I wanted to refrain from derailing the "Push to Cut to Top 4/8" thread by creating a separate discussion space for a response I feel is very important to Armada Tournament Integrity. In that thread, it was stated by Skycake that:

Agreed, after having two meh games and only reaching 11 points, I felt like the odds of making it were slim and that I would need two 10-1's to have a chance... so third game after it became apparent I was going to lose, I chucked everything at my opponent so he could get as many points as possible... it actually seemed unsportsmanlike at that point to save some of my ships to get a4-7 or a 3-8 seeing how at that point there was no chance for myself and my opponent would need all the points he could get to have a shot at top two.... if there was a top four it would have completely changed things

This is disgusting and ruins the integrity of tournaments for everyone, and I've seen it happen too many times now. "Well, I can't make it, so here have a ton of free points so you can screw everyone else above us over!" This is collusion, plain and simple. If that opponent you just fed points to had been a close friend, then it's clearly collusion out of personal bias, but even if that opponent is a total stranger, it's still collusion to just decide to give them a bunch more free points than they had earned because "someone from our table" should have a chance.


I, for one, am sick and tired of seeing players at the Top Table in an Armada tourney play an incredible final round game against one another with a narrow win, only to see them both drop to something like 3rd or 4th because goons down on like table nine are getting 10-1 wins in that final round. This sort of situation occurred at three of the four Store Championships / Regionals I attended last season, and it happened at Origins. This is disappointing enough when it happens through unintentional goonery, but it's really aggravating when it happens because one of those players on a lower table decides to give a ton of free points to their opponent to try and catapult them upwards into a position they wouldn't have attained without the "gift." Sure, it's nice to help your last round opponent out, but it's a really sh*tty thing to do to the person on Table 2 who busted their bum for a win and now is getting leap-frogged by some sour grapes kingmaker.


This is the kind of reason as to why you'd have to be crazy to get on a plane to go play an Armada tournament. The winner of any tournament with over 30 people will always be the one who pulled the overall easiest match-ups in early rounds to curbstomp 10 and 9 point wins. If you happened to get paired Round 1 against a high-level opponent with a great fleet, even if you get a narrow 6/5 or 7/4 win, you've probably just dropped out of the running for the most part. It's even worse when you find other players are feeding opponents more points than they deserved, as that gives huge unfair advantages to some players but not others.


I am disappointed. I am offended.

Cool story bro

Cool story bro

No one does the short response like Gink.

I personally wouldn't do it as I always try to do my best and prefer to minimise a loss....but I don't have an issue with someone doing this at all.

It's the same as the random draw from 1st round...if you're lucky enough to have someone do this for you then great. Never actually experienced it or seen it happen though.

Each to their own. It's your game....do as you see fit...as it's almost impossible to police anyway.

Cool story bro

TIL Ginkapo likes collusion.

I also learned that Armada's tournament structure is even more of a ******* joke than I thought it was, and I say this as someone who won their Store Championship, was Runner-Up at their Regional, and made Day 2 at Gencon but dropped my spot to go play in X-Wing instead.

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

Cool story bro

No one does the short response like Gink.

Epic.

I personally wouldn't do it as I always try to do my best and prefer to minimise a loss....but I don't have an issue with someone doing this at all.

It's the same as the random draw from 1st round...if you're lucky enough to have someone do this for you then great. Never actually experienced it or seen it happen though.

Each to their own. It's your game....do as you see fit...as it's almost impossible to police anyway.

This sort of behavior is literally textbook collusion, which I don't feel like I should have to remind everyone is expressly forbidden by FFG Tournament Regulations.

The fact that it's embraced with such apathy by the community is eye-opening.

Really don't read into it so much. Most of the times the idea of giving up points is kind of just spoken of after the fact, sort of as a coping mechanism (not saying that this was really the case) but you can't really dictate how people prefer to play the game. If someone want to go out in a blaze of glory and try to kill as many ships as possible even with no hope of victory, you basically have no ability or chance to prove/stop him from doing it. Might as well let it go and try to have fun playing a game that is awesome because you have zero chance of doing anything about it.

Collusion between two players to farm points is completely different though...

I agree with the sentiment, but that was some pretty harsh verbiage.

