concept... Or ignore it, by putting something ultimately defensive forward (such as a Flotilla ready to run away)...

Its just an odd concept of a mission - that the people deploying in the Ambush Zone are considered the Ambushees... but more often than not, they're the Ambushers...

The fleet ambush area is much larger than it should be, allowing small ships to find plenty of spaces to deploy with little to fear from the enemy fleet. At the same time, Imagine an MC80 Ackbar broadside supported by 4 b-wings turn one backed by initiative. Or a demolisher that is now behind your ISD and will remain there until the ISD is dead. It generally favors first player very heavily, and unless you have a very specific plan (and hopefully a few G-7's) steer clear of including it as it will always get picked

I am dying to try it with Titus. Stick a ship in the middle, have the owner start it at 1, change it zero speed, pick up ships from floor when opponent flips table after rage quit....

No, seriously. I see it very rarely. I have trouble playing it as second player, because that means a ship will be REALLY close to you starting round 1. I kinda don't mind playing it as first because I tend to play ships that want to be close.

With interdictor in play now, I would love to throw all the objectives in the middle then drop grav wells next to them and a grav token so I can pull all the obst. on top of the ships before they start. Parlor tricks, I know, but amusing non-the-less....

I am dying to try it with Titus. Stick a ship in the middle, have the owner start it at 1, change it zero speed,

... Then have the opponent just dial in a nav anyway to go to Speed 1, since Titus happens before Command dials are set...

It does stop the Carrier-Launch, unless they've got a way to deliver a nav Token... But honestly, they should be prepared for that....

Its all in the Timing.

The card needs to have the following added: "During the first turn the First Player may not activate any ships inside the ambush zone until all ships outside of the ambush zone have been activated."

The problem is you need to be 110% confident that your fleet benefits more from the enemy starting closer to you than the enemy's fleet benefits. And this needs to be for every conceivable matchup you would have. Otherwise, you are giving your opponent an active benefit on top of his benefit for being first player. I love seeing Fleet Ambush when I'm running DeMSU style fleets. I have used it on many occasions to start wiping out enemy ships on turn 1 (Demolisher) and turn 2 (Raiders and the like). You NEVER want one of your objectives to be something the other player is actively happy to see.

The card needs to have the following added: "During the first turn the First Player may not activate any ships inside the ambush zone until all ships outside of the ambush zone have been activated."

I played Fleet Ambush vs 2AF fleet with 2ISD MSU and it was devastating for a second player.

I am dying to try it with Titus. Stick a ship in the middle, have the owner start it at 1, change it zero speed,

... Then have the opponent just dial in a nav anyway to go to Speed 1, since Titus happens before Command dials are set...

It does stop the Carrier-Launch, unless they've got a way to deliver a nav Token... But honestly, they should be prepared for that....

Its all in the Timing.

Well, if you take the TIMING into account....

Honestly, 2 pts to force a single ship to take a nav they were going to take anyway is why he hasn't been in any of my fleets. I'm sure he's sugar for that Interdictor shenanigans though....

I am dying to try it with Titus. Stick a ship in the middle, have the owner start it at 1, change it zero speed,

... Then have the opponent just dial in a nav anyway to go to Speed 1, since Titus happens before Command dials are set...

It does stop the Carrier-Launch, unless they've got a way to deliver a nav Token... But honestly, they should be prepared for that....

Its all in the Timing.

Well, if you take the TIMING into account....

Honestly, 2 pts to force a single ship to take a nav they were going to take anyway is why he hasn't been in any of my fleets. I'm sure he's sugar for that Interdictor shenanigans though....

Yes, and as I said - it certainly stops that "ISD-1 with Boosted and Expanded with a Rhymerball all up in your face turn one Fleet Ambush" system, UNLESS they have Moff Tarkin... because they have to distinctly choose... nav and get defence tokens... Or Squadron and First Strike... Not one and the same...

G7s additionally will assist with said shenanigans - so I do foree Fleet Ambush as a possibility for Interdictor-lead and ptentially even Double-Interdictor fleets, IF you can find a way to capitalise on the Interdictor as a Combat Vessel as well as its standard role as a deployment shenaniganiser...

shenaniganiser...

