What if the judge is the one giving your opponent advice on how to beat you...?

Wow, thats scaled quickly.

Look, I'm not saying that a judge/marshall can't call rules mistakes here, and that a cheating player must go undisturbed and etc.

Far from it.

First there's tiers of tournaments.
The later two ones, players are EXPECTED to be good with rules. Me and my oponent.

Sure, mistakes can happen, specially after four or more hours of play.
It's my responsability to follow all the rules, should I make a honest mistake, it's my oponent responsability to call me on it.

Simple. Like. That.

If I break a rule intentionally that's cheating. And even if there's a enormous grey area, there's still the black area of altering dials (you can't say you forgot that you shouldn't do that, can you?).

Remember, the judge/marshall is a spectator until they actively say "ok, i'm using my power as so"

Of course, In a event, in the final cuts, I see no problem if a judge/marshall say
"Hey guys, its been a long day. So, I'm using my power as a Judge/Marshall to follow your game, so I can help any mandatory triggers that you both may forgot, okay?"

Now, in no way, I see that spectators should do something. It can go really bad.
Players make mistakes. So do the audience. He can misread the situation, call a TO, disrupt the entire flow, for nothing.

It's both players responsability. That means, you can call a judge after the game and blame him that he did not call rules mistakes.

The ball is in your player court. Deal with it.
You caught your oponent in a rules mistake. Call him on it. Is there a dispute? Call a judge. Still blurry? Call the marshall.

easy like that.


of course, the rules can be improved. Sure. But is that what we want to discuss too?

It opens up no line to coaching players. There is a clear difference between "you must take the stress because you shot at Rebel Captive" and "you probably don't want to take stress, so I wouldn't shoot at Rebel Captive." The line is clear, and it's disingenuous to claim otherwise.

Players should want to play by the rules. Players should want to be informed if they are not playing by the rules.

There is exactly one -- and only one -- reason for a player to not want to be informed if he is breaking the rules.

The current spectator rule actively encourages and facilitates rule-breaking. It literally forbids action that would lessen rule-breaking. It does that now and unambiguously.

The argument in favor of the rule is, "Changing it might lead to abuse." It's a ridiculous argument, and the funniest thing is that it's a ridiculous argument even if it turned out to be true. (Which, of course, it would not.)

Except that you now have to have a judge determine what a conversation is. Much like with dice in Netrunner, just make things simple for the judge. No interaction with spectators at all.

The ball is in your player court. Deal with it.

You caught your oponent in a rules mistake. Call him on it. Is there a dispute? Call a judge. Still blurry? Call the marshall.

easy like that.

Okay, that's a good place to start. So let's ask some questions.

(1) Who is more likely to be caught in a rules mistake, an experienced player or a newer player?

(2) Who is more likely to be comfortable calling an opponent out on a (suspected or real) rules mistake, an experienced player or a newer player?

(3) So who does the current rule favor, experienced players or newer players?

(4) Who is more likely to object to a rules mistake being noted by a spectator, someone who is breaking the rules deliberately, or someone who is doing it accidentally?

(5) So who does the current rule favor, deliberate rule-breakers, or accidental rule-breakers?

X-Wing is changing, and this thread is a perfect example of why and how. It used to be a game in which cooperation in learning and knowing the rules was encouraged and important, in everything from casual League play to Worlds.

Now it's a game where people openly and voiciferously argue for rules that umambiguously favor experienced players and deliberate rule-breakers.

It's pretty amazing. Like I said earlier, the world is ******' upside-down.

of course, the rules can be improved. Sure. But is that what we want to discuss too?

Sure. That's what I am discussing. The spectator-gag rule is a terrible rule. It should be changed.

The ball is in your player court. Deal with it.

You caught your oponent in a rules mistake. Call him on it. Is there a dispute? Call a judge. Still blurry? Call the marshall.

easy like that.

Okay, that's a good place to start. So let's ask some questions.

(1) Who is more likely to be caught in a rules mistake, an experienced player or a newer player?

(2) Who is more likely to be comfortable calling an opponent out on a (suspected or real) rules mistake, an experienced player or a newer player?

(3) So who does the current rule favor, experienced players or newer players?

(4) Who is more likely to object to a rules mistake being noted by a spectator, someone who is breaking the rules deliberately, or someone who is doing it accidentally?

