Zuckuss: Defender rerolls defence dice, multiple per round - 1 point

Elusiveness- rerolls 1 attack die effectively once per round - 2 points

R7 Agro- rerolls attack dice costing a TL once per round - 2 points

M9G8 - Attacker rerolls one die if TL'D (no cost to trigger), multiple per round - 3 points.

R4B11 - spend a TL to reroll all defense dice - 3 points.

Zuckuss feels pretty inexpensive to me in comparison.

The problem isn't that Zuckuss is 1 point though. In most situations, needing to take a stress token for every die that gets rerolled is enough to balance it. The average Degaroo build has so many discretionary points that having to pay 4 points for Zuckuss wouldn't really change much at all about what makes the list effective.

Zuckuss only really seems broken when the downside of using him can be almost ignored.

I'm not sure that Elusiveness would get taken much even if it was a 0 point EPT.

Also stress Manny. A good old stresshog or the newer stressmule will shut down the entire list for a turn or more.

Only problem is that both Y-wing and ARC are fairly sluggish. Chasing down Manny from across the board is not going to be easy for them, especially as any opponent with an ounce of experience will realise what they are doing and send Dengar to intercept before his GF gets shot up.

The complaint about Zuckuss being underpointed at 1pt seems a touch iffy when you are taking another 40 odd point ship to counteract the downsides of Zuckuss. What is the actual cost for Zuckuss in the Dengaroo build. IE how much are you paying elsewhere to counteract it's disadvantage. Because as I see it a chunk on Manaroo's cost and the fact you can no longer use reds or barrel-roll are all cost above and beyond the 1pt the card costs.

Not sure X/7 or Chardaan refitting all the ships is a good fix... What is fun about the X/7 is that's unique, like A-wing test pilot and Royal guard pilot. Maybe we need some cheaper mods that would help out those ships instead (we already have ordnance fixes, and EPT's for the A-wing, but we could use some more mods to help beef up the interceptors. missile slot mod?)

The only possibly "broken" thing in the list is the combination of everything together. But to be fair, you're playing basically a single 50+ point ship with a 40+ point support ship doing nothing but passing tokens against your opponent's 100 point list. Dengar in that list SHOULD be really good, you're basically spending 100 points on him. If dengar dies, manaroo is usually an easy kill. If manaroo dies, dengar falls over.

Ryad at 32 points really isn't much better than vessery or glaives or any other defender. She really just gets a few extra kturn choices, which is good, but not a HUGE change. What makes ryad good is ptl with a green k-turn. x7 defenders are ALL extremely good becuase they reliably have focus/evade every round backed by 3 agility and 6 health. Realistically, they're good enough that the x7 title really didn't need a -2 point cost to go with the free evades. No way palp is overcosted at 8 points. I'm not sure I agree with the people that say he's completely overcosted, but he's seen in a huge percentage of imperial lists, which is an indication of being really really good. Kinda like x7. You can make arguments whether palp is overpowered or undercosted or not, but there's no way he's undercosted.

The most common ryad lists ALSO have palp. Not always (I've personally preferred triple defenders to palp defenders, but palp defenders are also really good). There were 6 imperial lists in the top 16 at worlds. 5 of them had palp. 4 had ryad (and palp was in all but 1 of the lists with ryad).

Basically, Dengar Zuck OCR4 and a focus giver. Note that the focus giver does not necessarily has to be manaroo, or only a pimped manaroo. The weak point in Nand's list is that countermeasures can be taken out without much impact. Glitterstim is useful, but if you were to have another focus-giver, glitterstim would be overkill. Palob, Kaa'to, Attani Mindlink, Operations Specialist, Outlaw Tech, and the list of focus-givers is only going to increase. A killing machine at half cost, that i think is slightly op. Only time will tell, if someone finds a 50points of focus giving more efficient. The way i see the list now, it is 50 points of virtual waste, even if the list itself works well. Either that or a way to get manaroo or dengaroo to be even better, given that you have 8-10 points to waste. By itself any of the cards or ships is good, only in this particular combination and if it can be properly exploited.

Regarding /x7, i think it is very good, that is why i listed it in tier 1. About palp, i only think they got so far because of the sheer numbers compared to triple defenders. I think a third active ship is better than one modified dice per turn and a passive ship, specially since lambda is weak.