Why is this not a word already?

shenaniganiser...

Why is this not a word already?

00:12

The card needs to have the following added: "During the first turn the First Player may not activate any ships inside the ambush zone until all ships outside of the ambush zone have been activated."

Even that wouldn't help it really. Once you encounter high-activation fleet, you're likely to be outdeployed and then ISD/Liberty/Demolisher/Yavaris can deploy last, activate last turn 1 while being in Ambush zone and devastate something with first activation round 2.

I played Fleet Ambush vs 2AF fleet with 2ISD MSU and it was devastating for a second player.

Yeah, that is true.

However, none of the missions take into account activation count. So a high activation fleet compared to a low activation fleet will always gain this advantage. So I feel that at some point it isn't the mission here being the problem but it's low activation count compared to it's opponents. So perhaps there is a case for this just being the wrong mission for that pairing.

Flotillas were what made me stop using it ever. Before them it was rarely.

Fleet Ambush is rough on 2 ship fleets or slow fleets. Having cheap ships that get the average # of ships up to around 4 is ending that objective. No more fear of half your fleet being out of position.

I love to see it now as I run squadron heavy fleets most of the time. Gwtting to drop 133 points of Jan+Bombers on their ships turn one is awesome.

The first activation thing can be worked around, and isn't always all that great, especially given that the opponent can't always not tip his hat early on. In 4 ship lists, he either deploys the big hitter a turn early, or he gets set in the background, away from the "ambushees." I've also considered that Rieekan or swarm lists might be great for dealing with this threat. They get 1 shot (or squad command) off to deal with 1 of your ships...then their star player is surrounded by 4+ ships, all that can ram for additional damage, to potentially take out the biggest threat on the first turn. In return, they've taken out 1 of your swarmy ships, maybe 2.

But thank you all for convincing me to definitely not include it in my regionals lists. Haven't played it but once, and don't know how to make it work. Though I imagine Rieekan is alright with that. It just gets really tempting to try something new sometimes, ya know?

It'll definitely get played casually until I can find some trick to making it work. I feel as though it can work psychologically to cause an opponent to overcommit a divided force, and that it is a rare enough objective that most people would get overzealous and mess it up. It's a very different way to start the match, to say the least.

You really have to build to win the Fleet Ambush, and since its probably going to be the least bad of your objectives most of the time, you're likely going to play it a lot. You have to be sure you can win it. I've seen many cases where the opponent simply turned the ambush, so that's a tricky proposition. In almost all of the lists that I've built, I've felt like Contested Outpost, Hyperspace Assault, or Fire Lanes were just better picks for the list. Fire Lanes and CO possibly pick you up points, and when you're looking for big margins, those are attractive objectives. If you don't want to be tied to a position, then Hyperspace Assault feels like a much better positioning objective.

I don't think it is entirely bad, it just needs the right list. Justin took it to the top table of Worlds, and that was a recent adjustment to his list, and one I think for the better, having played him on it a couple of weeks ahead of worlds. I think it worked there because A. It didn't tie the list to a specific spot of the map, and the list does better when it isn't tied to a Contested Outpost and plenty of lists will outgun it on Fire Lanes, and B. The Rieekan blockers significantly limit any attack advantage that the first player might get. C. Any forward carrier deployment and activation will have issues with the Gallant Haven squadrons and counter attack. D. His squadrons were quick enough that when combined with the objectives, they could shut down a wide area of the map and threaten any small ships that were deployed there. That's just one list, and it was a long journey to the point where he took it.

I've messed around with it...

1st Player has a Home One or Gunnery Team Guppy with Ackbar. You take so much damage for free as it scoots away on 1st Activation.

Fleet Ambush would be better if you get to go first on Turn 1.

Eh, Titus does work agai st Fleet Ambush-

I am dying to try it with Titus. Stick a ship in the middle, have the owner start it at 1, change it zero speed,

... Then have the opponent just dial in a nav anyway to go to Speed 1, since Titus happens before Command dials are set...