(5) So who does the current rule favor, deliberate rule-breakers, or accidental rule-breakers?

X-Wing is changing, and this thread is a perfect example of why and how. It used to be a game in which cooperation in learning and knowing the rules was encouraged and important, in everything from casual League play to Worlds.

Now it's a game where people openly and voiciferously argue for rules that umambiguously favor experienced players and deliberate rule-breakers.

It's pretty amazing. Like I said earlier, the world is ****** upside-down.

of course, the rules can be improved. Sure. But is that what we want to discuss too?

Sure. That's what I am discussing. The spectator-gag rule is a terrible rule. It should be changed.

Yes, X-Wing is changing. It's getting bigger and more and more people are getting involved with it. On one hand, that means we're more likely to attract deliberate cheaters. I think that's the part you're currently hung up on, Jeff. I understand that concern and it is a valid and real concern.

However, I just don't see how you open the game up to spectator comments about rules while keeping the lid on other extraneous comments. Maybe you've got an amazing ability to concentrate, but I would find it jarring if someone was standing over the table reminding me of every little thing. Take the clean-up step, for example. Have you ever accidentally left your focus token by the ship at the end of the round? And then you get to ship activation and you notice it's there, so you take it off or you say, "Oops, this should have been removed, but I'm focusing again this round." No harm, no foul. Do you really want some high-minded spectator standing there the whole time and saying, "Excuse me, you need to remove that focus token during the clean-up step." I don't know about you, but I would find that extremely distracting for no real benefit. Besides, we're smart people. It's not hard to track someone's actions and figure out that there is an extra token there later in the round, so I don't think we need spectators playing police.

Another example involves missed opportunities. Let's say you're at a formal tournament (and I'm using "formal" as an official type of FFGOP tournament). Two players are playing a game with swarms. During the beginning of the game, before engagement, both players feel it is easier to move all the ships (they're all the same Pilot Skill) and then place focus tokens after movement. According to the FAQ, at formal and premier tournaments, this is not acceptable. After moving a ship, if you go to the next ship, you have forfeited your chance to take an action. However, the tournament rules state that if there is a missed opportunity, you can't take that missed action without consent of your opponent, implying that you can take the action if you have your opponent's consent. So these players are playing by that rule for the first two or three rounds of the game. However, a spectator sees this and the spectator does not like when people move multiple ships and then perform actions. He sees it as 100% against the rules. If he were playing, he would not consent to let the other player move all his ships and then take actions with them. Well in this scenario, spectator table-talk is okay, so this guy starts telling the players they're doing it wrong and starts an argument about movement and actions. The players become flustered by his interference into their game that was going perfectly well. The spectator has now interfered with the mental state of the players and wasted precious time in their round (since we know swarm vs. swarm can be quite the slog). If we just have a blanket statement that spectators cannot interact with players, we eliminate situations like these.

I just don't see how you prevent conversations like the hypothetical one I presented above if you open the whole tournament up to spectator comments. In most cases it isn't necessary nor is it helpful. I believe that most games happen without major rules violations and that in games where mistakes are made, the players catch the mistake and repair the error with no need of external help. Therefore, the harm you cause to games by introducing external influences is greater than any harm you may prevent by fixing mistakes by the nature of unnoticed mistakes being relatively rare, especially in premier tournaments.

I do want to say a word about relaxed tournaments. I would have no problem with spectator talk in relaxed tournaments as long as that was made clear at the start of the tournament. I think relaxed tournaments are a good way for new players to experience a tournament setting while still getting helpful rules clarifications from experienced players during matches. The focus at these tournaments is on fun and learning, rather than a test of skill.

In summary, yes, I do want to stop cheaters. Yes, they bother me. But are they really all that common? And are they common enough that it's worth compromising the concentration of players with spectator talk just so we can catch a few cheaters? The only way I could envision enacting a rule that allows spectator input would be to create a list of specific instances of rule-breaking that are approved for spectator comment. If your comment on the game state is on that list, you can say it. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut. That sounds rather absurd to me, though. Is that what you want to see, Jeff? Because barring that, I just don't know how you say, "You can say some things as a spectator, but not others."

This current system is open to abuse it's crazy.

