The "spectators can't point out rules violations" rule is basically designed to aid cheaters.

I think you need to look up the definition of the word design because despite its widespread usage you evidentally don't know what it means. Otherwise you'd be suggesting that the people who wrote the rulebook deliberately put in a rule to help people cheat.

And that'd be in the running for most stupid thing I've ever read on this forum. That honour has some stiff competition, something any forum veteran can attest to.

The rule likely exists to prevent the strident interruptions that have affected past high profile events, such as one where a spectator started lambasting one of the players mid match for being lenient with tokens (I think it was the GenCon regional final where one of the players forgot the ACD token on a TIE phantom).

This is an interesting corner case for me. I do commentary for the X-Wing streams my local game store runs. In the last tournament, I played a dual role as being a judge who can be called through for rulings in addition to my normal job as a commentator. I was called through several times to make rulings on games throughout the stream.

While observing some of the stream games I previously made sure that any 'must' rulings are observed and played through. Any 'may' rulings I let slide because that is up to the players to remember. However, the must rulings in my mind are an absolute and cannot be ignored or missed. Maybe I was in the wrong, all I know is that in future I may just stay out of any ruling full stop.

I usually tell them how they missed a good modification, or made a good or stupid move that's gonna bite them. I quickly remind them of exactly what they should do and point these (mostly fictional) positions in weird statements using my badly emulated voices of famous Star Wars characters (especially droids and Vader)....I simultaneously try and slide their pint towards the edge of the table. That usually works great for everyone involved.

Oh wait, I'm not good enough at all to run my squads at tournaments....so I don't go to them and have no idea how the other half lives.

Ignore me. Carry on.

I suggest people to read the "tournament regulations" when going to a premier tier event.

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/a9/af/a9af1e4a-41d1-4dee-8cc2-a5cedee684bf/x-wing_tournament_regulations_v121_text_version.pdf

Calling a T.O. can disturb the game as an spectator. Keep that in mind.

If both players fail at the responsability of keeping following the rules, its both their fault. Even if one get the short end of the stick.

Nowhere in the regulations, Judges and/or Marshalls should audit every step of every rule in a match. Actually, their jobs is to solve disputes (among other things, sure).

They are spectators, too when they are not exercing their function.

Also, it's the responsability of both players to catch errors.

Wow...

If I am breaking the rules please tell me, I can't believe this do nothing stance people are taking.

If I am playing wrong I want to know, and I want to know right now. If I disagree and my opponent doesn't then I can bring a TO over. In my experience almost all rule breaking us just brain farts and misunderstanding.

I can't imagine getting upset with someone trying to help the game be played correctly.

I don't know where you guys play, but it sounds like toxic environments to me.

In a casual game I 100% will say something to our local guys if they make a mistake(I TO/judge in my area) but at a tournament unless I'm the TO/Judge and see something I won't say anything. This is a game for 2 people. Remember that. At a tournament, you have absolutely no right to get involved in someone else's game for any reason whatsoever. It has nothing to do with toxic environments or anything unsportsmanlike at all. We've all made a mistake here or there. Spectating a game makes it much easier to spot things that are wrong since you aren't the one making the tough decisions in the game.

If you interfere you can mess with someones train of thought at the time and cause them to lose focus. By doing this you are inadvertently giving the other person an advantage.

Rules aren't always being broken due to malicious reasons or ignorance. Sometimes even the most experienced of us forget some interaction during an important tournament game.

I like to bring Airhorns and my Vader voice changing megaphone!! (nooooooooo) or (Impressive, Most Impressive)..

I find it very hard to believe that people would be so easily derailed from their train of thought when an error is pointed out. That actually seems more like they knew that they were trying to get by with an obvious cheat.

If you are going to straight up tell me that, I would ask why you wouldn't want that being brought to attention. Why that something so little as a missed rebel captive (which both sides need to be aware of due to it not being a may) should not be pointed out.