Collusion absolutely goes against the spirit of the game in the tournament setting, and is actually expressly forbidden in the regulations, but Smurf is right in that it's nearly impossible to police...unless someone posts it in an online forum for everyone to see.

Why are we apathetic?

Because whining, tirading and otherwise making a big deal of it, does nothing.

There are policies, procedures, and feedback mechanisms in place.

Use them, as you are warranted to do, if its a big deal.

Especially since your "avenue of redress" in the case has been verbalised as a personal attack, which is, of course, against Forum Regulations.

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

okay, you drop and that gives your opponent 8 points. how does that fix anything?

This is an issue with the math at FFG. I think all TO's would have a hard time judging a person on how they attacked a fleet to collude. I mean, in skycake's example, he charged into his opponents fleet. Would you have wanted the TO to look at that move and say "wait a minute, it would behoove the tourney for you to skirt the edge of the map to force a 6-5..."

This is a slippery slope, so be careful how you tred....

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

okay, you drop and that gives your opponent 8 points. how does that fix anything?

Well, for one, you drop BEFORE the next rounds are paired. Don't be like the several players at Gencon who showed up at the start of every round to concede their match and then go do other stuff before coming back for next round. They did this to get the participation card and the second participation card "for finishing all the rounds." All this did was deny their opponents games and gave out a bunch of free 8 point wins. This is the kind of nonsense I can't believe is tolerated in premiere tournaments.

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

okay, you drop and that gives your opponent 8 points. how does that fix anything?

Well, for one, you drop BEFORE the next rounds are paired. Don't be like the several players at Gencon who showed up at the start of every round to concede their match and then go do other stuff before coming back for next round. They did this to get the participation card and the second participation card "for finishing all the rounds." All this did was deny their opponents games and gave out a bunch of free 8 point wins. This is the kind of nonsense I can't believe is tolerated in premiere tournaments.

I think you have a problem with players, not the game.

Why are we apathetic?

Because whining, tirading and otherwise making a big deal of it, does nothing.

Tirading, as you call it, can draw attention to an issue others may not realize is an issue at all.

Apathetic because many have just shrugged their shoulders and explicitly or implicitly condoned such "point-fixing" behavior. I mean, look, multiple posters in this thread have explicitly stated that they don't think the behavior in question is problematic at all.

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

Lol. "You flew really bad, get out."

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

okay, you drop and that gives your opponent 8 points. how does that fix anything?

Well, for one, you drop BEFORE the next rounds are paired. Don't be like the several players at Gencon who showed up at the start of every round to concede their match and then go do other stuff before coming back for next round. They did this to get the participation card and the second participation card "for finishing all the rounds." All this did was deny their opponents games and gave out a bunch of free 8 point wins. This is the kind of nonsense I can't believe is tolerated in premiere tournaments.

I think you have a problem with players, not the game.

Yes, that is exactly right. I have a problem with players who ruin the integrity of tournaments through concessions and through points-gifting. I love Aramada. But compared to X-Wing its tournament structure is not great, and this is especially so when players participate in behaviors that disrupt the integrity of the points system and when the rest of the community doesn't think it's an issue at all. That compounds the issues with a tournament scoring system that is already less than ideal.

Why are we apathetic?

Because whining, tirading and otherwise making a big deal of it, does nothing.

Tirading, as you call it, can draw attention to an issue others may not realize is an issue at all.

Apathetic because many have just shrugged their shoulders and explicitly or implicitly condoned such "point-fixing" behavior. I mean, look, multiple posters in this thread have explicitly stated that they don't think the behavior in question is problematic at all.

Have you reported it appropriately?

TIL that trying to win the game is colluding.

Why are we apathetic?

Because whining, tirading and otherwise making a big deal of it, does nothing.

Tirading, as you call it, can draw attention to an issue others may not realize is an issue at all.

Apathetic because many have just shrugged their shoulders and explicitly or implicitly condoned such "point-fixing" behavior. I mean, look, multiple posters in this thread have explicitly stated that they don't think the behavior in question is problematic at all.

I wish more opponents would concede to me in a tournament.

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

okay, you drop and that gives your opponent 8 points. how does that fix anything?