How so? If you see something being done wrong go inform the TO/Judge so they can fix it. How exactly is this open for abuse?

What if a person whose desire to win is so great they bend the rules against a new player who has no idea?

Go inform the TO/Judge

why are you so upset that I pointed out rules violations?

Because it's not up to you to do that, if I don't know you how do I know you even know the rules? Why should I listen to you rather than the Judge whose job it is, is to know and enforce the rules?

How exactly do people not get that it's up to the TO to enforce the rules and not them?

Edit; and as someone who spends a fair amount of time answering questions on the Rules forms, I can say that the average person really does not have a strong enough grasp of the rules to interject because odds are fairly good that they don't actually understand the rule in the first place.

Would you pause your game in a 120 person tournament to wait for a TO to have come to clarify a possible rules violation. It is quite arrogant to think that no one knows the rules as good as you. People read and people keep up to date with the FAQ, but not everyone of course.

Yes absolutely. If you are in a tournament and you require a TO, you stop, call out for the TO or raise your hand for the TO and wait until they show up. If you spot something wrong you let the TO know. Under no circumstances do you interrupt the game in progress that is absolutely no business of yours regardless of what infraction you see. As I said in my first post in this thread(post # 3) Alex Davy(I'm sure you all know who he is - Xwing game designer) saw a player on the stream he was commentating on perform an illegal attack out the back arc of a vcx after it had deployed the phantom. He did nothing and they didn't even go inform a judge.

What some of you fail to understand is that if spectators were allowed to interfere, this could actually be used to cheat to throw off the concentration of the player(s).

I'll give you an example. I was playing at a nationals recently and my son(who also plays - we both made the top cut at nationals) saw my opponent did something against the rules while I wasn't looking. He quietly went over to the TO/judge and informed him of it. The TO then came over and watched the game for a bit to see what had happened and if it would happen again. My son did not interfere in the game and he did know me. He did the right thing. Did my opponent cheat or was it an accident? I don't know and I'll never know. Only he knows. Regardless, I'm glad my son didn't interrupt the game and went to the judge to inform him.

Edit to add that the game this happened on was my Top 8 game and I lost it.

So your son could have told you both when it happened you could have either resolved an honest mistake or called the TO over to correct the issue, instead your son told the TO nothing happened your opponent got away with either cheating or playing the game wrong and you lost the game in a top 8 at nationals? WTF you literally just used a situation where someone was observed cheating and was allowed to do so and win the game at a national event as your example of why the current rules work well?

Am i taking crazy pills?

In summary, yes, I do want to stop cheaters. Yes, they bother me. But are they really all that common? And are they common enough that it's worth compromising the concentration of players with spectator talk just so we can catch a few cheaters? The only way I could envision enacting a rule that allows spectator input would be to create a list of specific instances of rule-breaking that are approved for spectator comment. If your comment on the game state is on that list, you can say it. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut. That sounds rather absurd to me, though. Is that what you want to see, Jeff? Because barring that, I just don't know how you say, "You can say some things as a spectator, but not others."

Its not about catching cheaters really, its about catching honest mistakes people make before they affect the game or the rest of the tournament. Unless you are trying to pull a fast one on someone i would assume you would welcome someone notice when you took an action while stressed without realizing it or what not.

Spectator involvement can be good if a player is intentionally cheating or both players are just significantly misplaying something in a way that majorly affects their game and suggests that they don't understand the rules and it might be a factor in future games against other players. however, both of these situations can also be resolved by either talking to a TO, talking to the player(s) after the match is over, or just letting their future opponents correct them if it becomes a issue in another game.

On the other side, you could easily have a match where both players are playing correctly and a spectator who does not understand the rules or situation starts to make a fuss about it, and it turns into a big scene over nothing.

It's much simpler and easier to just for everyone else to default to minding their own business while the match is playing. Sort it out afterwards or get a TO if it's something major.

Misplaying and cheating are not the same thing but when an unauthorized 3rd party gets involved it can easily look like an immediate accusation of the latter.

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Just wanna share something that happened earlier this year at my country's national tournament.

At start of tournament, all spectators were remained to remain silent. Not even a "good move" comment.

Semi-finals, I was up against one of the best x-wing players since wave 1, he was a mentor to many players.

Myself, just a recent beginner lucky enough to make it this far.

