My response was sufficient imo.

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

Lol. "You flew really bad, get out."

Yeah, it'd be awkward, but it really is up to the TO to keep the competitive setting actually competitive. Allowing new players the chance to play in a competitive setting is great, and the points structure for Armada *usually* starts pairing them against each other starting in the second round. So then you have both players that "flew really bad." No collusion.

Now if a player at a higher table flies his ships right into the jaws of his opponent without taking any shots, or was ramming the majority of his ships into each other when there was clearly open space elsewhere, or making a beeline for the edge of the board, that'd be throwing the match. They're an experienced play at a higher table in a later round. Going for the 9-2 or 10-1.

But I do understand the community's reaction to the post. Based on Skycakes description, I wouldn't say he was actually colluding, and I've already said the OP was pretty harsh. I'm more inclined to Dueces' interpretation. If his opponent had whiffed, I'm sure Sky's description would sound something more like what any of Dras' opponents would say when he whiffs in a big way. "I took a gamble and my opponent got unlucky. And his unluckiness also contributed to my luck." Or something like that.

From Google (emphasis added by me):

Sorry, this isn't "textbook" collusion, as that requires some sort of two person agreement.

What you're clearly upset about is a player deliberately playing the game poorly, but that isn't against the rules.

I don't think the particular issue you are highlighting happens as often as you think it happens.

While I agree that FFG's tournament structure, regulations, and overall resolution could be better, I believe that you are overreacting to something that isn't really an issue.

Asserting that tournaments are only won by luck of the opponents you draw or a kingmaker way down the charts is somewhat insulting to the players who often win based on skill.

The tournament regulations for Armada have been similar since day 1. The structure of worlds was known a long time in advance.

If you don't like the way organized play is organized, the solution for you is simple. Don't play.

Go in for some disorganized play.

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

Lol. "You flew really bad, get out."

Yeah, it'd be awkward, but it really is up to the TO to keep the competitive setting actually competitive. Allowing new players the chance to play in a competitive setting is great, and the points structure for Armada *usually* starts pairing them against each other starting in the second round. So then you have both players that "flew really bad." No collusion.

Now if a player at a higher table flies his ships right into the jaws of his opponent without taking any shots, or was ramming the majority of his ships into each other when there was clearly open space elsewhere, or making a beeline for the edge of the board, that'd be throwing the match. They're an experienced play at a higher table in a later round. Going for the 9-2 or 10-1.

But I do understand the community's reaction to the post. Based on Skycakes description, I wouldn't say he was actually colluding, and I've already said the OP was pretty harsh. I'm more inclined to Dueces' interpretation. If his opponent had whiffed, I'm sure Sky's description would sound something more like what any of Dras' opponents would say when he whiffs in a big way. "I took a gamble and my opponent got unlucky. And his unluckiness also contributed to my luck." Or something like that.

I spent over 110 points for an Imperial class star destroyer, which rams everything in its path, including my own ships if they refuse to get out the way. At which round should I be kicked out for not carrying how many times I by repair crews rammed it? It's not like the Star Destroyer took any damage, and they can survive three hits!

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

okay, you drop and that gives your opponent 8 points. how does that fix anything?

Well, for one, you drop BEFORE the next rounds are paired. Don't be like the several players at Gencon who showed up at the start of every round to concede their match and then go do other stuff before coming back for next round. They did this to get the participation card and the second participation card "for finishing all the rounds." All this did was deny their opponents games and gave out a bunch of free 8 point wins. This is the kind of nonsense I can't believe is tolerated in premiere tournaments.

I think you have a problem with players, not the game.

Yes, that is exactly right. I have a problem with players who ruin the integrity of tournaments through concessions and through points-gifting. I love Aramada. But compared to X-Wing its tournament structure is not great, and this is especially so when players participate in behaviors that disrupt the integrity of the points system and when the rest of the community doesn't think it's an issue at all. That compounds the issues with a tournament scoring system that is already less than ideal.

I don't think anyone necessarily disagrees with you but there is almost little or nothing to be done about it. Everything you have pointed out could be done in X-wing.

Well, there are some pretty big problems with the analogy. Namely, in X-Wing, you play about twice the number of games. Also, in X-Wing, there's a cut to the Top 32 or the Top 16, at which point it becomes single elimination. Also, and most importantly, in X-Wing, a win is a win is a win and it equals 1 point. In Armada, some wins are worth almost twice as much as other wins and ten times as much as some losses. So all wins are not equal. Throwing a game of X-Wing you were going to lose anyways doesn't chance the opponent's tournament points, they still get only 1, but in Armada it can give them +4 more points than they would have gotten--that can be a huge swing, especially when only a point or two separates a pack of players. So no, this kind of stuff can't really happen in X-Wing.