But even if /x7 is good, rebels have miranda, which is also very good, and scums have a lot of other tier 1 options, too. I just think that combo dengar is say, tier 0.9 waiting to be exploited.

The reason Palp is so good is that the concept of Arc Dodgers is that the opponent needs to go out of their way to cover enough angles to even get a single shot off on them given skilled maneuvering. Palp tends to be just enough to shut down that stray shot a good opponent can generate, where 3 active ships allow the opponent to make some progress with those stray shots.

Traditionally, the Lambda's big weakness is that its like an MMO tank without taunt. A smart opponent knows attacking it takes too much effort while the DPS is able to attack freely and not able to threaten effectively enough to matter if its ignored. Palp basically fixes that too.

I just wanted to say that i completely agree with the OP's analysis. Good job man and two thumbs up!

The complaint about Zuckuss being underpointed at 1pt seems a touch iffy when you are taking another 40 odd point ship to counteract the downsides of Zuckuss. What is the actual cost for Zuckuss in the Dengaroo build. IE how much are you paying elsewhere to counteract it's disadvantage. Because as I see it a chunk on Manaroo's cost and the fact you can no longer use reds or barrel-roll are all cost above and beyond the 1pt the card costs.

Maybe the point didn't come across as clear, but the issue i think is the synergy, not zuckuss per se. In fact, overclocked is actually more of an issue, and the whole point of having a focus-giver. And as i replied to the other post, i think the 40-50 points can be better spent in having things other than a pimped manaroo.

Not sure X/7 or Chardaan refitting all the ships is a good fix... What is fun about the X/7 is that's unique, like A-wing test pilot and Royal guard pilot. Maybe we need some cheaper mods that would help out those ships instead (we already have ordnance fixes, and EPT's for the A-wing, but we could use some more mods to help beef up the interceptors. missile slot mod?)

Other than reducing cost, you would have to give something very powerful for very cheap, like a title for 0 points, or something that opens up powerful combinations (like many of the same upgrades in a single ship). As it stands out, the mentioned ships are a class lower than competitive ships. Take the interceptor, for example, allowing two modifications. Maybe right now soontir is outclassed by defenders and black market slicer tools, but as the amount of modifications increase, potential combos will appear. And yes, even then fixed interceptor can't keep up with the times.

The reason Palp is so good is that the concept of Arc Dodgers is that the opponent needs to go out of their way to cover enough angles to even get a single shot off on them given skilled maneuvering. Palp tends to be just enough to shut down that stray shot a good opponent can generate, where 3 active ships allow the opponent to make some progress with those stray shots.

Traditionally, the Lambda's big weakness is that its like an MMO tank without taunt. A smart opponent knows attacking it takes too much effort while the DPS is able to attack freely and not able to threaten effectively enough to matter if its ignored. Palp basically fixes that too.

Hopefully Upsilon will be more of a paladin: A buffer and a threat.

I just wanted to say that i completely agree with the OP's analysis. Good job man and two thumbs up!

Thanks.

Zuckuss in a Dengaroo list will not be fixed.by making him more expensive. The only way to fix it, and I do personally think it needs some adjustments, is to leave him at one point, but limit it to once per round. The point cost stays the same as you still get the stress which I think is fair.

Zuckuss in a Dengaroo list will not be fixed.by making him more expensive. The only way to fix it, and I do personally think it needs some adjustments, is to leave him at one point, but limit it to once per round. The point cost stays the same as you still get the stress which I think is fair.

That is the one thing that I agree that would probably be the most balanced change to Zuckuss if you want to nerf it just for Dengar. There aren't many (if any) competitive ships that can take Zuckuss and shoot twice in a round.

Did FFG make any mistakes? I think Punishing One was a mistake. It has brought the power level up, so now they must play catch up with other factions. And to be fair, one mistake in an otherwise polished and balanced game is acceptable.

The biggest challenge FFG has with X-Wing is simply that, by being a 2-4 ship per squad sized game, a single mistake is enough to potentially invalidate the rest of the game; particularly if that mistake is either in a non-unique ship or one expensive enough to push towards a 2 ship squad. Not a condemnation; just stating why the game has always walked such a precarious line.