If anything I've had more people thank me for pointing out smaller errors like this then not, usually by both players. But if you wanna keep being social awkward, go for it. If you believe a invalid game should count towards someones overall tournament record, and even possible winning, then so be it. If I missed something like that, and my table partner knew, it would be a hollow victory for me.

should not be pointed out.

Because it's not your place to point out mistakes other people are making in a game. Also the rules clearly state you shouldn't do it.

It's best to stay out of other's games. Missed opportunities are missed opportunities. If you think someone is consistently cheating, I don't think it's wrong to inform a T.O. Otherwise it's best to just watch and learn.

If you think someone is consistently cheating, I don't think it's wrong to inform a T.O.

If someone is actually cheating, then the TO should be informed ASAP.

If people are missing required things, like Rebel Captive maybe the TO should get involved, because it may that one or both are new and don't know that they're doing something wrong. Or perhaps only one is wrong and the other is taking advantage of that. But it again not up to the spectators to point that out.

But other then that, pointing out missed opportunities or better choices is in fact cheating and anyone who does something that should be removed from the event.

But other then that, pointing out missed opportunities or better choices is in fact cheating and anyone who does something that should be removed from the event.

And there in lies the crux of it. This right here is the part that a spectator should not even discuss in near proximity with others around. This could easily become an issue.

It's probably due to my already being in a TO stance at tournaments and that most local players know I am as well that it isn't an issue. But I can see that how some might believe pointing out mandated things as "rude".

It just introduces another layer, I mean what if it's your friends game and you happen to point out his missed trigger but then 'accidentally' forget to point out his opponents?

The players and TO shouldn't have to deal with trying to work out if your 'helpful' interference in the match is actually you trying to rig the result. Just butt out and let the players play the game.

Wow...

If I am breaking the rules please tell me, I can't believe this do nothing stance people are taking.

If I am playing wrong I want to know, and I want to know right now. If I disagree and my opponent doesn't then I can bring a TO over. In my experience almost all rule breaking us just brain farts and misunderstanding.

I can't imagine getting upset with someone trying to help the game be played correctly.

I don't know where you guys play, but it sounds like toxic environments to me.

In a casual game I 100% will say something to our local guys if they make a mistake(I TO/judge in my area) but at a tournament unless I'm the TO/Judge and see something I won't say anything. This is a game for 2 people. Remember that. At a tournament, you have absolutely no right to get involved in someone else's game for any reason whatsoever. It has nothing to do with toxic environments or anything unsportsmanlike at all. We've all made a mistake here or there. Spectating a game makes it much easier to spot things that are wrong since you aren't the one making the tough decisions in the game.

If you interfere you can mess with someones train of thought at the time and cause them to lose focus. By doing this you are inadvertently giving the other person an advantage.

Rules aren't always being broken due to malicious reasons or ignorance. Sometimes even the most experienced of us forget some interaction during an important tournament game.

The role of the judge is not to officiate the match but to resolve questions or players disputes among others per the faq. Ultimately, it is the players responsibility to bring the issue up. Interrupting a game could mess with train of thought and cause time delays if people now how to explain to an outsider what is going on. Besides there is not a judge for every game so it is unreasonable to assume every game is played to the same standard if the judge is actively involved so having only one game with more scrutiny while the others do not is not fair to everyone involved.

Great examples are the ffg worlds judges who provide judgement calls such as in arc when the players don't agree but are passive to the main action.

As a side note, always be wary of how far a whisper can travel. Usually I'm in my bubble when I play, but I've had instances where a subtle whisper reached my ear, pointing out something that I could have done differently, and then influenced my game afterwards.

Wow...

If I am breaking the rules please tell me, I can't believe this do nothing stance people are taking.

If I am playing wrong I want to know, and I want to know right now. If I disagree and my opponent doesn't then I can bring a TO over. In my experience almost all rule breaking us just brain farts and misunderstanding.

I can't imagine getting upset with someone trying to help the game be played correctly.

I don't know where you guys play, but it sounds like toxic environments to me.