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

Lol. "You flew really bad, get out."

Yeah, it'd be awkward, but it really is up to the TO to keep the competitive setting actually competitive. Allowing new players the chance to play in a competitive setting is great, and the points structure for Armada *usually* starts pairing them against each other starting in the second round. So then you have both players that "flew really bad." No collusion.

Now if a player at a higher table flies his ships right into the jaws of his opponent without taking any shots, or was ramming the majority of his ships into each other when there was clearly open space elsewhere, or making a beeline for the edge of the board, that'd be throwing the match. They're an experienced play at a higher table in a later round. Going for the 9-2 or 10-1.

But I do understand the community's reaction to the post. Based on Skycakes description, I wouldn't say he was actually colluding, and I've already said the OP was pretty harsh. I'm more inclined to Dueces' interpretation. If his opponent had whiffed, I'm sure Sky's description would sound something more like what any of Dras' opponents would say when he whiffs in a big way. "I took a gamble and my opponent got unlucky. And his unluckiness also contributed to my luck." Or something like that.

I spent over 110 points for an Imperial class star destroyer, which rams everything in its path, including my own ships if they refuse to get out the way. At which round should I be kicked out for not carrying how many times I by repair crews rammed it? It's not like the Star Destroyer took any damage, and they can survive three hits!

If that's your strategy, then that's your strategy. And I've used it before too, on a singular ship at a time to act as an emergency brake. But what I was talking about was ramming your non-flotillas into your ISD, multiple times, with the clear intent of trying to help your opponent take it out of the game. I believe you misunderstood my argument, and I should have clarified sooner.

What is the chance of this happening or being "caught"? Very little to none. Smurf already pointed out and I agreed that policing collusion/game throwing is nearly impossible. But for the sake of developing a forum community consensus of what it means to collude, I used a hyperbolic example. I realize it probably won't happen, but I believe it contributed to our development of understanding. Better?

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

Lol. "You flew really bad, get out."

Yeah, it'd be awkward, but it really is up to the TO to keep the competitive setting actually competitive. Allowing new players the chance to play in a competitive setting is great, and the points structure for Armada *usually* starts pairing them against each other starting in the second round. So then you have both players that "flew really bad." No collusion.

Now if a player at a higher table flies his ships right into the jaws of his opponent without taking any shots, or was ramming the majority of his ships into each other when there was clearly open space elsewhere, or making a beeline for the edge of the board, that'd be throwing the match. They're an experienced play at a higher table in a later round. Going for the 9-2 or 10-1.

But I do understand the community's reaction to the post. Based on Skycakes description, I wouldn't say he was actually colluding, and I've already said the OP was pretty harsh. I'm more inclined to Dueces' interpretation. If his opponent had whiffed, I'm sure Sky's description would sound something more like what any of Dras' opponents would say when he whiffs in a big way. "I took a gamble and my opponent got unlucky. And his unluckiness also contributed to my luck." Or something like that.

I spent over 110 points for an Imperial class star destroyer, which rams everything in its path, including my own ships if they refuse to get out the way. At which round should I be kicked out for not carrying how many times I by repair crews rammed it? It's not like the Star Destroyer took any damage, and they can survive three hits!

Your repeated red herring fallacy is obnoxious. I think you're intentionally misrepresenting what's been said, but in case you actually have failed to understand the point, let me put it out there again more bluntly:

No one is saying players should be kicked out by a TO for playing badly. What has been said is that players should not go around gifting their opponent points they wouldn't have earned in an intentional effort to give them more tournament points to try and place above where they otherwise would have, which is exactly what SkyCake has said his intentions were in his decision. I'm not even saying SkyCakes should be reprimanded or punished, I'm just saying he and other players should not do that in the future because it undermines the tournament structure.

Because something is difficult to police or enforce in practice, it doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage one another to stop doing it. And it doesn't mean it's any less unfair to do just because it can't be nabbed by an official policy whenever and wherever it occurs.

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

Lol. "You flew really bad, get out."

Yeah, it'd be awkward, but it really is up to the TO to keep the competitive setting actually competitive. Allowing new players the chance to play in a competitive setting is great, and the points structure for Armada *usually* starts pairing them against each other starting in the second round. So then you have both players that "flew really bad." No collusion.

