11 hours ago, Geodes said:

Thank you both.

It would indeed be powerful to allow three chosen face up cards with Dodonna. That is a situation no large ship wants to undergo. Imagine drawing projectors misaligned first and then allowing the rest of your damage to waltz through with a few extra choice crit cards.

To clarify, projector misaligned from an APT is worked out prior to other the other damage hitting shields/ being redirected etc?

2 minutes ago, GammonLord said:

To clarify, projector misaligned from an APT is worked out prior to other the other damage hitting shields/ being redirected etc?

Since the critical effects are resolved in the order they are flipped, an APT with PM damage card would drop their highest shield hull to zero, then the rest would apply.

17 minutes ago, Geodes said:

Since the critical effects are resolved in the order they are flipped, an APT with PM damage card would drop their highest shield hull to zero, then the rest would apply.

Well, kind of.

Critical Effects are resolved when they are targeted to resolve... If they happen at the same time, then its in the order of your choosing...

Critical effect timing is generally immediately at the start of the Damage step, after you've resolved the enemy's defense tokens... APT is a face up card, so the face up card is applied then and there, immediately, when you declare it.

When you declare XX9s for example, they immediately take effect, too - but their actual effect is "The First two Damage cards dealt are Face up".

APT is that first damage card. Whether it resolves first or second. The first card of the attack was dealt face up.

Because you're not resolving the rest of the damage until after that anyway, after you've tallied damage and applied brace, etc, etc, etc.

Its... retroactively stupid when you consider it that way - but that's the way it is by FAQ fiat invulnerability, effectively... because that's how it works with the Default - you can't effectively resolve the APT first and then "The first card is face up" second, and say the first card doesn't count because it was already dealt. Its still the first card of the attack, one way or another.

But certainly, if you were combining, say, APT and Ion Cannon Batteries for example (You can't on any existing ship, but anyway), if you were targeting the Hull zone with the highest shields, rolled a blue and black crit, decided to resolve the APT first, and threw a projector misaligned - your Target zone would have no additional shield to lose...

But you might also have the flip-side that if you resolved the ICB first, and it punted the shield off the zone - that zone might no longer be highest - only tied for highest - and when the Projector Misaligned APT crit hits.......... The Enemy chooses a different zone amongst the tied zones to lose... (because, say, you shot the nose of an AFMK-II who was otherwise undamaged) - and of course, assuming they don't have a Command token to lose...

You declare it, then resolve it.

Roll Dice

Resolve Attack Effects
Attacker spends ACC results here to lock Defense tokens from use

Defender Spends Defense Tokens
Evade and Scatter happen immediately, Brace, Contain and Redirect happen later, but have to be spent here. Rerolls due to Evade that result in 'ACC' cannot be spent to lock tokens down, as that timing has passed.

Determine Critical Effect
Contain takes effect here

Calculate Damage Total
Brace takes effect here

Distribute Damage
Redirect takes effect here.

22 minutes ago, Geodes said:

Since the critical effects are resolved in the order they are flipped, an APT with PM damage card would drop their highest shield hull to zero, then the rest would apply.

I don't think he was asking for the order of the critical effects, but rather whether the regular damage from the attack is applied before or after resolving the effects of damage cards dealt by APM. The answer is, of course, after.

1. Resolve critical effects (assuming Fire Control Teams):

1a. APM: deal faceup card (Projector Misaligned), resolve it immediately (shields drop)

1b. XX-9: the next card dealt will be faceup

2. Apply damage:

2a. As shields are 0, damage from the attack goes straight to hull: draw damage cards

2b. The first of these drawn cards (i.e. the second card dealt by the attack overall) is drawn faceup due to XX9 and resolved immediately.

EDIT: Goddamnit, @Drasnighta . Infuriating .

1 minute ago, DiabloAzul said:

EDIT: Goddamnit, @Drasnighta . Infuriating .

To be fair, on this timing issue.

You had posted your reply before my Edit was finished, which added the same information as you......

So apparently, in this case, @DiabloAzul s resolve before @Drasnighta s do , only you see Drasnighta's effect actually take place first at the end..

KIND OF LIKE THE APT + XX9 THING WE'RE DISCUSSING....

...

... Dammit. I'm XX9 in that comparison.

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Well, kind of.

Critical Effects are resolved when they are targeted to resolve... If they happen at the same time, then its in the order of your choosing...

Critical effect timing is generally immediately at the start of the Damage step, after you've resolved the enemy's defense tokens... APT is a face up card, so the face up card is applied then and there, immediately, when you declare it.

When you declare XX9s for example, they immediately take effect, too - but their actual effect is "The First two Damage cards dealt are Face up".

APT is that first damage card. Whether it resolves first or second. The first card of the attack was dealt face up.

Because you're not resolving the rest of the damage until after that anyway, after you've tallied damage and applied brace, etc, etc, etc.

Its... retroactively stupid when you consider it that way - but that's the way it is by FAQ fiat invulnerability, effectively... because that's how it works with the Default - you can't effectively resolve the APT first and then "The first card is face up" second, and say the first card doesn't count because it was already dealt. Its still the first card of the attack, one way or another.

But certainly, if you were combining, say, APT and Ion Cannon Batteries for example (You can't on any existing ship, but anyway), if you were targeting the Hull zone with the highest shields, rolled a blue and black crit, decided to resolve the APT first, and threw a projector misaligned - your Target zone would have no additional shield to lose...

But you might also have the flip-side that if you resolved the ICB first, and it punted the shield off the zone - that zone might no longer be highest - only tied for highest - and when the Projector Misaligned APT crit hits.......... The Enemy chooses a different zone amongst the tied zones to lose... (because, say, you shot the nose of an AFMK-II who was otherwise undamaged) - and of course, assuming they don't have a Command token to lose...