In a casual game I 100% will say something to our local guys if they make a mistake(I TO/judge in my area) but at a tournament unless I'm the TO/Judge and see something I won't say anything. This is a game for 2 people. Remember that. At a tournament, you have absolutely no right to get involved in someone else's game for any reason whatsoever. It has nothing to do with toxic environments or anything unsportsmanlike at all. We've all made a mistake here or there. Spectating a game makes it much easier to spot things that are wrong since you aren't the one making the tough decisions in the game.

If you interfere you can mess with someones train of thought at the time and cause them to lose focus. By doing this you are inadvertently giving the other person an advantage.

Rules aren't always being broken due to malicious reasons or ignorance. Sometimes even the most experienced of us forget some interaction during an important tournament game.

The role of the judge is not to officiate the match but to resolve questions or players disputes among others per the faq. Ultimately, it is the players responsibility to bring the issue up. Interrupting a game could mess with train of thought and cause time delays if people now how to explain to an outsider what is going on. Besides there is not a judge for every game so it is unreasonable to assume every game is played to the same standard if the judge is actively involved so having only one game with more scrutiny while the others do not is not fair to everyone involved.

Great examples are the ffg worlds judges who provide judgement calls such as in arc when the players don't agree but are passive to the main action.

While I agree with this, Alex Davy and Chris Beck commented that they couldn't say anything unless they were a judge so that would mean if a judge saw the same thing - in this case it was Kanan shooting out of rear arc with primary AFTER the phantom had been deployed, he would and should stop the incorrect event.

I suggest people to read the "tournament regulations" when going to a premier tier event.

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/a9/af/a9af1e4a-41d1-4dee-8cc2-a5cedee684bf/x-wing_tournament_regulations_v121_text_version.pdf

Calling a T.O. can disturb the game as an spectator. Keep that in mind.

If both players fail at the responsability of keeping following the rules, its both their fault. Even if one get the short end of the stick.

Nowhere in the regulations, Judges and/or Marshalls should audit every step of every rule in a match. Actually, their jobs is to solve disputes (among other things, sure).

They are spectators, too when they are not exercing their function.

Spectator

A spectator is any individual at a tournament not actively engaging in another role. Spectators

must not disturb an ongoing game, and cannot provide any input or assistance to players during

their games

Also, it's the responsability of both players to catch errors.

I don't buy this argument one bit. If a person is designated as a judge for a tournament, that means they ARE actively engaging in a role other than spectator for the ENTIRE tournament. Their judge status doesn't turn on and off as rules questions come up.

This is an interesting corner case for me. I do commentary for the X-Wing streams my local game store runs. In the last tournament, I played a dual role as being a judge who can be called through for rulings in addition to my normal job as a commentator. I was called through several times to make rulings on games throughout the stream.

While observing some of the stream games I previously made sure that any 'must' rulings are observed and played through. Any 'may' rulings I let slide because that is up to the players to remember. However, the must rulings in my mind are an absolute and cannot be ignored or missed. Maybe I was in the wrong, all I know is that in future I may just stay out of any ruling full stop.

I think that's absolutely warranted. All players are responsible for maintaining a legal game state, and if the current game state is not legal, judges have every right to intervene.

It would really piss me off, or leave me feeling like **** to know me or my opponent were doing something wrong and someone knew and said nothing. If I learnt in a major tournament I was doing an interaction wrong and it gave me an advantage I would feel so terrible that I cheated my opponent.

I hope I never play in a tournament where people like most of you in this thread would let that happen. I would gladly take a person being wrong when they question something in my game for the times someone could be correct and fix something that was being played incorrectly.

I am not talking about missed opportunities, I am talking this being done incorrectly.

I played my first game with a tie sf with com really taking evade actions because I just assumed the tie sf had the evade action I felt physically sick after that game when I realized how much I cheated... Correct me as soon as you notice.

If a judge watches a player violate the rules of the game and does not intercede without being asked then that judge is failing at being a judge.

It doesn't matter if judges can't be everywhere and see everything, that should not mean that they ignore the things they do see. Passive judging in which judges watch rules get broken and do nothing is an absolutely terrible standard.