At a point in the game, my opponent made an attack and his ship had the predator upgrade. And he forgot to use it.

I chose not to say anything.

Hell, even the TO sitting right next to our table didn't say anything.

For a premier level tournament, it isn't just about spectators' behavior, its about all of us upholding the rules.

The FFG rule, by contrast, is designed to allow cheating.

And VanorDM's response is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that the current spectator rules in X-Wing are designed to encourage cheating.

You really need to go and look up the definition of "design".

So, then, I actually have a good question for all those out in never never land. I'll use the bomb example.

Player A has been dropping two bombers per round for the past 3 games. His opponent in any of these games don't use bombs and are not aware of the rule. He has won his past 2 games because of this. Player B, a table mate on his side notices. Let's a TO know. The TO spectators for a few rounds, but due to board state no bombs were placed due to bad timing and because outside of that rule error he has no actual reason to interrupt. the TO is pulled away from the game. Player A drops bombs finally (let's say his last from extra munitions). Securing the win.

Next round starts. Player A is able to squeeze out a win but only drops one bomb at a time due to board state. TO was able to watch most of this game, but due to no rules being broken the TO left the game as is.

Final round begins of swiss. Player A is now playing player B. With player As third round opponent next to him. Player A tried to drop two bombs in a round. Player B now informs him that it is against the rules. Player A is flabbergasted, he was unaware. Now player A wants to concede due to knowing he got how far he was due to cheating and no one told him. Player A's third round opponent now also feels cheated due to his lower placement because of this.

Because no rules were broken while the TO was around, he didn't disrupt player As game. Now the whole tournament has been affected due to this error.

How would you proceed? Was player A due for a tournament win by winning by not knowing the rules? Should the TO be to blame because he was unable to disrupt game play due to no questions asked by the players in the previous games? Should player B be held accountable by player A because he knew he watched him do this in a earlier game? I know this is all speculation but hey, it's a exercise.

I know how most will answer, but thing is, if player B said a quick 5 second,"hey you can't drop two bombs" this could of been avoided, and damage done minimalized.

My honest opinion, if you are in Swiss rounds and you see someone do something like that, I would rather have the players know and have the offending player get angry at me. Worst case they ask a judge over for clarification. If it requires a warning to me not to do it again, I'll take the warning. If the TO decides it was worth me being DQed, so be it. Most likely if it was such a time sink, any TO worth their grain of salt would give the game an extension due to time wasted. And I would know that at least the tournament as a whole won't be affected due to miss play.

As my own antidotal evidence, a table mate of a buddy knew they were scoring wrong at the end of the game and didn't say anything till later, but due to incorrect scoring, my buddy didn't make the cut to the top. The TOs weren't willing to change due to the info not being given till the end of the tournament. So, to me, that AFFECTS the WHOLE tournament. So many people are looking at this in vacuum of just that single game.

So, then, I actually have a good question for all those out in never never land. I'll use the bomb example.

Player A has been dropping two bombers per round for the past 3 games. His opponent in any of these games don't use bombs and are not aware of the rule. He has won his past 2 games because of this. Player B, a table mate on his side notices. Let's a TO know. The TO spectators for a few rounds, but due to board state no bombs were placed due to bad timing and because outside of that rule error he has no actual reason to interrupt. the TO is pulled away from the game. Player A drops bombs finally (let's say his last from extra munitions). Securing the win.

Next round starts. Player A is able to squeeze out a win but only drops one bomb at a time due to board state. TO was able to watch most of this game, but due to no rules being broken the TO left the game as is.

Final round begins of swiss. Player A is now playing player B. With player As third round opponent next to him. Player A tried to drop two bombs in a round. Player B now informs him that it is against the rules. Player A is flabbergasted, he was unaware. Now player A wants to concede due to knowing he got how far he was due to cheating and no one told him. Player A's third round opponent now also feels cheated due to his lower placement because of this.

Because no rules were broken while the TO was around, he didn't disrupt player As game. Now the whole tournament has been affected due to this error.

How would you proceed? Was player A due for a tournament win by winning by not knowing the rules? Should the TO be to blame because he was unable to disrupt game play due to no questions asked by the players in the previous games? Should player B be held accountable by player A because he knew he watched him do this in a earlier game? I know this is all speculation but hey, it's a exercise.

