GrooveChamp said:

Deluge of magic is the truth and the light.

get lots of cards, play 0 cost cards to stall, then use your cultists to run where it is safe and get dial clicks...hilarity ensues.

The Lord of Change upgrade is good when you get no additional warpstone early on in the game, and your original warpstone positions arent the best (eg theyre all in high traffic areas). Lord of Change upgrade allows you to summon him off to a corner somewhere and do your thing. This does mean you are likely a bit behind to start with, but can be effective.

Tzeentch really needs to be very open minded and adaptive to whatever the first few turns reveal. You do need to decide whether to focus on VP or dial early, Id say by the end of turn 2.

I would always discard my entire starting hand of 3 to try and draw temporal stasis for the first turn - its the best way to ensure you at least get off to a solid start.

chunky04 said:

I believe that you cannot discard more than 1 card from your hand... Usually Dazzle gets the axe for me.

FragMaster said:

Correct, and Dazzle should pretty much always be discarded - the sentiment remains - it is almost always useful to discard on the first turn

chunky04 said:

even if you have poor warpstone positions, you can spend 2 points to move the existing warpstone to a better location, and that is cheaper then spending 3 to summon the demon

Melonball said:

You're assuming you already have cultists there. That's at least four points to summon in and out the cultists, more if the warpstone is sparely located. Usually, the cultist upgrade is better - but the Lord of change can be quite useful

phobiandarkmoon said:

If you don't have the cultists in position it costs you 4.

If you don't have the cultists in position with the lord of change it costs you 5

Melonball said:

Not if you have the cultists in place and not the warpstone

But before you get the first upgrade card you get to place a warp stone...so at least 1 has to be where you want it to be, and more than likely you're placing it by or on a place with warpstone you're hanging out on. Why would you ever have two cultists chilling in a space with no rocks?

I played Tzeentch in a four player game yesterday and had a fierce fight for the VP win with Nurgle.

Being able to chuck around that a huge ammount of cultists is what makes Tzeentch a strong contender for a victory in all the games of CitOW we've played so far.

In the end of our yesterdays game we, Tzeentch and Nurgle, both got over the 50 points limit in the very last game turn, but I miserably failed at killing a single un-upgraded Slaanesh cultist with my hastily summoned Greater Demon, thus I wasn't able to halt Slaaneshs' Dial victory in the same turn.

So Slaanesh won, but Tzeentch and Nurgle 'won' their second places. ^.^

Anyway, three of four players ensuring a win condition in the same turn (Khorne VERY tightly behind)... CitOW is such a great game where no one is left behind.

Ah, yeah, and Dazzle sucks major way. It just isn't useful enough for it's two power point cost.

well.. if you could have placed dazzle, you could have denied the thread advancement from slaneesh 100% instead of rolling dice with the lord of change

So Tzeentch finally won his first game in our group, though there was a ton of luck involved. ALL 3 starting warpstone were in the Norsca-Kislev corridor (sheesh), at least one temporal stasis was drawn every turn for the first 3 turns, meteor showers was drawn, and Khorne didn't get his teleport card to gatecrash Tzeentch until turn 5!

Tzeentch was a contender up until the next to last turn in another game, but again 2 starting warpstone in the northern corridor and a temporal stasis every turn.

Tzeentch still struggles in games where he doesn't get lucky with starting token placement and cards. Khorne struggles period in every game (he often has to choose between "policing" one player or trying to win himself, mutually exclusive goals). Nurgle always a moderate contender. Slaneesh is ALWAYS a strong contender to the end. He's like inverse Tzeentch: guaranteed strong contender unless massively screwed by luck (only game he wasn't a contender the starting nobles were in Estalia + Bretonnia and the first two old world cards were Bretonnia Knights and the Grail is Found, crippling his start and lasting most of the game plus not a single "move noble" card all game).

@Turric4n: You're right, Dazzle could have won me the game. Sadly both card slots were already taken before I could react in the given territory. But anyway, now I know what Dazzle is good for. Thank you very much.

Has anyone ever had the deck run out and no one wins? We've never even come close to that happening, even in one game where TWO hopeless players were trying to prevent anyone from winning, no one had scored a double dial tick all game, and a Karl Franz's Decree card came up.

I've had this happen twice now, it was ususally due to a series of Old World card that provided unfavorable conditions for everyone involved and each god playing the others pretty hard.

Our last game would have ended the very next turn, but Slaanesh won by thread dial before that could happen.

"Franz' decree" really can speed up the upcomming end of the game.

GrooveChamp said:

It happened to us in our first game, because I hadn't explained the victory conditions clearly enough to the other players, so nobody really knew to what goals they were playing, and we got Franz's Decree.