Now if a player at a higher table flies his ships right into the jaws of his opponent without taking any shots, or was ramming the majority of his ships into each other when there was clearly open space elsewhere, or making a beeline for the edge of the board, that'd be throwing the match. They're an experienced play at a higher table in a later round. Going for the 9-2 or 10-1.

But I do understand the community's reaction to the post. Based on Skycakes description, I wouldn't say he was actually colluding, and I've already said the OP was pretty harsh. I'm more inclined to Dueces' interpretation. If his opponent had whiffed, I'm sure Sky's description would sound something more like what any of Dras' opponents would say when he whiffs in a big way. "I took a gamble and my opponent got unlucky. And his unluckiness also contributed to my luck." Or something like that.

I spent over 110 points for an Imperial class star destroyer, which rams everything in its path, including my own ships if they refuse to get out the way. At which round should I be kicked out for not carrying how many times I by repair crews rammed it? It's not like the Star Destroyer took any damage, and they can survive three hits!

If that's your strategy, then that's your strategy. And I've used it before too, on a singular ship at a time to act as an emergency brake. But what I was talking about was ramming your non-flotillas into your ISD, multiple times, with the clear intent of trying to help your opponent take it out of the game. I believe you misunderstood my argument, and I should have clarified sooner.

What is the chance of this happening or being "caught"? Very little to none. Smurf already pointed out and I agreed that policing collusion/game throwing is nearly impossible. But for the sake of developing a forum community consensus of what it means to collude, I used a hyperbolic example. I realize it probably won't happen, but I believe it contributed to our development of understanding. Better?

When someone gets kicked out of a tournament mid game for intentionally throwing it, is that full MOV for their opponet? Or does the opponet get a loss too because we can't reward the player trying to lose?

I want to point all my ships off the board to DQ my opponent. Please make this happen.

This is a good discussion...

On a positive note, FFG did have bounties for wins each round. I know it's not the same but there was some incentive to keep trying.

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

Lol. "You flew really bad, get out."

Yeah, it'd be awkward, but it really is up to the TO to keep the competitive setting actually competitive. Allowing new players the chance to play in a competitive setting is great, and the points structure for Armada *usually* starts pairing them against each other starting in the second round. So then you have both players that "flew really bad." No collusion.

Now if a player at a higher table flies his ships right into the jaws of his opponent without taking any shots, or was ramming the majority of his ships into each other when there was clearly open space elsewhere, or making a beeline for the edge of the board, that'd be throwing the match. They're an experienced play at a higher table in a later round. Going for the 9-2 or 10-1.

But I do understand the community's reaction to the post. Based on Skycakes description, I wouldn't say he was actually colluding, and I've already said the OP was pretty harsh. I'm more inclined to Dueces' interpretation. If his opponent had whiffed, I'm sure Sky's description would sound something more like what any of Dras' opponents would say when he whiffs in a big way. "I took a gamble and my opponent got unlucky. And his unluckiness also contributed to my luck." Or something like that.

I spent over 110 points for an Imperial class star destroyer, which rams everything in its path, including my own ships if they refuse to get out the way. At which round should I be kicked out for not carrying how many times I by repair crews rammed it? It's not like the Star Destroyer took any damage, and they can survive three hits!

Your repeated red herring fallacy is obnoxious. I think you're intentionally misrepresenting what's been said, but in case you actually have failed to understand the point, let me put it out there again more bluntly:

No one is saying players should be kicked out by a TO for playing badly. What has been said is that players should not go around gifting their opponent points they wouldn't have earned in an intentional effort to give them more tournament points to try and place above where they otherwise would have, which is exactly what SkyCake has said his intentions were in his decision. I'm not even saying SkyCakes should be reprimanded or punished, I'm just saying he and other players should not do that in the future because it undermines the tournament structure.

Because something is difficult to police or enforce in practice, it doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage one another to stop doing it. And it doesn't mean it's any less unfair to do just because it can't be nabbed by an official policy whenever and wherever it occurs.

What's obnoxious is talking about hypothetical theory that can't ever be put into practice because you're mad that a tournament structure rewarded spite. Ironically I don't believe I can convince you of this so here we are in the thread and I'm just pointing my posts at people just having fun while denying them the effort posts they so wanted to reply against.

Oh no. I've become an allegory.

This is a good discussion...

On a positive note, FFG did have bounties for wins each round. I know it's not the same but there was some incentive to keep trying.