I know how most will answer, but thing is, if player B said a quick 5 second,"hey you can't drop two bombs" this could of been avoided, and damage done minimalized.

My honest opinion, if you are in Swiss rounds and you see someone do something like that, I would rather have the players know and have the offending player get angry at me. Worst case they ask a judge over for clarification. If it requires a warning to me not to do it again, I'll take the warning. If the TO decides it was worth me being DQed, so be it. Most likely if it was such a time sink, any TO worth their grain of salt would give the game an extension due to time wasted. And I would know that at least the tournament as a whole won't be affected due to miss play.

As my own antidotal evidence, a table mate of a buddy knew they were scoring wrong at the end of the game and didn't say anything till later, but due to incorrect scoring, my buddy didn't make the cut to the top. The TOs weren't willing to change due to the info not being given till the end of the tournament. So, to me, that AFFECTS the WHOLE tournament. So many people are looking at this in vacuum of just that single game.

What is odd in your scenario is that at no point did anybody point out the rule in-between games, to anybody. Have the TO make a quick rules clarification to the room, or a quiet word with the player in question.

What you've created is a scenario of trying to catch somebody at it so you can punish them, rather than one of educating everyone where the problem would be easily solved.

What you've created is a scenario of trying to catch somebody at it so you can punish them, rather than one of educating everyone where the problem would be easily solved.

Or let's add to it then, the TO asks the opposing player of game 5 if player A did such so that he would have a witness, but due to that exact game not being one where it happened, that player says no.

I'm not trying for a perfect example, I'm giving a what if of a course that might happen. It most likely has a few holes here and there, which I wouldn't be surprised of cause it was written in the time span of 5 minutes on my lunch.

So, then, I actually have a good question for all those out in never never land. I'll use the bomb example.

Player A has been dropping two bombers per round for the past 3 games. His opponent in any of these games don't use bombs and are not aware of the rule. He has won his past 2 -

Stop. Rewind.

"His opponent in any of these games don't use bombs and are not aware of the rule."

The tournament rules clearly state that at mid to high level events players should know the rules. How low a level tournament is this if two opponents in a row are unfamiliar with bombs?

Final round begins of swiss. Player A is now playing player B. With player As third round opponent next to him. Player A tried to drop two bombs in a round. Player B now informs him that it is against the rules. Player A is flabbergasted, he was unaware. Now player A wants to -

Stop. Rewind.

Player A, the player who brought a bomb list to a tournament high enough to have the tournament rules in full enforcement, doesn't know how bombs work? Despite playing a heavily bomb based list?

Even in this unrealistic situation there are easy solutions that Player B avoids. Player B never points out to the TO that a double bomb is going on. B never mentions it to A after the game. If B geniunely wanted to help A he had plenty of opportunities to, the problem here is that B pulls a PGS and waits to point out the violation until he can benefit most from it.

Does anyone actually have a real example of spectator interference being against the rules causing a problem or is this a thread of flawed hypothetical versus flawed hypothetical?

Stop rewind, I've had people at both regionals and worlds not know that you can't pre measure or measure from multiple ships during combat. So this is far from being unrealistic. Also, player B in the example DOES tell the TO, but sadly the TO doesn't see the problem. Thus no evidence. But see as is, you are now blaming B because he didn't tell the players after the game, what if he forgot or had to use the restroom in between rounds? And since people here saying he hlcant interrupt the game because he is a spectator. Thus making him unable to.

Also I included a real life example of something that happened in a tournament.

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I think that is the key point.

Spectators, a lot of times, don't know the rules better than your average player. Because, and this is the important part, they are mostly average players.

I have had spectators try and correct me on rules in tournaments. For example one douchenozzle tried to tell my opponent they could put out three stress with a stress hog. WHILE I WAS RUNNING A STRESS HOG MYSELF. What it caused was a 10-12 minute break, 5 minutes of me telling him "dude, you're wrong. I play this list 4-5 times a week here are the rules". Then him going to get a judge, and then arguing with the judge that he was right. That cost me 10-12 minutes in a tournament with a list that needs time to win. Ended up getting a mod with a couple hull left on my opponents ship. If he had gone to a judge and said what was happening there would have been 0 interruption to our game. Instead his interruption possibly cost me 2 points.