You declare it, then resolve it.

This being knows waaay more than me on this subject^^

Just now, DiabloAzul said:

I don't think he was asking for the order of the critical effects, but rather whether the regular damage from the attack is applied before or after resolving the effects of damage cards dealt by APM. The answer is, of course, after.

1. Resolve critical effects (assuming Fire Control Teams):

1a. APM: deal faceup card (Projector Misaligned), resolve it immediately (shields drop)

1b. XX-9: the next card dealt will be faceup

2. Apply damage

2a. As shields are 0, damage from the attack goes straight to hull: draw damage cards

2b. The first of these drawn cards (i.e. the second card dealt by the attack overall) is drawn faceup due to XX9 and resolved immediately.

So does this being^^

@DiabloAzul Before you had mentioned that just one black crit could result in two face up damage earlier, right? Or did I misunderstand that as well?

In the instance of APT and XX9, only one Critical Symbol is needed to "trigger" both with Fire Control, as long as it is a Black Critical.

Criticals only require the Presence of a CRIT symbol of the appropriate Colour.. They are inherently not Spent or Discarded unless the Effect tells you to - and at this point in time, NO CRITICAL EFFECT tells you to... (Dodonna's Pride tells you to do something similar to that, but not the same thing...)

A Single Black Crit fulfills it for both the Black Crit needed APT, and the any-colour XX9

7 minutes ago, Geodes said:

This being knows waaay more than me on this subject^^

So does this being^^

@DiabloAzul Before you had mentioned that just one black crit could result in two face up damage earlier, right? Or did I misunderstand that as well?

What I meant is that Fire Control Teams lets you resolve an extra "critical effect", but does not require you to roll an extra crit icon on the dice to do so.

Crit icons are not "spent" when triggering effects. They just need to be present in the attack pool.

So for example a single black crit icon could trigger both the APT effect and the XX-9 effect, for two faceup cards. In the absence of XX-9, it could trigger the default effect - but it wouldn't do anything, as "the first damage card dealt by this attack" is the one from APT, which is already faceup.

Colour requirements for crits still apply - a single black crit won't let you resolve Overload Pulse, for example.

EDIT: Again, Dras? This is getting silly.

1 hour ago, DiabloAzul said:

EDIT: Again, Dras? This is getting silly.

This is why I pretty much bow out of brand new questions over here unless

1) I disagree with Dras,

2) I know he's not around, or

3) it's one of those subjects he avoids.

It's just not worth it for both of us to spend the time answering it when the one of us who doesn't let nasty PMs get to us could instead be over in the main forum arguing with chodes.

And I know he'll pretty much always give a now complete answer than me anyway.

3 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

This is why I pretty much bow out of brand new questions over here unless

1) I disagree with Dras,

2) I know he's not around, or

3) it's one of those subjects he avoids.

It's just not worth it for both of us to spend the time answering it when the one of us who doesn't let nasty PMs get to us could instead be over in the main forum arguing with chodes.

And I know he'll pretty much always give a now complete answer than me anyway.

This seriously made me spit out my Dr. Pepper...

I know it gets repetitive, but it can get a bit convoluted and overwhelming. I've only just started a month or so ago, and want to make sure that when I help locals, help here, or plot my next leet fleet, I am on top of my game. I would really hate someone to clue me in that my understanding of a process/card ruins a fleet dynamic.

9 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

This is why I pretty much bow out of brand new questions over here unless

1) I disagree with Dras,

2) I know he's not around, or

3) it's one of those subjects he avoids.

It's just not worth it for both of us to spend the time answering it when the one of us who doesn't let nasty PMs get to us could instead be over in the main forum arguing with chodes.

And I know he'll pretty much always give a now complete answer than me anyway.

Word! But frankly, what else would I do here? I'm just a rules geek. I don't even play the game.

Y'know, I still didn't get a single nasty PM. Not that my activity level is comparable to yours, let alone Dras's, but I hear there's been so much abuse that one would think I'd have been on the receiving end of some by now.

14 hours ago, DiabloAzul said:

Word! But frankly, what else would I do here? I'm just a rules geek. I don't even play the game.

Y'know, I still didn't get a single nasty PM. Not that my activity level is comparable to yours, let alone Dras's, but I hear there's been so much abuse that one would think I'd have been on the receiving end of some by now.

I've really only gotten one or two. But somehow, inexplicably, Dras is some kind of abuse magnet. Frankly pisses me off.

3 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I've really only gotten one or two. But somehow, inexplicably, Dras is some kind of abuse magnet. Frankly pisses me off.

Heck, I got a hit in the main forum just now - but it was quickly edited to an Apology... So it doesn't really count in the long run

I'm 100% convinced its my writing style.

Somehow I've cultivated the perfect blend of Loveable ****-hole and yet Smug Superiority that gets people's back up as much as not

11 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Heck, I got a hit in the main forum just now - but it was quickly edited to an Apology... So it doesn't really count in the long run

I'm 100% convinced its my writing style.

Somehow I've cultivated the perfect blend of Loveable ****-hole and yet Smug Superiority that gets people's back up as much as not

Cultured ****-slinger?

18 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

I'm 100% convinced its my writing style.

Somehow I've cultivated the perfect blend of Loveable ****-hole and yet Smug Superiority that gets people's back up as much as not

Though if it is writing style then how do I not get pm abuse?

6 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Though if it is writing style then how do I not get pm abuse?

Cause everybody knows it wouldnt be effective? Hah

6 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Though if it is writing style then how do I not get pm abuse?

The bully doesn't get bullied as far as I know

On a serious note: I think Dras gets the pm abuse because he is too good for the forums and some people who want their truth to be absolute are shown wrong by Dras, his explanations are probably the most straightforward instructive ones, I love them