Melonball said:

That in itself is a major problem. If this game has one flaw it is that you UST play it with 4 players. Anything less completely upsets the balance of the game. Each god is a perfect balance to the others and a counter so missing one leaves a major gap in power.

I would be curious to see how many people that have issues with certain powers are playing three player games?

When all four are played and you have 2-3 games under your belt the game is about making the correct decision at the moment and nothing to do with blind luck. Even the worst setup can yield high end results if you understand how your power is to be played.

Baenre said:

If you honestly haven't seen Tzeentch win across 100 games, your group of players is doing something very wrong or you could be playing with some crucial rules being broken.

Tzeentch will thrive in the hands of a player that likes to mess with other players and every card in their deck has its uses. While the warpstone travel power is strong, I don't think it's automatically the first power you should take. Old World cards can greatly effect the board. If warpstones are abundant, another power might be a better option first (I'd say that the cultist upgrade should be taken at some point before the end though).

The only upgrade that I consider automatic is Slaanesh's 2 defense cultists. It's just going to be too strong to deny, no matter your position Everyone else is situational based on old world cards and board setup. There are clear favorites but every other god has at least 2 upgrades where I'd say I'd take 1 in a certain situation and another on a different board.

Considering Dazzle can shut down dial advancements for Nurgle and Slaanesh, I don't see the uselessness. 2 points is steep (and feels costly compared to some other dial-stopping cards like Khorne's no corruption card or Slaanesh's soporific musk which is also beneficial to the user) but it's the perfect card for the right moment. Tzeentch with its array of 0, 1 cards, and drain power tends to be going while other players have 0'd out very often.

The early game is crucial. Having a teleport in your array of cards is paramount. Keep in mind that you can release 1 of the first 3 cards you take and grab a replacement. That gives you an array of 6 cards to look at. If Slaanesh is an issue, waiting out Khorne's first placement (not a very hard thing to do) and pushing him to Slaanesh and away from yourself when it's possible is a very viable play. Comparably, you could move Slaanesh into a bad corner (there will only be 2 noble tokens at this point in the game) or Nurgle into the Badlands where he'll have to work his way back towards the populous regions. Being flexible and aware of a possible blood frenzy or other powers is also important. Tzeentch has a few other cards that will possibly allow you to choose the directions of your enemies which could set the tone for the whole game.

Slaanesh's 2 defense cultists were brought up as overpowering. Nurgle has a card that drops the defense of cultists/warriors by 1. There are a plethora of cards that shut down corruption as well. The game isn't about singular survival/improvement of yourself. It's about outplaying all 3 other gods at the same time. If Khorne is nearly guaranteed a dial turn (a strong Khorne play might be to load a region where Slaanesh is loaded), why wouldn't Nurgle want to see Slaanesh's cultists suffering? Pre-emptively playing this card can also send Khorne away from Nurgle and towards Slaanesh if Slaanesh is in a powerful position (a smart Khorne player would want to hurt a Slaanesh in this position).

Cultists that drag around warpstones for Tzeentch mean that you're ruining regions with less corruption required. Timing ruinations is vital to anyone looking for a VP victory. Tzeentch is one of the most powerful forces at turning a seemingly untouched region into dust late in the game.

If your players are all about direct confrontation or holing up and only using cards to defend and/or empower themselves then yes, Tzeentch will probably play like garbage. Many of the cards and powers in this game are about forcing players to not play this way. Those that continue to do so will lose.

I don't see how Tzeentch could realistically win or lose.

Tzeentch has won a fair share of games in my gaming round. The sheer amount of cultists, the 'uber-bad' Chaos cards and the ability to adapt to every enemies move makes Tzeentch a strong contender to any game of CitOW.

In my opinion, no god stands out - the game is really well balanced.

Hello I registered specifically to say this.

I read this thread yesterday before buying and playing my first game. In our first game Tzeentch won. That is, the test game so you all learn the rules and follow the instruction manual clearly, and Tzeentch won.

What happened was he had the lowest threat, drew an old world card and it was the Meteor shower card. So I placed the warp stones in the regions and in the following turn placed chaos cards that have magic symbols in these same regions with the warpstones. Placing 2 cultists in these regions gave me 2 advancements on my dial after the first turn was completed. And so it was, more warp stones get placed, more corruption and so on. It was a fairly easy win THOUGH I did not have the Khorne player fighting me so often and the Nurgle player was on 40 points, I think he would have won had the game lasted a further turn.

So, now to read more threads and find out information.

TooNu said:

Just to be clear, you didn't advance the dial for every 2 cultists per 2 warpstone/magic symbols area right?

You gain a token for each of these not a dial advancement.