Now, I know that people here are great with the rules. But you have to remember that the vast majority of players and spectators are not forum goers or even that proficient in X-Wing. Fantasy Flight Games does not make rules with us in mind.

If you feel that strongly that you should be able to be correcting other's mistakes and catch cheaters, then be a judge.

This current system is open to abuse it's crazy.

How so? If you see something being done wrong go inform the TO/Judge so they can fix it. How exactly is this open for abuse?

What if a person whose desire to win is so great they bend the rules against a new player who has no idea?

Go inform the TO/Judge

why are you so upset that I pointed out rules violations?

Because it's not up to you to do that, if I don't know you how do I know you even know the rules? Why should I listen to you rather than the Judge whose job it is, is to know and enforce the rules?

How exactly do people not get that it's up to the TO to enforce the rules and not them?

Edit; and as someone who spends a fair amount of time answering questions on the Rules forms, I can say that the average person really does not have a strong enough grasp of the rules to interject because odds are fairly good that they don't actually understand the rule in the first place.

Would you pause your game in a 120 person tournament to wait for a TO to have come to clarify a possible rules violation. It is quite arrogant to think that no one knows the rules as good as you. People read and people keep up to date with the FAQ, but not everyone of course.

Yes absolutely. If you are in a tournament and you require a TO, you stop, call out for the TO or raise your hand for the TO and wait until they show up. If you spot something wrong you let the TO know. Under no circumstances do you interrupt the game in progress that is absolutely no business of yours regardless of what infraction you see. As I said in my first post in this thread(post # 3) Alex Davy(I'm sure you all know who he is - Xwing game designer) saw a player on the stream he was commentating on perform an illegal attack out the back arc of a vcx after it had deployed the phantom. He did nothing and they didn't even go inform a judge.

What some of you fail to understand is that if spectators were allowed to interfere, this could actually be used to cheat to throw off the concentration of the player(s).

I'll give you an example. I was playing at a nationals recently and my son(who also plays - we both made the top cut at nationals) saw my opponent did something against the rules while I wasn't looking. He quietly went over to the TO/judge and informed him of it. The TO then came over and watched the game for a bit to see what had happened and if it would happen again. My son did not interfere in the game and he did know me. He did the right thing. Did my opponent cheat or was it an accident? I don't know and I'll never know. Only he knows. Regardless, I'm glad my son didn't interrupt the game and went to the judge to inform him.

Edit to add that the game this happened on was my Top 8 game and I lost it.

So your son could have told you both when it happened you could have either resolved an honest mistake or called the TO over to correct the issue, instead your son told the TO nothing happened your opponent got away with either cheating or playing the game wrong and you lost the game in a top 8 at nationals? WTF you literally just used a situation where someone was observed cheating and was allowed to do so and win the game at a national event as your example of why the current rules work well?

Am i taking crazy pills?

I'm not saying they work well but this is just a game. If someone feels so desperate that they have to cheat then I really feel sorry for them more than anything else. These are just little plastic ships modeled on an imaginary universe FFS.

It could have been construed that my son said it to have the other player disqualified because he is my son rather than what he saw. There is always another day to play.

The spectator rule in this game is good. Cheaters are bad. With that said, not all mistakes are evidence of cheating either.

I lost my Top 8 game cause my red dice failed me and not because my opponent may have cheated. There will be other tournaments.

Preventing comments from spectators has nothing to do with letting cheaters get away with it. I mean, if you are so intent that everyone is cheating then why are you playing at all? THIS IS JUST A GAME BETWEEN 2 PEOPLE. Mistakes happen. Opportunities are missed. Get over it. Who made the spectator any kind of authority on anything? Armchair quarterbacks are useless.

Also to provide another example - spectators are not TOs, and often don't have the qualification to be a TO.

Similar to how an ordinary citizen is not a policeman, and should not try to do police work. He could be even punished by the law if he tries to police somebody...

Whilst average Joe citizen is not a policeman, they do know the law. There is also a thing called citizens arrest. To bring this back to nerd terms, you don't need to be a TO to know the law.