They did this at Worlds, and despite going 0-4 I ended up with two of them because opponents didn't want them/they were abandoned at the tables.

In SkyCake's defense I think what he meant is that he wasn't going to simply turtle and eek out a small win/loss/MOV. He was going in guns a blazing as a strategy. I could be wrong but that's not collusion.

That's Han Solo running in after some stormtroopers.

This is a good discussion...

IS it? Is it really?

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

Lol. "You flew really bad, get out."

Yeah, it'd be awkward, but it really is up to the TO to keep the competitive setting actually competitive. Allowing new players the chance to play in a competitive setting is great, and the points structure for Armada *usually* starts pairing them against each other starting in the second round. So then you have both players that "flew really bad." No collusion.

Now if a player at a higher table flies his ships right into the jaws of his opponent without taking any shots, or was ramming the majority of his ships into each other when there was clearly open space elsewhere, or making a beeline for the edge of the board, that'd be throwing the match. They're an experienced play at a higher table in a later round. Going for the 9-2 or 10-1.

But I do understand the community's reaction to the post. Based on Skycakes description, I wouldn't say he was actually colluding, and I've already said the OP was pretty harsh. I'm more inclined to Dueces' interpretation. If his opponent had whiffed, I'm sure Sky's description would sound something more like what any of Dras' opponents would say when he whiffs in a big way. "I took a gamble and my opponent got unlucky. And his unluckiness also contributed to my luck." Or something like that.

I spent over 110 points for an Imperial class star destroyer, which rams everything in its path, including my own ships if they refuse to get out the way. At which round should I be kicked out for not carrying how many times I by repair crews rammed it? It's not like the Star Destroyer took any damage, and they can survive three hits!

Your repeated red herring fallacy is obnoxious. I think you're intentionally misrepresenting what's been said, but in case you actually have failed to understand the point, let me put it out there again more bluntly:

No one is saying players should be kicked out by a TO for playing badly. What has been said is that players should not go around gifting their opponent points they wouldn't have earned in an intentional effort to give them more tournament points to try and place above where they otherwise would have, which is exactly what SkyCake has said his intentions were in his decision. I'm not even saying SkyCakes should be reprimanded or punished, I'm just saying he and other players should not do that in the future because it undermines the tournament structure.

Because something is difficult to police or enforce in practice, it doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage one another to stop doing it. And it doesn't mean it's any less unfair to do just because it can't be nabbed by an official policy whenever and wherever it occurs.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing whole heartedly but what people are pointing out is that you can't really control player behavior. If someone wants to throw a game you can't stop them. Every tournament structure has its give and take. Yes, X-wing has straight wins but that means you can get far farther by sheer luck of the draw and someone can still throw a game if they get frustrated. It also would't work well in Armada since tabling is far more rare, straight wins/losses will lead to a race to kill one ship and then run.

To sum it up it the opposite of the popular saying - Hate the player, don't hate the game.

You can't really fix the issue of throwing a game unless you have a TO stand at the table and decide when its not worth playing anymore and that takes the choices out of the players hand and completely disregards the possibility of dice rolls and underdog wins dictated by capitalizing on mistakes.

People are disagreeing with you not because you don't have a valid concern, your feeling alone make it valid to some extent, but you presented an issue that basically has no solution.

He doesnt have a valid concern.

The Armada community is fantastic. No one is intentionally throwing games. Making baseless accusations is a quick way to destroy the community.

So yes I fundamentally object to every single word in his post. This didnt need posting and I am deeply disappointed that it has been. I would like an apology from AWSB, but know we wont get one.

In SkyCake's defense I think what he meant is that he wasn't going to simply turtle and eek out a small win/loss/MOV. He was going in guns a blazing as a strategy. I could be wrong but that's not collusion.

That's Han Solo running in after some stormtroopers.

If I feel I'm losing with my current tactics, going YOLO and rolling as many dice as I can for a round is completely justified - and FU to anybody who has a problem with it.

He doesnt have a valid concern.

The Armada community is fantastic. No one is intentionally throwing games. Making baseless accusations is a quick way to destroy the community.

So yes I fundamentally object to every single word in his post. This didnt need posting and I am deeply disappointed that it has been. I would like an apology from AWSB, but know we wont get one.

I'm starting to think I've been active far too sporadically recently and I get the feeling that there's some ongoing issues I might have stepped in the middle of...

https://cdn.meme.am/images/11316697.jpg

He doesnt have a valid concern.