Spectators being able to intercede in a game, or even being able to stop the action to get a judge, is a whole different issue. But any tournament official that is watching a game a sees rules being played incorrectly should absolutely intercede. Judges absolutely should officiate the games as they are watching them. Stating the judges should not get involved unless asked by a player is saying that a judge should just stand there and watch a player possibly cheat, and do nothing about it unless his opponent notices as well. That is a terrible idea.

As a side note, always be wary of how far a whisper can travel.

Decloaking can be tricky that way.

:V

I suggest people to read the "tournament regulations" when going to a premier tier event.

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/a9/af/a9af1e4a-41d1-4dee-8cc2-a5cedee684bf/x-wing_tournament_regulations_v121_text_version.pdf

Calling a T.O. can disturb the game as an spectator. Keep that in mind.

If both players fail at the responsability of keeping following the rules, its both their fault. Even if one get the short end of the stick.

Nowhere in the regulations, Judges and/or Marshalls should audit every step of every rule in a match. Actually, their jobs is to solve disputes (among other things, sure).

They are spectators, too when they are not exercing their function.

Spectator

A spectator is any individual at a tournament not actively engaging in another role. Spectators

must not disturb an ongoing game, and cannot provide any input or assistance to players during

their games

Also, it's the responsability of both players to catch errors.

I don't buy this argument one bit. If a person is designated as a judge for a tournament, that means they ARE actively engaging in a role other than spectator for the ENTIRE tournament. Their judge status doesn't turn on and off as rules questions come up.

This is an interesting corner case for me. I do commentary for the X-Wing streams my local game store runs. In the last tournament, I played a dual role as being a judge who can be called through for rulings in addition to my normal job as a commentator. I was called through several times to make rulings on games throughout the stream.

While observing some of the stream games I previously made sure that any 'must' rulings are observed and played through. Any 'may' rulings I let slide because that is up to the players to remember. However, the must rulings in my mind are an absolute and cannot be ignored or missed. Maybe I was in the wrong, all I know is that in future I may just stay out of any ruling full stop.

I think that's absolutely warranted. All players are responsible for maintaining a legal game state, and if the current game state is not legal, judges have every right to intervene.

Well straight from ffg this is how they describe a judge,

"A judge’s responsibilities include assisting players to resolve disputes and answering questions regarding the game’s rules."

They did not describe it as officiating games to ensure rules are correctly played. Besides, a judge is only human and can make mistakes too. So imagine a situation where a judge points on one players error and corrects it but happens to miss the other players error later on. Now you injecting bias and unfairness if the judges full attention is not given fairly. And what about the other games? Why give scrutiny to only one game when errors could be occurring on the table on the other side of the room. See the problem if you are actively engaged?

and if the current game state is not legal, judges have every right to intervene.

Is anyone saying otherwise? Because if they are I think they're wrong. A judge can and should intervene when they see something that is breaking the rules. Which of course is different from optimal play.

But if you are not a judge, then no you don't have any place pointing out what you think are rules violations to the players.

and if the current game state is not legal, judges have every right to intervene.

Is anyone saying otherwise? Because if they are I think they're wrong. A judge can and should intervene when they see something that is breaking the rules. Which of course is different from optimal play.

But if you are not a judge, then no you don't have any place pointing out what you think are rules violations to the players.

DecisionFire and Amraam01 are both suggesting that a judge must not intervene unless asked to by a player. I think that's wrong.

My philosophy is, "If you see something, say something," with the caveat that if you are a spectator, you can only say it to the judge and not directly to the players.

Correct me as soon as you notice.

That's fine for you, but you don't get to force everyone else to abide by your opinion on the matter. And again there are the actual rules that says you can't do it.

So how about spectating what looks like casual games on Vassal? I do point rules violations out in these situations. And missed triggers too. But only after they are really missed. (Something like, for next round remeber you have gunner o that ship). Is this bad form?

I've got a friend that's pissed that he was winning a match...until the guy's friend shows up and starts pointing things out and helping his strategy. The friend started pointing out all the traps and such my friend (J-bot) was trying to lay. He's still angry about that.