This is an issue with the math at FFG. I think all TO's would have a hard time judging a person on how they attacked a fleet to collude. I mean, in skycake's example, he charged into his opponents fleet. Would you have wanted the TO to look at that move and say "wait a minute, it would behoove the tourney for you to skirt the edge of the map to force a 6-5..."

This is a slippery slope, so be careful how you tred....

I'm saying if you don't want to play any more, figure it out between rounds and drop.

And obviously there's a big difference between playing aggressively because you know you need to win big to have a shot in the tournament, and saying "I'm out of the running so I don't care any more, here have a free 10-1".

Guys, if people intentionally throw games, the tournament system plain *doesn't work*. Maybe you don't like OP's tone, but the gist of what they're saying should be totally uncontroversial. Don't intentionally feed your opponent points.

Welcome to one of many problems with Armada tourneys. With 3-4 matches deciding the champ, matchups are still the most important part of dong well if you are a decent player and this is one issue that really can't be policed. Somewhere in the tourney I needed a very high score to have a chance at doing well so I went all-in, high-risk, knowing I could lose big. The end result isn't much different than the above situation and would be hard to determine if shenanigans are at play in either. Also, How is this any different than someone facing an opponent that refuses to engage? I saw it happened a few times at Worlds and we all know that you simply can't launch yourself at the turtle-flyer or you going die!!

One of a multitude of problems with the tourney structure.

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

okay, you drop and that gives your opponent 8 points. how does that fix anything?

Well, for one, you drop BEFORE the next rounds are paired. Don't be like the several players at Gencon who showed up at the start of every round to concede their match and then go do other stuff before coming back for next round. They did this to get the participation card and the second participation card "for finishing all the rounds." All this did was deny their opponents games and gave out a bunch of free 8 point wins. This is the kind of nonsense I can't believe is tolerated in premiere tournaments.

I think you have a problem with players, not the game.

Yes, that is exactly right. I have a problem with players who ruin the integrity of tournaments through concessions and through points-gifting. I love Aramada. But compared to X-Wing its tournament structure is not great, and this is especially so when players participate in behaviors that disrupt the integrity of the points system and when the rest of the community doesn't think it's an issue at all. That compounds the issues with a tournament scoring system that is already less than ideal.

I don't think anyone necessarily disagrees with you but there is almost little or nothing to be done about it. Everything you have pointed out could be done in X-wing. Everything you pointed out could be done in any game. There is almost no solution unless you want to make Armada a computer game and get rid of the human element.

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

okay, you drop and that gives your opponent 8 points. how does that fix anything?

This is an issue with the math at FFG. I think all TO's would have a hard time judging a person on how they attacked a fleet to collude. I mean, in skycake's example, he charged into his opponents fleet. Would you have wanted the TO to look at that move and say "wait a minute, it would behoove the tourney for you to skirt the edge of the map to force a 6-5..."

This is a slippery slope, so be careful how you tred....

I'm saying if you don't want to play any more, figure it out between rounds and drop.

And obviously there's a big difference between playing aggressively because you know you need to win big to have a shot in the tournament, and saying "I'm out of the running so I don't care any more, here have a free 10-1".

Guys, if people intentionally throw games, the tournament system plain *doesn't work*. Maybe you don't like OP's tone, but the gist of what they're saying should be totally uncontroversial. Don't intentionally feed your opponent points.

If you have players at the top throwing games, then you have a bad tournament structure. If it's the players at the bottom, who cares? You honestly still go all cutthroat when you start 0-2 on the day?

I don't think the snark is warranted. As a sometimes TO, if I caught someone doing this they would be kicked out, no question. If you're having a bad day, then drop, don't intentionally mess with the tournament scoring.

okay, you drop and that gives your opponent 8 points. how does that fix anything?

This is an issue with the math at FFG. I think all TO's would have a hard time judging a person on how they attacked a fleet to collude. I mean, in skycake's example, he charged into his opponents fleet. Would you have wanted the TO to look at that move and say "wait a minute, it would behoove the tourney for you to skirt the edge of the map to force a 6-5..."

This is a slippery slope, so be careful how you tred....

Exactly... not to mention, by charging I could get lucky and destroy another one of his ships... in a tourney, when your down 6/5 or 7/4, and you need big wins to make top two, charging your opponent happens to be your best play... it also happens to be extremely good for your opponent...