Zuckuss: Defender rerolls defence dice, multiple per round - 1 point

Elusiveness- rerolls 1 attack die effectively once per round - 2 points

R7 Agro- rerolls attack dice costing a TL once per round - 2 points

M9G8 - Attacker rerolls one die if TL'D (no cost to trigger), multiple per round - 3 points.

R4B11 - spend a TL to reroll all defense dice - 3 points.

Zuckuss feels pretty inexpensive to me in comparison.

Elusiveness: No one uses. Cost is a stress (similar to zuckuss)

R7 Agro: no one uses except on Tarn (have to spend your TL)

M9G8: Has potential, but we'll see. Cheaper cost compared to the others since you only have to have a TL but don't have to spend it.

R4B11: Like R7, have to spend TL, so pretty much no one uses except on Drea (who's not exactly a common pilot). Though notably it DID show up by a high level player at worlds on dengar in a rather interesting build.

Zuckuss probably feels inexpensive because the others are too expensive and/or too limiting. And realistically if you put zuckuss anywhere besides dengar or the party bus, he doesn't feel so limiting either because the stacked stress is a huge disadvantage.

Basically, Dengar Zuck OCR4 and a focus giver. Note that the focus giver does not necessarily has to be manaroo, or only a pimped manaroo. The weak point in Nand's list is that countermeasures can be taken out without much impact. Glitterstim is useful, but if you were to have another focus-giver, glitterstim would be overkill. Palob, Kaa'to, Attani Mindlink, Operations Specialist, Outlaw Tech, and the list of focus-givers is only going to increase. A killing machine at half cost, that i think is slightly op. Only time will tell, if someone finds a 50points of focus giving more efficient. The way i see the list now, it is 50 points of virtual waste, even if the list itself works well. Either that or a way to get manaroo or dengaroo to be even better, given that you have 8-10 points to waste. By itself any of the cards or ships is good, only in this particular combination and if it can be properly exploited.

Every single other focus giver there is inferior to manaroo. Mindlink with anyone else requires you to lose lone wolf on dengar. Dengar with just infinite focus is significantly worse on both offense and defense than Dengar with infinite focus AND a reroll on every single attack and defense roll. He'll do less damage and die faster. Outlaw tech only works on a red. How many reds are you gonna do when you're massively stressed from zuckuss and OCR4? Operations specialist only gives a focus when someone misses with an attack. So if you want to use it to give dengar a focus, you have to have someone attack before him AND miss. Meaning that ship isn't doing any damage at PS9+. You could try running a cheaper manaroo to get another cheap ship in the list, but without PTl and engine she's gonna be caught and killed far easier, leaving dengaroo focus-less again.

Regarding /x7, i think it is very good, that is why i listed it in tier 1. About palp, i only think they got so far because of the sheer numbers compared to triple defenders. I think a third active ship is better than one modified dice per turn and a passive ship, specially since lambda is weak.

The fact that all 3 imperial lists that made it to the top 8 had palp instead of a third ship would disagree with you. And the one that got into the top 4 only had 1 defender that wasn't even ryad.

Zuckuss in a Dengaroo list will not be fixed.by making him more expensive. The only way to fix it, and I do personally think it needs some adjustments, is to leave him at one point, but limit it to once per round. The point cost stays the same as you still get the stress which I think is fair.

That is the one thing that I agree that would probably be the most balanced change to Zuckuss if you want to nerf it just for Dengar. There aren't many (if any) competitive ships that can take Zuckuss and shoot twice in a round.

And realistically if you put zuckuss anywhere besides dengar or the party bus, he doesn't feel so limiting either because the stacked stress is a huge disadvantage.

Certainly, part of the issue we've seen all year is that they've put a huge number of "stress for profit" upgrades into a faction that was then given a ship that can adjust its primary fire arc 225 degrees on a white or green. In general though, once per round Zuckess is the elegant fix.

Zuckuss in a Dengaroo list will not be fixed.by making him more expensive. The only way to fix it, and I do personally think it needs some adjustments, is to leave him at one point, but limit it to once per round. The point cost stays the same as you still get the stress which I think is fair.

I actually think this is an elegant fix. It still works for his initial attack if he wants but then he doesn't get it for the revenge shot, and doesn't hurt most other hsips that might take zuckuss (would affect a zuckuss tlt hwk as well, which is a less scary build, but not the end of the world to nerf). If dengar does use it on his first shot, higher agility ships with tokens might still be able to take an attack and trigger a revenge shot knowing he cna't zuckuss their greens again.