It does stop the Carrier-Launch, unless they've got a way to deliver a nav Token... But honestly, they should be prepared for that....

Its all in the Timing.

But the ship being ambushed can shoot before the ship can nav up again... No defence tokens is death on smaller ships.

I know because I've killed a Yavaris doing this very thing.

And by "Deliver a Token" I mean, pre-battle...

Specifically, this means Garm or Tarkin.

They enjoy taking the Fleet Ambush objective of an opponent, because they guarantee that they will not only start the game with a Nav Token, but also still be able to dial in what it takes to deal damage to the enemy... Squadron, typically... but occasionally Concentrate Fire...

Everyone else, well, you can do it, but you won't enjoy it as much.

Long story short: it's a huge risk. If you are already going 2nd, you don't want to hit a list that has the tools it needs to really punish you on a first activation as well.

Unless you are 100% confident that won't happen, something else is better.

I took it in my regional fleet and regretted it. Top of turn two admo was missing six shields and a d token.......never again

A well-deployed, well-designed fleet can utterly annihilate this objective as first player. It's a potentially huge liability.

I dabbled in some theorycraft for Fleet Ambush but came to the conclusion that any list that could take sufficient advantage of it would just cause your opponent to pick another objective. The core idea was two Interdictors with G7s, two Gozantis with Slicer Tools and Demolisher. Two G7s completely cover the ambush zone, so everything there gets deployed at speed 0, and at least one of the Gozantis will be able to catch the first player's second ship to slice away their navigate command, leaving them completely open for Demolisher. Of course then you are stuck with two Inderdictors and no fighters and no Contested Outpost since you replaced it with Fleet Ambush.

Edit: If you additionally bring G-8 and Grav Shift, you can move obstacles in front of the speed 0 ships and hold them there for multiple overlaps.

Thats a big gamble that you can lay on the hurt necessary to that sliced ship to make up for the fact that half your points are invested in Interdictors, which can't punch as hard as other ships.

Question: Is it possible to deploy the Gozanti in such a way that you can always hit two ships with the tools?

Not quite. A dead center deployment at speed 3 can can cover most of the ambush zone, to the point that no two large-base ships could be deployed safely. But small and medium bases can squeak by in the far corners (one would be safe). And Interdictors hit a lot harder when you do not have defense tokens. That assumes only two first-player ships in the zone. As soon as there are three, the Gozanti can slice at least two.

An ideal situation for the second player would be something like:

*First player navs Ambush Ship A to speed 1, overlaps an asteroid that was moved in front of it.

*Second player moves a Gozanti up to slice away Ambush B's navigate command.

*First player moves another ship. If he does not nav any remaining Ambush Ships, second player slices it with the second Gozanti.

*Demolisher zooms forward to hit Ambush Ship B.

*G-8 moves up to cover everything in the ambush zone.

*Other ships activate.

Turn 2

*Ambush Ship B navs up to speed 1, overlapping an asteroid that was moved in front of it.

*Gozanti slices away another Ambush Ship B's second navigate command.

*Ambush Ship A navs up to speed 2.

*Demolisher double tap and/or ram.

*Other ships activate, Interdictors get into blue range of anything in the ambush zone.

Turn 3

*Ambush Ship B, if still alive, is stuck at speed 1; G-8 prevents it from moving, so it hits the asteroid again.

Assuming you are using Screed and Demolisher has APT, Ambush Ship B receives up to six unavoidable damage cards (APT, asteroid, APT, APT, ram, ram), half of them face up, by the end of turn 2. That alone is enough to kill anything short of a Victory/MC80. Add in the chance of a Structural Damage and whatever damage Demolisher pushes through normally, and the only thing that might survive to finish its turn 3 activation (another asteroid) is an ISD. Turn 2 the Interdictors will be plinking with a few reds, and the Gozantis will be adding their blues as well.

On a side note, does speed zero disable TRCs or does "cannot speed defense tokens" only apply to defending from an attack?