The Armada community is fantastic. No one is intentionally throwing games. Making baseless accusations is a quick way to destroy the community.

So yes I fundamentally object to every single word in his post. This didnt need posting and I am deeply disappointed that it has been. I would like an apology from AWSB, but know we wont get one.

I'm starting to think I've active far too sporadically recently and I get the feeling that there's some ongoing issues...

This isnt the first terrible thread from AWSB

He doesnt have a valid concern.

The Armada community is fantastic. No one is intentionally throwing games. Making baseless accusations is a quick way to destroy the community.

So yes I fundamentally object to every single word in his post. This didnt need posting and I am deeply disappointed that it has been. I would like an apology from AWSB, but know we wont get one.

I'm starting to think I've active far too sporadically recently and I get the feeling that there's some ongoing issues...

This isnt the first terrible thread from AWSB

No worries.

He doesnt have a valid concern.

The Armada community is fantastic. No one is intentionally throwing games. Making baseless accusations is a quick way to destroy the community.

So yes I fundamentally object to every single word in his post. This didnt need posting and I am deeply disappointed that it has been. I would like an apology from AWSB, but know we wont get one.

I'm really sorry Ginkapo.

I didn't realize that quoting someone who literally spelled out their exact intentions and thought process behind it would constitute a "baseless accusation." I can see why you would think that, though, so I deeply apologize. I just wanted to make the competitive Armada community better because we've lost a lot of good players locally over the past year because they feel Armada is only viable as a casual game but doesn't have enough legs to stand on as a competitive tournament game. I never wanted to cause any disappointment or strife in this community, so for that I am sorry. How does one go about requesting a thread be locked?

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

I agree in theory, but conceding means a 10-1 win for your opponent, so it's the most egregious form of feeding possible.

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

I agree in theory, but conceding means a 10-1 win for your opponent, so it's the most egregious form of feeding possible.

Dropping after a round (before pairings) doesn't award a concession to anyone. (Also, just for the record, a concession is a 8-0, not a 10-1)

(Also, just for the record, a concession is a 8-0, not a 10-1)

Unless the Game State says otherwise.

He doesnt have a valid concern.

The Armada community is fantastic. No one is intentionally throwing games. Making baseless accusations is a quick way to destroy the community.

So yes I fundamentally object to every single word in his post. This didnt need posting and I am deeply disappointed that it has been. I would like an apology from AWSB, but know we wont get one.

I'm really sorry Ginkapo.

I didn't realize that quoting someone who literally spelled out their exact intentions and thought process behind it would constitute a "baseless accusation." I can see why you would think that, though, so I deeply apologize. I just wanted to make the competitive Armada community better because we've lost a lot of good players locally over the past year because they feel Armada is only viable as a casual game but doesn't have enough legs to stand on as a competitive tournament game. I never wanted to cause any disappointment or strife in this community, so for that I am sorry. How does one go about requesting a thread be locked?

Dude... You are coming off way to aggressive and acting like someone killed your child after they whooped your ass in a game of plastic spaceships. Might want to tone it down.

Otherwise, I understand what you are trying to get at. People should not throw games, especially at Worlds. You are taking SkyCakes quote so literally, you are acting as if it is a fact. Did you watch the game? Was there collusion? SkyCake even said he tried to take down some ships to swing it back in his favor. Seems to me like he simply lost too much and was in a bad positions and lost everything.

Calling out collusion of players is not something to **** around with. If you meet a stranger at a tourny, and he throws everything into your fleet and you kill it all, was he feeding you points or trying to win? Do you know their play style? Do they have as much experience as you? You cannot answer these questions, and don't even bother trying to impose them on someone else. Should SkyCake have conceded the game instead since he was losing?

Should I concede to deny my opponent a 10-1 and drop them to a 8-3 during the final round? Or should I suck it up, even when everyone knows I will lose by an MOV of 300+, and have good sportsmanship and finish my game? Because this is the hard counter to your argument. At what point is something collusion, if the players did not have a plan ahead of time?

More importantly, if you think there is collusion going on, discretely tell a TO and don't make a scene about it like you are now. If you are not capable of that, perhaps you should stop playing Armada and go back to X-Wing, since you like that tournament structure more. No one wants to deal with your negative bull, and especially when you are attacking someone.

Also, throwing a tantrum is NOT collusion. Not appropriate, but, not collusion. Buddy is getting his heinie kicked and starts sulking and playing badly? That is a bad sport, not collusion.