Seriously? I just don't get some people.

Guys, something has to win. No, it does not mean it's broken and it does not mean it needs fixing. I'd understand cries to nerf Zuckuss if lists containing him were dominant at the top. But they weren't. There were 3 Dengaroos in top 16, 2 in top 8 and 1 in top 4. A respectable representation of the archetype but hardly dominant.

By the same token I hear cries to nerf Palp since forever and yet he didn't make it to the top table at this World's or the last year's. People tend to look at individual cards in isolation and consider them over or underpriced based on some arbitrary criteria. Individual cards are not fielded though. Entire lists are and as long as we have a varied and unpredictable meta things are fine. After skimming through the World's lists I'm pretty certain X-wing is currently in a good state. We've got a solid, healthy foundation to build on and expand the game. So relax and enjoy it.

Maybe — and I mean MAYBE — you could limit Zuckuss to once per attack. BUT! If you did that, you must still allow the ship to reroll as many dice as they would like. Limiting it to one die, once per round is enough to push it out of the field in favor of other crew members that can do more.

Even still, I don't like the idea of nerfing Zuckuss. You're basically saying, "Let's nerf Dengaroo." But as has been pointed out repeatedly, Dengaroo is a strong list but it is not an auto-win. And maybe we'll see some other focus provider later, but for now it doesn't exist, so there is no need to preemptively nerf this list (or this Dengar build) when there are no other wingmates beside Manaroo. The list clearly takes skill and some luck, just like any good squad should. I don't feel Dengaroo is any more oppressive than x7 Defenders, TLTs, or Dual Aggressors. All of those were power-houses upon release, but their uses have become more nuanced since then.

Also, when has FFG ever nerfed a ship or upgrade right after a tournament? They don't do that. I don't have insider information, but I have to think that part of the reason is that you don't want to invalidate the champion's win by insinuating they had an unfair advantage because of a developmemt mistake. Let's wait and see how Dengaroo continues to do after wave 10. If it — and Zuckuss — are still problematic, we can talk about nerfs, but for now, I think we need to hold on, gather more data, and keep enjoying this awesome game.

I think it's just Manaroo, lol.

In the same light, Palpatine is a problem for ANY ship that can stack AGI Evades Focus Autothrusters etc.

The difference between Manaroo and a Lamdba is that the Lambda is generally wayyyy easier to hunt kill, and can actually be arc dodged to allow players to nearly make it 100% useless, and cant take auto damage illicits, regen crew, or auto damage Astromechs. Also, Manaroo being able to pass TL+F or F+F (or unlimited F with OCR4) can turn into greater rewards than just the single dice modification from Palpatine, especially when the ship being supported has no actions of its own. Id say, Manaroo.is better if your supported ship has no actions, but Palpatine is better when you have stacked actions. Just a single Focus in general can result in 2-4 evades or 2-4 damage with a multiple eyeball roll.

Of course, I could just be salty hehe

But she cannot realistically pass an evade.

Lightrock has a big point, something I think you get a lot out of people. It's almost like a lot of X-Wing players feel like "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down". Or, another way to put it, does anybody think we wouldn't be having this same conversation about say, Rebel Regen or how rebels are broken if Rebels won Worlds again for, what, like the 4th time in a row? Yeah, it's a world championship list, it's probably pretty good. Decent representation at the top cut. But there's obviously some talent to it, otherwise why were the top 4 not all Dengaroos? Why must our immediate assumption when somebody hits on a really high quality list be "this is OP, we need to break some part of it". So okay, you nerf specifically Zuckuss to chip Dengaroo's efficiency down a little, what then? When something starts to rise to the top, will it be broken? There can only be one winner.

Stop just bringing two ships to fight Dengaroo. It withers against TIE Swarms or multiple ships, since Dengar and therefore Msr Zuckass, can only return fire once per round. Fire on it 5 or 6 times, and D&Z can just look out the window at all the laser blasts coming in.

Fly effectively and keep as many ships out of the arc as possible, stay spread out but in range. When new things come out, just because the tactics that worked before don't work any longer doesn't mean the new thing is overpowered. It just means we need to adapt.

Uh, what? Dengaroo obliterates TIE Swarms.