I have been in tournaments where someone has tried to use a HLC from Kaths rear arc, someone didn't know that Poes ability worked every time he was shot at whilst he had a focus token, real basic stuff. I informed the guy that he could still use Poes ability again if he wanted. But if I was some jerk player and didn't let him know, because it was his 5th game or something and he was learning and was ignorant, I would have expected someone let the guy know his options. If your need to win is so great that winning at any cost in a inconsequential space ship game, then maybe this game isn't for you. I am flabbergasted that people would rather see rules violations than say a quick, that is illegal, to make for a fair game.

Actually, the average Joe really doesn't have a great grasp on the law. Sure they know the big stuff, but they don't know the nuances. That is why when you see something you think is illegal, you call the cops/TO.

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Also to provide another example - spectators are not TOs, and often don't have the qualification to be a TO.

Similar to how an ordinary citizen is not a policeman, and should not try to do police work. He could be even punished by the law if he tries to police somebody...

Whilst average Joe citizen is not a policeman, they do know the law. There is also a thing called citizens arrest. To bring this back to nerd terms, you don't need to be a TO to know the law.

I have been in tournaments where someone has tried to use a HLC from Kaths rear arc, someone didn't know that Poes ability worked every time he was shot at whilst he had a focus token, real basic stuff. I informed the guy that he could still use Poes ability again if he wanted. But if I was some jerk player and didn't let him know, because it was his 5th game or something and he was learning and was ignorant, I would have expected someone let the guy know his options. If your need to win is so great that winning at any cost in a inconsequential space ship game, then maybe this game isn't for you. I am flabbergasted that people would rather see rules violations than say a quick, that is illegal, to make for a fair game.

If you did that at a tournament I was TO'ing at you'd get warned and if you continued you'd be DQ'd and sent out of the store. Why do you think it is your duty to interfere in someone else's game? They may or may not know the rules. It is their game and they will figure it out in time anyway.

A fair game is a game where no outside forces interfere with it. See what I did there.

This has absolutely nothing to do with rules violations at all, never mind if they were intentional or not. Go look at the stream from worlds where Alex Davy - you know, the guy who designed this game and helps make the rules, kept silent after watching a vcx fire out of the rear arc without the phantom docked. This was on a Twitch for everyone to see and a top cut game at Worlds.

Do you walk around budding in people's arguments randomly on the street cause you think you are right and you don't want anyone to get away with anything?

Your justification is ludicrous.

Also to provide another example - spectators are not TOs, and often don't have the qualification to be a TO.

Similar to how an ordinary citizen is not a policeman, and should not try to do police work. He could be even punished by the law if he tries to police somebody...

Whilst average Joe citizen is not a policeman, they do know the law. There is also a thing called citizens arrest. To bring this back to nerd terms, you don't need to be a TO to know the law.

I have been in tournaments where someone has tried to use a HLC from Kaths rear arc, someone didn't know that Poes ability worked every time he was shot at whilst he had a focus token, real basic stuff. I informed the guy that he could still use Poes ability again if he wanted. But if I was some jerk player and didn't let him know, because it was his 5th game or something and he was learning and was ignorant, I would have expected someone let the guy know his options. If your need to win is so great that winning at any cost in a inconsequential space ship game, then maybe this game isn't for you. I am flabbergasted that people would rather see rules violations than say a quick, that is illegal, to make for a fair game.

If you did that at a tournament I was TO'ing at you'd get warned and if you continued you'd be DQ'd and sent out of the store. Why do you think it is your duty to interfere in someone else's game? They may or may not know the rules. It is their game and they will figure it out in time anyway.

A fair game is a game where no outside forces interfere with it. See what I did there.

This has absolutely nothing to do with rules violations at all, never mind if they were intentional or not. Go look at the stream from worlds where Alex Davy - you know, the guy who designed this game and helps make the rules, kept silent after watching a vcx fire out of the rear arc without the phantom docked. This was on a Twitch for everyone to see and a top cut game at Worlds.

Do you walk around budding in people's arguments randomly on the street cause you think you are right and you don't want anyone to get away with anything?

Your justification is ludicrous.

Well lucky I will never have you as a TO, because you failed to read and understand that in my examples I was the player Involved. I did watch that game with the VCX, and I thought it was wrong. If the guy has never played against one he is supposedly going to be up to speed on it. It has an auxiliary fire arc, all he might have known is that it works like a fire spray.

Your last paragraph is laughable and I won't respond to such a stupid example.